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My point is “ki’lo machshevoysay machshevoseychem…”.
PBA, this is what I meant — it’s a part of G-d’s plan.
PBA, I do not have the time now to bring all the sources. Btw, I hope you know what Chazal said at the end of Sotah about the Ikvesa de”Meshicha. And about the frei country, the Moshiach himself comes from ma’ase Yehudah ve”Tamar, Lot and his daughters, Dovid and Bat Shevah and so forth.
PBA, it is Talmidei Chachomim who know — from ma’amorei Chazal and later Gedolim. Amazing how much you and others were indoctrinated by the Satmar and their fans!
The Medinah(despite the kavonos of the majority of its founders) is a nessecary step in the coming of the Moshiach process.
Shraga, be careful before you passel a heksher. Speak to a big Rov.
ROB, I do not much disagree with your last statement. There is, for sure, a point where it is impossible to support all those people in Kollel anymore and some of them have to go out and get a job. I am just not sure that it already has come to that,objectively speaking, or it is just that the non-Chareidi Israelis do not want to pay for all those people anymore. Plus, they are afraid that if they do not get them now, the Chareidim won’t go to work even when there is indeed no choice.
Just off hand, look in Kesubos 106A where Rav Yosef said that because of decrease in the number of talmidim in comparison to the generation of Elisha he can not daven for a yeshua. Look in perush Rashi on Yeshayah 10:27 that the salvation from Sancheriv came because of increase in limud ha’Torah. Look in Bava Basra 7B that talmidei chachomim are pturim from the defence taxes as their Torah protects them. There is a Gemorah or a Medrash I don’t remember where that one talmid chocham protects 40,000 others. There is a Gemorah in Shabbos, perek Be’ma Madlikin that Malach ha’Moves could not attack Dovid ha’Melech as long as he was learning. When you are done, come for more.
Mamele, Prussian is German. North-Eastern German to be precise.
ROB, it is mefurash in numerous places that more learning bring s more protection. It is one thing to say that one can not impose on others if they do not want the zechusim, but you can not say that it does not matter if 100 people learn or 20,000 learn. Just as you can’t say it is all the same if 2 people gave $20 each to tzedokah or 1000 people gave $5000 each to tzedokah.
ROB, I did state that frum people could have aveiros for which gzeiros could come. Plus, again, your views are against open statements of Chazal.
Btw, about churban ha’Bais — the Gemorah specifically says about the frume that they had sinas chinom between themselves.
ROB, frum Jews also can have aveiros. Plus,do not twist the facts. During the middle ages and the tach ve’tat there were no frei Jews to speak of. Churban ha’Baiys — it is not like the frum got over the head and the tsedukim did not. The Shoah? Most of the Eastern European Jews were probably frei by that time and more were going otd by the day.
ROB, because of your very MO leanings, you choose to ignore the basic HaShkofos ha’Torah! Btw, “when kolo kol Ya’akov be’batei medrashos ve’batei knesios, ein ha’yadaim yedei Eisav…” — just to start. The ma’amorei Chazal are just too numerous to bring here! YES and YES, punishments come because of aveiros!! The Gemoros list which punishments come because of which aveiros.
ROB, I am not saying that only learning protects and it is full-proof — one has to keep other mitzvos proprerly too. The reason why the Gedolim did not insist on kollelim for everybody everywhere in previous doros is most simple — it was economically impossible. Only “koveya ittim” — not true, look in S.A Or.Chaim 156. Nobody has the answer about the Shoah — SHEKER!! Read the Tochechah in the Chumash and remember about the avalanche of otd in Europe. (Btw, about Germany, do not twist the facts! Like I said the otd German Jews were already 2,3,4,5th generations of otd – there is a limud zechus in that) One just has to be willing to see!
ZD, Gemorah in Shabbos says that a young city is more likely to be spared — less years of aveiros. Hence — US and England.
“Rabbi” of Berlin, I am basing myself on statements of Chazal!!! True, there were great Gedolim in Lithuania, but the rest were mostly off the derech. There was a lot of OTD already and more by the day in Poland. In Hungary – a lot of OTD,but a lot of Frum – no wonder threy were spared more. The Russian Jews were anusim. Again, no wonder — more survived. In Germany — they were OTD for doros – a limud zechus.
And I saw a pshat that the reason for the peace of the Jews post WWII is the fact that the WWII was such a big blow that HKB”H has rachmanus even though there are aveiors in Israel and elsewhere.
Sophistry?!? I am basing myself on divrei Chazal!!One of them — if a person sees suffering coming on him, let him check his deeds!
ROB, I would like to point out where you are wrong .
1)There was not a lot of Torah in Lithuania and Poland in the 20-th centuary. There were a couple of yeshivos — a miniscule percentage of the general Jewish population. The people were going or already were off the derech in masse.
2)If not for all the learning in golus, there would have been more pogroms. And in Spain s lot of Jews were busy learning philosophy and sciences instead of the Torah.Chazal said that the Torah protects and bittul Torah can bring on tzaros. We can not always know why things happen, but Chazal and later Gedolim would sometimes tie certain tzaros to certain aveiros.
Akuperma, it is Brisker slander.
SF, according to the conditions of our generations, it is a total necessity.
SF, actually “Pele Yoetz” was an advocate of women’s Torah education.The only possible real be’dieved is learning Chumash be’yiun.
Daas Yochid and the rest, what they mean is that some people in the BY system have distorted (not Torah-true) views. Usually, they are distorted in the right-wing direction. These distortions can be contradictory. And the talmidos are fed this stuff.
Kwaiker(Joe), the parnossah mentioned in the Rambam’s havtochah is not squeezing money out of the unwilling public and causing a major Chillul HaShem. If the Israeli public did not mind, it would be fine.
Sam2, we don’t pasken like that Rambam. Look in Hilchos Talmud Torah in Y.D., in the Shach there.
I know it’s useless to argue with PBA and his friends, but for everybody esle’s info: Rambam did not hold that it applies to ganze Klal Yisroel. And if somebody wants to say otherwise, the S.A. for sure does not pasken like that (O.Ch. 156). Plus, how come the Rosh Yeshivos in Europe in the olden days were not telling everybody just to learn and not worry about parnossah?
Abra Cadabra, Satmar and Brisk lchod and the rest of Chareidim — lchod. Don’t falsify!!
Yytz, see sefer “Chofets Chaim”.
Takamamash, not judging is a Christian virtue. By Yidden, we judge — just according to certain rules.Look in the “Chofets Chaim”.
TKND, so if some Chareidim some place deside that they own all of Australia, that should be respected?
AKUPERMA!!!So what in the world do you say??? That Chareidim can’t work and must be supported by everybody else any place they live? Are you for real?!?!?!?!?
Charliehall, what do you mean by Chareidi isolationism? Separation from the Umos and Reshoei Yisroel is mandated by TANACH and Gemorah in numerous places.
Ah Talmid(Joe), again you are with your lies! Refusal to serve because of learning would not be recognized as conciencious objection — we’ve been through this around here. Plus, Israeli Chareim get money from the medinah in many different ways.
TKND, get your facts straight. The only thing the government is planing to do is to cut the money flow to those refusing to serve. And even if they were planing to put them in jail — this is what countries do to draft-dodgers.
abra Cadabra (JOE!),Stop lumping the names og the Gedolim together as if they were of the same opinion. I don’t know if Chofets Chaim was against Zionism.
LF, yasher koach.
GAW, +1.
Nishtdayngwsheft, to be fair, they are going to patur 1,800 talmidim each year. Plus, nobody here would sponsor tens of thousands adults to learn(le’havdil) basket weaving or racial studies or anything for that matter.
Israeli Chareidi, if the government withdrew all the money the Chareidim get: funding to Yeshivos, subsidies to the poor etc., would the Chareidim be able to stay in learning? And I know, I know — some of those things are open to all Israelis, but, frankly, those other Israelis also do their duties as citizens. And I know — learning is a very great zechus, unfortunately the non-Chareidim don’t want to support all the Chareidim in learning anymore.
Joe,GDTHRYRHBEFWGHJYJTYJRJY!
Secondly,my point is that the arguments have to be sound.You are not impressing anybody here with worthless arguments!
Joe, grow up. You’d say anything and quote anybody just to prove the Chareidim right.
Besides, Kanoi, if they don’t stop the the Chareidim now, it will be impossible to do in the future because of their growing numbers. Even if 40% of the population were Chareidim and there were mamesh no choice but for the Chareidim to serve and work, I am afraid that the Israeli Chareidim are so unreasonable that they would not have gone to work and to serve.
Exactly, LF. You can’t just say that the state would have for sure been a panacea — too many uncertainties and variables there. And then, again, remember the Gamorah in Pesochim.
He actually does – hence less ministers in the cabinet. Stop twisting things just to say that the Chareidim are right.
Because Lapid and others have to pay the bills for them. And even he agrees to patur the best talmidim. And the Chareidim hold that even those who can’t learn, should be in kollel
Lakewood Fellow, the point is that to argue that had there been a state everything would have been great is a poor argument — too many things had to work out just the right way for the Yishuv to be safed. The arguments you are advancing are easy to refute. Hitler could have sent early on — before June 1941– a large force to capture E.Y or he would have sent the nessesary couple of divisions to help Rommel had there been more Jews there.
The IDF brass says they can manage without them, but a lot of stam Israelis fell it is unfair for the Chareidim to be getting money from the State while refusing to do what (in their eyes) is a service to the State — the army duty, or contribute to the common basket by working. They agreee to free a large persentage from the army duty. They pay and they make the rules as to who get sthe money.
The Govermnent says that if someone refuses to serve, he should not get the benefits (except for the 25% of masmidim). That is fair, reasinable and quite generous.
Very good, Kanoi. Working em masse is wrong according to the Israeli Chareidim!!!?!
Kanoi, since you agree that it’s not an inborn right but rather a zechus, you have also to agree/understand that you may not force a zechus on somebody if they don’t want it.
Health, you do not hold of the medinah, but you think that it has an absolute chiyuv to support the Chareidim in kollel. If they don’t hold of the medinah, let them go get a job. In E.Y. or otherwise.
Maybe all frum Jews here in the US should drop their jobs and demand being supported?
Charliehall, yasher koach! Probably, another 3-5 divisions would have been enough for Rommel. The Germans were almost there.
Lakewood fellow, killing Yidden was a matter of high priority to the Nazis and they were moser nefesh to do it. They almost captured Eretz Yisroel. Had there been more troops there, they would have gotten to E.Y. Hitler would have for sure sent more troops if there had been a lot of Jews there. And the German army is a formidable enemy — they are not Arabs.
The Gemorah in Pesochim says that Ribono shel olam did Yidden a favor by dispersing them — their enemies can’t get them in one place. Israel is good to avoid the day-to day persecution in peace time. During the WWII, the IDF would not have been able (derech ha’tevah) to stop the Wermacht.