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that could be that it doesn’t apply for working but for shmoozing in the street it for sure applies (meaning if it’s l’toeles)
sj i’ll post them again
sj, see my comments, i addressed both.
Max Well,
Just to be fair
you were quoting sfardi sources (rambam, shulchan aruch). but it’s true, if the rema doesn’t quote it, you can’t say he holds it!
re: Col Kavoada etc.
1. The MaHari Vayl ruled that we pasken that that Col Kavoda Bas Melech Pinima is not the din. He has an offenna gemora in Gitten. The Ramoh paskened like the MaHari Vayl.
2. The mesorah of B’Nei Ashkenaz is like the MaRi Vayl, witness all the doros where the women ran stores and businesses to support their husbands (incl. many gedolim) learning
mywife 1. who’s the MaHari Vayl
2. where’s this Ramoh
3. that could be that it doesn’t apply for working but for shmoozing in the street it for sure applies (meaning if it’s l’toeles)
ok i understand your logic (i dont agree with it but i understand it)
ok oomis let’s try this again.
when someone asked this goy what are you did he say i’m a goy?
NO! he said i’m a chassid of this rebbe. He wanted everyone to think that (even though he wasn’t really) therefore he “identified himself as BELONGING to that group” even though he didn’t share their hashkafah
here’s the definition from webster’s dictionary online : to cause to be or become identical b : to conceive as united
if you look at b: to conceive as united did people concieve this nazi as united with the chassidim, yes
did he become identical
identical (2nd definition in webster) : having such close resemblance as to be essentially the same
Yes
now do you understand
sof davar,
the chitzonis is meorer the penimis
There is a story of a Nazi who hid out amongst chassidim,and they never realized he was not one of them, until he was recognized by one of his victims. (That story may or may not be apocryphal – I have not checked it out).
that is exactly the point! he identified himself as belonging to that chassidic group even though he wasn’t really a chassid
do you understand now oomis
whatever smartcookie i figured it out from the wolf
thaks a little confusing though
let’s try it If you say so. Not having seen the sefer he’s quoting from, I can only guess at what he means. Since people usually go swimming in a bathing suit and he’s saying it’s assur based on that sefer, I concluded that he meant that it’s assur to see one’s wife in a bathing suit (or, by extension, in any non-tznius fashion). That was my understanding of his statement. Nonetheless, I could be wrong. It wouldn’t be the first time
please explain how to use em tags(ive asked before no one answered) i would greatly appreciate it.
“To be fair, I think he means “dressed in a tznius fashion.”
The Wolf”
“And yes I have a source — the Kedushas Shoshanim perek 17 seif 4 sez yur not aloud to look at yur wife when shes undressed even when tahor.”
it doesn’t sound like undressed means dressed in an untznius fashion
For the 10000000th time: MIXED SWIMMING IS ASSUR. You cant swim mixed – even with yur wife. And yes I have a source — the Kedushas Shoshanim perek 17 seif 4 sez yur not aloud to look at yur wife when shes undressed even when tahor. Unless you swim fully clothed yur oiver on that. Theres no reason to say that theres an exception to mixed swimming with yur wife, just liek theres no exception to lashon hara with yur wife, or eating kosher with yur wife or any other mitzvah.
ummmm. a bathing suit means she is dressed
anyway you’re quoting an obscure source. It’s not in the shulchan aruch, mishnah brurah, tur, taz, shulchan aruch harav, kitzur shulchan aruch it’s called the kedushas shoshanim and you say it’s assur
How many times do I have to repeat myself? When someone identifies themselves as chassidish, of course it doesn’t make him more of a chosid, I only said that wearing chassidishe garb says that this person idendifies himself as belonging to the chassidishe group. DO YOU REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE?????
no they don’t (oomis and wolfish)
moderator,
its kiosk
Reb Mendel of Kiosk
moderator,
you know now everyone thats here got your email adress (if its real) now if i can just find people that need to send chain mail
“I think most people would”
most people would what (i don’t know if youre agreeing or disagreeing)
netz is 5:48
earliest i found on godaven.com is 6 at kaj
mbachur, labels do nothing more than label you for purposes of putting you in a box for the convenience of others
in other words it explains why people write what they write a yeshivish person won’t write what a MO person would
There are certain circumstances where labeling is very helpful (like in a chat room) i totally agree you shouldn’t label kids in school.
But when at work, a chassidish yungerman and a yeshivish yungerman who both have a beard and might have their peyos tied up behind their ears or under their yarmulka or cap, and both have a white shirt and black pants might be harder to distinguish.
Yeshivish yungermen don’t have peyos sooooo long that they can tie them under their yarmulka or cap it only stays as long to put them behind ones ears
I have also seen many Chassidish women walk around the Pool area and even walk from the pool to the beach in their bathing suits without cover-ups in Maimi. Does that mean that it is acceptable among Chassidim for women to do that? Or for women to go mixed swimming in Miami? NOOOOOOOOO! But that doesn’t stop them from doing it when they are away from their daled amos! Is it fair to say that they look down upon us as if WE were goyim and they think it is ok to behave this way in front of goyim? That is the problem with LABELING!
as i’ve said before to wolfish if I see someone wearing a streimel iwould assume the person is chassidish (not exactly a chassid though)
So by not even seeing us or knowing us, by just reading our comments and our opinions, many of you have labeled us MO, Yeshivish, Chareidi, Chasidish for no reason at, especially when labels are completely unnecessary.“labels” define why you write what you write.
a yeshivish person won’t write what a MO would
now i see it thanks
i don’t know why my post wasn’t put in but everyone is saying what i wanted to (which might explain it)
All your posts are up. Send it in again if missing.
how do you make a quote italicized?
“… if I suddenly start wearing a streimel, does that automatically make me a chassid?”
i didn’t think i needed to explain this but i guess i do.
if a goy started to wear a yarmulke does that make him jewish?
no but if people saw him they would automatically assume (incorectly of course) that he’s jewish
there’s an old saying, the clothes make the man
thank you R. Moderator, you portrayed what i was trying to explain perfectly.
MO is whatever anyone who self-declares as MO wants it to be. There was no founding movement with MO, as there was with Chasidus, the Mussar movement and even illigitimate movements like Reform and Zionism.
To some MO means mixed swimming and TV. To others it might mean Torah Umadda. To other MO folks, they reject even that. Since there never was a movement that got together and said “lets start a MO movement” as occured with the other movements I mentioned, there is no authority that can say no, your philosophy is wrong and not MO. Instead, when asked how can you can allow mixed swimming (for example) in your bungalow colony, the answer invariably is “oh, we’re an MO colony.”
wasn’t MO started by followers of The Rav
“Silly me… I thought what group you belonged to was determined by your beliefs and actions. I hadn’t realized that it’s all dependent on your headgear. Please forgive the ignorance.”
no, the headgear is an indication of your beliefs and actions
If you saw a person with a streimel you would say he’s from the chassidic sect (not exactly saying he’s a chassid) a black paper kipah is indicative that you aren’t so observant
wow, i dont know where to start!
wolfish
“MO temple
Subtle jibe?”
that’s what it was called
On re-read, it’s obvious from the previous paragraph that SJS left out “on shabbos” WRT watching TV.
On that count, I have to agree. I know of NO MO rabbi who would allow one to watch TV on Shabbos. Your example above is obviously not relevant since you failed to notice that SJS left out “on shabbos.” (Unless, of course, you think that the presence of a TV in his office means that he’s watching it on Shabbos.)
i don’t get it
1) whats “wrt”
2)how is it obvious
“You want to disallow symbols/words — I can understand that.
You want a minimum size — I can understand that.
You want a particular color — I can understand that.”
i’m not disallowing it, it’s perfectly kosher, it just shows what stream of orthodoxy he’s from
then again I know someone that I would consider MO in the way he was dressed (like wearing a kippah srugah) but he wen’t to a shtark camp and everyone looked to him as the masmid.
“I’ve never heard of a MO Rabbi who says its ok to watch TV (or go mixed swimming in a bathing suit or other things). “
I beg to differ, from the few MO rabbis i know, they would tell you that.
I know a rabbi that has a TV in his office (obviously that gives it a stamp of approval)
I know a different “rav” that was the rabbi of a MO temple and left it to become a rabbi in a conservative school, but that’s not where i’m dealing with, i’ll tell you an encounter i had with him.
I bought something after pesach that had a shayloh if it was chametz she’avar alav hapesach (the store could’ve been jewishly owned), and i asked him because he was a rav of the Kashrut orginazation of the city where the store was located.
He responded what does it matter anyway because IT’S ONLY A D’RABBANAN implying (at least to me) you don’t need to follow d’rabbanans (maybe i’m going overboard but this was how i felt)
Anyway it was taarovos so it was muttar regardless
in other words you could be a yeshiva bachur or even a rav for all i care i’m just dealing with what you are saying (not the person who is sending it)
aries,
I have to mention again,
i for sure don’t think i’m talking to a man/woman when i’m “chatting” i think i’m talking tro a person,
if this was a webchat confrence that would be totally different
aries, (and tzippy too i guess)
no one hears sees or hears the other person for all you know it could be someone else writing
i for sure don’t see a problem in the regard of mixed talking
(remember the chachamim said Kol b’eisha ervah, not the writing of an eisha)
oomis,
may i counter that i wouldn’t be suprised if the women had a hand in the men’s bittul torah (or really lack of kavod torah), if the women were mechashev it the men would follow
wellinformedyid,
there is a well known halacha called mechitzos in a shul. The reason being is because of the sensitivities of the people davening, because Halacha knows that men will get distracted if they are around women. I wouldn’t be suprised that the reason there is no halacha about women congregating the streets is because they didn’t if they did then there would be one, taking into account mens sensitivities.
exactly smile66
(chachmas eesha bansah baysah)
you should have this bracha
well informed yid,
you bring up a good point that he has this problem
but you realize tanaim and amoraim had this taavah too
case 1) the grandson of choni hamagel
case 2,3,4) (sorry i’m horrible at remembering names or where it is in the gemara)when the satan comes dressed as a woman either they would’ve been nichshol not for their torah or one bored his eyes out
definitely the solution isn’t that he shouldn’t go outside b/c he has to (daven, learn etc.)
the answer to women being untzniusdik (out in the open) shouldn’t be that it’s your fault for loking at them
SJSinNYC
correct, but a chatzer was an enclosed area unlike a front yard
sjsinnyc,
the gemara says Kol kvodah bas melech PENIMAH that means inside the house as opposed to outside the house (including chatzer)
In my community actually, there is a weekly shiur that the wives go to and they congregate and shmuz over there, i think it’s the best idea
oomis,
i’ve realized men and women have different definitions for communication.
men communicate to give information
women communicate because they need to talk
Haqer,
why couldn’t they ask their uncle
aries,
that’s a good idea but what yb613 is talking about is girls congregating in the streets I totally agree they should congregate at someone’s house (preferrably one that has no yeshiva aged boys)
kasha,
just on the 24th line it’s interesting to note that bnos tzelofchad went to beis din and their is a whole perek on this
Yechezkel, it for sure depends how they socialize
I know i’m going to be pounced on but im going to say it anyway
Asara kavim sicha yordim l’olam tisha natal nashim
(ten measures of speech came down to the world. women took 9
women need to talk, just like fish need to swim
mbachur: A “frum” person cant go to the beach by definition. (Unless its some unknown separate gender beach where it is completely invisible AND inaccessible to the opposite gender.)
exactly!!! a person who portrays himself as frum in NY but in FL away from everyone else he goes to the beach (hence frum in quotations)
i just heard it means someone who is “frum” but goes to the beach
missme how do you know maybe it was dressed up and you couldn’t see it’s feet
I think they should be tested, and then they can marry other people that are like that.