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This is not too surprising, but I am very sad to say so. About 6 comments so far have ben about what can get a rebbe put in jail, i..e, what secular society believes to be right or wrong. THIS HAS ZERO TO DO WITH OUR MORALITY. Dina dimalchusa dina does not mean we need to take on their ideologies! fakert, it is a terrible avera to take on goyishe attitudes or moral systems. The fact that in public school if a teacher even pats a kid on the shoulder he can get locked up, has zilch to do with us.
That being said, the reason why a rebbe noawadays should not hit a kid lechatchila, is because of the condition of people today, NOT because it’s wrong or assur or anything of the sort. It may be assur to thomasjefferson-ism, but nowhere will you find a torah source saying hitting kids is wrong inherently. The steipler obviously meant that psychologically, people are different today, and hiting does not produce the same positive effects it used to.
Now, the steipler was not, cv’s, influenced by secular ideology – this is how he saw the emes, however, to choose his shita, and ignore everyone else’s, due to your own secular brainwashing, is 100% krum.
Plus, look at all the scum that comes out of public school, and there, they dont hit kids – some off the derech kids may use it as an excuse, but in all fairness, I doubt many kids went off because a rebbe hit them in a way sanctioned by halacha(abuse is in a totally different universe, and the line is very clearly defined between the two, unless you’re a lefty ‘child’s rights’ am haaretz)
oomis – that was a nice story, but i feel i must point out that the difference between a jew and a goy is not merely one of religion, or beliefs.
we are created vastly different from goyim, spiritualy, and somewhat different (acording to the chasam sofer) physically. Unless there is an element of kiddush hashem, giving presents to goyim bechinam, or going to great lengths to do chessed is, at best, not advisable, and at times, assur. For example, by hashovas aveidah there is merely a Heter to do hashova if there is a kiddush hashem – if there is no kiddush hashem, it is assur to return items to a goy. It is however, a chiyuv if there will be a chillul hashem resulting from not returning it.
I coudnt help but feel as if you were equating goyim with jews. Note that you listed together religion, color, etc.. – when torah makes absolutely no difernetiation between people of color or any other color. In religion, too there is no difference(except avodah zara). However, a jew can be a practicing buddhist/christian/muslim, etc…and still be 100% jewish. Not so with goyim – a goy believes in whatver he wants, and is classified as a goy whether he is a sun worshipper or a ben noach, however there are some differences in halacha between an oved avodah zara and a ben noach who is a yoreh shomayim.
also, the torah does not say that you do chessed blindly(chazal say, he who is merciful to the cruel will end up being cruel to the merciful)
as anything else, chessed must be channeled, primarily to yidden. For eample, there is no mitzvah to love goyim, at all. There is no mitzvah to give them tzedaka, only a heter. there is no mitzvah to return their aveidos, only a heter in certain cirumstances. there is no mitzvah to not say lashon hora on a goy, only it is not done since it makes one accustoed to saying it; these are only a few examples.
rabbiofberlin; meshechist-ism began as early as the 60’s. It spiraled out of control later on though, but the beginnings of it were everywhere; just because they werent controlling 770 outwardly then does not mean they did not eist.
I have absolutely no idea where you got this idea from; you probably werent too old in 1980 anyway, if you think this.
joseph, I just checked – rav hutner was niftar in 1980, and the rebbe was niftar in 95 i think; according to rav miller, he was not well in his mind during the last 20-25 years of his life, so this makes sense. Even thoguh this stuff began way before then, however rav miller was being dan lechaf zchus him.
Joseph, I am not going to say anything about Rav Hutner that I have not seen said by him – if you want to know, ask his talmidim. I do know however, that he said this quote. Whether or not he said it during the time when the rebbe was in his right mind really does not matter to me; he said it, and that’s the end of it. Rav Avigdor Miller was the one who was dan lechaf zchus him, remember that, there were those, like the satmar rov, who did not hold that way. I am not on that madrega, and I am being cautious.
Now, re; rav kook – it does not matter to me if you think he was a gadol; the consensus of EVERY other authority was that he was not, or rather, he was a huge talmid chacham, but went off with his zionism. The chofetz chaim held very little of him, as did the brisker rov, reb ahron, reb elchonon, the gerrer rebbe, the satmar rov, and a huge roster of people you know basically nothing of.
You want the gedolim to admit their mistake about the medina – this operates under the assumption that they were mistaken. I forgot of course, that you know more than them. forgive me. Please, tell me who is mistaken – a man who writes about how holy mechalel shabbos soccer players are, because they buy real estate for the sake of a nationalistic entity, which in the words of rav avigdor miller, was the worst thing to ever happen to the jewish people ever(the brisker rov said the same thing), or the entire spectrum of the frum world with the exception of one man who after making the wrong decision was denounced as a rasha and an apikores, at the very elast, by pinacles of shmiras halashon and ahavas yisroel. Rav Kook had no answers to the clear proofs against zionism that the religious zionists churned out – neither do you, and neither did rabbi zimmerman, lamm, rav soleveitchik, or anyone else – did you ever learn vayoel moshe? it should take care of whatever garbage ideas about zionism or the great avodah zara called the medina that you hold above the gedolim.
I wonder what you would say if rav kook was not a zionist…perhaps then, you would take the medina over all the gedolim, after all, acccording to rabbiofberlin-ism, we dont need to listen to the gedolim, but rather we must worship the mighty and holy mind, the individual thinker, the arrogant, secular thinker who thinks for himself(based on what his desires tell him)!
Also, for the record, rav kook would never have agreed with your ideas about emunas chachamim – he also, for the record, wanted women not to vote, and had tznius standards found in hardly any kehilos today, which Im sure you disagree with, being an independent thinker, however this does not stop religious zionist amharatzim from quoting him, without followinh him on his other shitos. They then, become tremendous, irrational machmirim when it comes to things like aliyah(a secular, nationalistic idea which rapes the idea of true yishuv haaretz by instead using it as a ploy to support the medina), and irrational, illogical maikilim when it comes to tznius and women’s ‘rights’, based on, for the record, no shitos(as in, there are no shitos that women can learn gemora, and certainly, rav kook never would have allowed such a thing)
Even though he was a huge talmid chacham; so was korach, and many other poeple who were mistaken. Reb elchonon called him an apikores, the satmar rov said it was assur to read his seforim; you want to follow that shita? well, research the machlokes, if there even was one, and you will see how wrong he was; except rav kook had far more respect for the gedolim than you, especially rav zonnefeld(perhaps the most anti-zionist in the old yishuv), even after the zionism issue.
You blindly follow rav kook – do you know what he based his shitos on? I doubt it. Because any halachik notion he and the entire mizrachi establishment have thought up have been successfully defeated, easily at that. This is because the soton works on emotions mostly, and not reason, so all you have to do is put the fear of holocuasts in a jw’s heart and you’ll have him belieing in the medina(which im sure, like your fellow zionist buddies, you’d ‘die for’, right?)
The odd thing is, most religious zionists will fall into two groups:
A) those who defame universally accepted gedolim, like the brisker rov, reb ahron, rav shach, reb elchonon, and many others who were anti-zionist, especially the satmar rov zt’l. They only defame him the most because he was the only one who wrote a comprehensive sefer on zionism, based on stories which are unverifiable, as well as quotations which are either non-existant or totally misunderstood.
B) when they realize they cant defame them, either because they have some conscious and cannot bring themselves to lie or spread slander, they then begin trying to make it seem like these gedolim were in fact zionists(i once heard on arutz sheva that they claimed that the satmar rov advocated zionism for goyim..feh)
C) ‘divrei elokim chaim’–ists – people who have enough sechel to acknowledge and respect such gedolim, and who say ‘well, we disagree with their shita , and instead we follow rav kook’
C is perhaps the dumbest of all, since the basic idea of eilu veilu, is that you cannot have that concept when one claims the other is wrong. Basically, this means that if Rov A says that rov B is an apikores, that is no longer eli veilu. This idea only works when one may be followed factually, but we say the other was right, because he used torah methodology to reach his conclusion, hence, even though he was factually wrong, he is still ‘right’ in the sense that his ideas were divine.
This is best shown in the gemora which has a shita that moshiach is not coming – obvbiously, we do not hold like this, and it is factually wrong, but it is still divrei elokim chaim, because it was derived through torah methodology.
Zionism, is different. It is a secular, idolatrous(in the words of reb elchonon) movement which some people misguidedly tried to make religious(also reb elchonon, they added religion to avodah zara), with faulty proofs from the torah and a lack of answers to the clear disproofs from the torah, then if a rov comes up with a shita, which the gerrer rebbe said came from ‘rav kook’s ahavas yisroel’, which howver is incorrect, then it is no longer eilu veilu, but simply wrong.
PLease, read vayoel moshe – I can almost guarantee any tainah you have is in there, or if not, it is too elementary to even be dealt with by such an advanced sefer. Also recommended is kovetz ma’amarim by reb elchonon, and michtavim uma’amarim from rav shach.
I find it hilarious that someone would translate emunas chachamim as ‘believe of the sages’, because that really doesn’t mean anything.
The baryonim, were wrong because they went against daas torah – they thought they were right, and they thought they were doing the ratzon hashem. Now, according to norman lamm’s idea, which, I challenge you to find me in any sefer ever written, (not those written by lamm, obviusly), the baryonim were correct – they followed their OPINION on what daas torah was(so rabbiofberlin would say they werent wrong, after all, they had a sevara, and isnt that what’s most important, svara? we cant just blindly follow people like rabban yochanan ben zakkai after all) – now, they disobeyed chachamim, but accoding to norman lamm, they did no such thing – after all, they may have had faith in sages, whateevr that means(I’m really waiting for someoene to define that for me, what can it possibly mean? faith in the ‘idea’ that sages are right? or what? i mean, come on, for a concept in our emunah which is so omnipresent in torah literature, it must mean something which, well, i dont know, the seforim describing it say it means)
So according to mr lamm, the baryonim were not guilty of disobeying the sages, since they had a svara, and im sure if you asdked them they would come up with some sort of psak about it, and their only crime was being wrong in judgment, which they would not have been if they listened to the sages.
Dont you see how ridiculous this is?
In every generation, tghere is always a nisayon. Something which challenges us to have emunah in our leaders, to look to those who are closest to hashem for guidance; first it was avodah zara in the bayis rishon era, then it was tzedukim in the bayis sheni, karaism during galus bavel/yishmael, reform/conservative/haskalah tides in europe, and countless other threats to our people – they guided us through all that, not to mention leading us during WWII; dont you think it’s the least we owe them, to have respect for them, and keep our arrogant mouths shut, being modeh to those who are above us?
If one wishes to argue with the chachamim, my answer to them, is to beocme one – become a rosh yeshiva, a posek, learn for years, have the vigorous lives these gedolim led and lead, open a ketzos instead of your laptop, and then, when you have your own yeshiva and your own daas torah, then you may argue, but by then you’ll agree with them, becauyse you will have seen how right they were all along.
If you were taking your child to have an operation, you would make sure the doctor was trustworthy and knowledgeable in his field, to say the least. You also would not be foolish enought o rely on your own daas in that field, since you know practically nothing compared to the doctor – you certainly would not be dumb enough to take the scalpal away from the doctor and operate in your own, unless of course, you felt that you couldn’t trust the doctor, nevermind his years of education and experience.
Same thing here – we, are not anywehre near the madrega of the gedolim – we think we are, which is probably the greatest indication that we are not, but anyway, we think we know torah well enought o argue with the ‘doctors’ so to speak – and in the end, we end up wanting to do surgery on uor own, which results in norman lamm’s baseless idea, and letters to a website from a man who violates the words of pirkei avos(no surprise then, that he feels comfortable arguing with Rav Belsky) putting down gedolei yisroel.
Gaiva is a poison indeed, and it will lead an otherwhise intelligent person to insanity – all because humans(especially us) have a teva to not admit wrongdoing, or being wrong in one’s opinions.
No one’s talking about questioning gedolim – lo habayshan lomayd. It’s fine to question – to the rov, in order to learn, not behind his back to your balabatishe pals; writing this kind of lashon hora and sinas chinum befarhesya, all while thinking one is correct over a gadol, has nothing to do with wanting to learn. It stems from a feeling that these people feel they have more knowledge than the gedolim, or that they are superior to them in their opinions. People with this attitude think that they are doing what is right for klal yisroel..but rememebr, so did th baryonim, and it was as clear to them as it is to you that the gedolim are wrong and you are right – it’s a nisayon to humble one’s self to daas torah, but it is a chiyuv, and a part of being a ben torah.
Also, I did not say rabbiofberlin was an apikores – sounidng like an apikores has little to do with being one – I was pointing out that apikorsim have a similar if not identical outlook.
Pashuteh yid – you are mistaken. Many people do not sleep in the sukkah, because of the heterim in the shulchan aruch – the controversy with the rebbe had nothing to do with that, he made up a new reason, saying that lubavitcers do not have to sleep in a sukkah, with zero halachik reasoning; he said that they were patur because they are lubavitchers. That is not the heter of the shulchan aruch. That has nothing to do with it being cold outside or the other heterim. the shalosh seudos issue was similar – he changed halacha, and this was part of the reason why so many were against him – it should be known though that rav avugdor miller zt’l said that all of this happened after the rebbe was no longer in his right mind. He himself was a good man – however, the opposition to him was based on outlandish things he said after not being in his right mind(case in point, his quote that a rebbe is ‘the essence of g-d in a body’, which is pure kefirah) – his chassidim did not pick up on this, or they were afraid to oppose him, whatevrt it may be, he himself did not make these mistakes, and it is unfortunate that so many terrible things were and are being done in his name that he was not responsible for.
Rav Hutner famously said, after these and other things came to light in chabad, “Chachmah, Binah, and Daas, they say! Yes, but of course they have no sechel”
The rebbe also said that bais moshiach will be at 770 – you do not have to be a lamdan to be shocked by this, since I am shocked by it, and his other statements, and I am no lamdan.
The satmar Rov in divrei yoel(parshas tzav) calls him, and his followers, tipeshim for believing that moshiach will come when the whole world learns chassidus(since the besht said that moshiach will come ‘when your torahs spread out’, however this was clearly meant relative to that time, as the gemora says about one of the tannaim who met eliyahu hanavi and the latter told him that moshiach is coming today, when he didnt come, eliyahu replied ‘today, if you listen to the torah’)
(of course, I meant nothing against the rebbe himself, but only his statements and ideas after he, according to Rav Miller, was no longer in his right mind)
Rabbiofberlin thinks that he can debate with roshei yeshiva, once more, he accusses them of a crime – he says they reinterpret torah and made up the concept of emunas chachamim, r”l. they are stifling debate with talk of this newfangled concept of emunas chachamim – maybe, just maybe, you need to drop the negius; if you have a kasha on a rosh yeshiva, ask the rosh yeshiva, and maybe he’ll answer you – dont come to a forum with half of its members being amharatzim and spread your garbage.
America, and its ilk, came up with the concept of not taking authrotiy(i.e., hippie movements), and they preach equality, as in, there is no one who cannot be denounced – and you dare accuse roshei yeshiva of making up ideas in yiddishkeit – pumfakert, look at uyour own ‘hashkofa’ – you are taking philosophies straight from american goyim! you, and not them(big surprise) are adding to torah – you’re supposed to rely on roshei yeshiva and gedolim for daas torah, questioning them is fine, but spewing the type of motzi shem ra you ande your kind say, not to mention flat out disagreeing with them, which, lifi the mishnah beruruah is the definition of apikorsus(he says anything against daas torah is apikorsus, but maybe the chofetz chaim r”l changed the torah too – with you, who knows? maybe moshe rabbeinu also changed something to stop korach)
your disagreements, I might add, have no foundation – all you can do is say “I disagree” without articulating your point beyond goyishe reasoning which has no basis in torah.
For the record, I did not call you an apikores – a mechutzaf, perhaps, but I am dan lecahf zchus, and assuming your yatzer hora is simply filling the void in your head with nonsense, to compensate for the lack of learning.
To cantorseq – the concept of emunas chachamim is well-founded in torah literature, norman lamm’s grmmatical ‘diyuk’ if it can even be called that, does not change its definition as defined by chazal. He can wish. and you can too, that the toah fits amerian, democratic values – but it doesnt. plain and simple. Plus, I’ll take the mishnah berurah’s words over those of norman lamm – and who is ‘they’ who take it to mean emunas chachamim? every gadol from every generation? maybe they missed that little diyuk that of all people, normal lamm, caught? come on. you cannot tell me that such a diyuk exists in strength to overrule every single authority from the time of the gemora to the present day – it’s ludicrous.
Ironically, the only way we know grmmatical rules, is from the seforim, which norman lammis saying we dont need to believe – absurd.
I am stunned.
Rav Belsky is a gadol. A rosh yeshiva. A tzadik gomur – how dare you, a ‘shliach’ who undermines two statements in pirkei avos with your very existence(al tifrosh min hatzibur, and the maysoh with the tanna who would not go to a different city, even though they paid him, because there was not torah there), be mored against the head of the yeshiva you have your smicha from!
You ought to have your smicha revoked – no one can call himself a rabbi and say what you said about a gadol betorah.
Pure chutzpah. You answered none of the tainos on chabad’s community – the deification is everywhere, from the meshichisten who control, literally, control the HEADQUARTERS of lubavitch, 770, to the meshuganeh ‘elokisten’ who believe the rebben really is g-d r”l, to the articles in ‘bais moshiach’ magazine about people crying out in prayer to the rebbe asking for help, to the massive chillul hashem posters and ads, not to mention cars with advertisements saying ‘moshiach is here’ all througout eastern parkway and the rest of brooklyn..dont deny the problems in your community. The rebbe, as Rav Avigdor Miller ztvk’l writes, was not in his right mind towards the end, when he said many things which led to the fervor of the meshechisten(such as, ‘the home of moshaich is at 770’, etc..) and it is a shame that a tzadik like the rebbe has such followers and such things being done in his name. The same thing happened to the tzadik Rav Odesser, who, due to his mental state, started the nach nach nachman nonsense – but that was just nonsesne, nothing too dangerous, and nothing apikorsus – what is going on in chabad now needs to be solved, for the good of chabad and klal yisroel.
Rav Belsky simply said something you dont like, because it means admitting a flaw in the community – face it, kiruv is nice, but being mekarev people with rebbe worship is not nice, and that is what will eventually, chas veshalom, take over chabad entirely unless it is solved.
Rav Belsky I am sure is in terrible pain over this – I am, and I am no godol; he is trying to do what is right, and it is painful to say these things – all this, while you sit with goyim and maybe 3 yidden somewhere in the middle of nowehre while sacrificing your family’s living in a stable kehila.
Shame on you. You’d better write an apology.
And to rabbi of berlin – you seriously sound like an apikores. The notion of thinking for one’s self againdt the roshei yeshiva is amrican and secular in the greatest sense – what do you, a balhabas writing on an internet forum, or me, a bochur doig the same thing, know in the face of a gadol beyisroel? your emunas chachamim is, at least it seems, non-existant – show some respect, and know when to keep your mouth shut.
chacham, thanks for pointing that out
Aleen – firsthand I know of a similar maysoh. My rebbe’s brother, a mekubal in brooklyn, and a rov at the bnei yosef shul, told the doctors who were taking care of a comatose woman who had given birth before entering that state, that they needed to examine a certain artery, after he merely looked at her name on the mi sheberach list – sure enough, that artery was clogged, however the surgery was going to be very difficult because of the paitent’s health and other factors; i dont know if she got a refuah shelaima, but this is a more direct example – I too have heard this about the chazon ish, but it’s not too hard to believe..when you learn enough torah, you get a deeper perspective on things in both the ruchnius and gashmiusdige worlds.
I would not recommend buying it on ebay though..it could be a fraud, and there’s no reason to own it anyway, plus it would be impossible to verify if it was really his.
think big – stories certainly can be proof – case in point, the clal of maysoh rov.
However, emunah should not be based on stories at all – thats very dangerous, unless of course, the story happened to you, then it’s different – but there’s nothing wrong with reading stories to give one chizuk..thats what they’re there for
lkaufman – she’s going to college..this is a disaster.
Colleges today are a den of immorality, znus, apikorsus, and kol minei nevola.
Please, this is priority number one right now, if you ask me – if she goes to college, le an ve’es daasi hakoton, she may never come back to the derech – college is basically the kiss of death when it comes to an at-risk-teen’s frumkeit. she’ll meet g-d knows what kind of boys, do g-d knows what with them(college parties are basically sdom x 1000), and learn things that no human being should be exposed to; the damage will be devastating.
Try to get her to go to a ‘open-minded’ or non’judgemental’ seminary, where she may be able to come back.
squeak actually, reb chaim brisker said ‘a nebach an apikores is poich an apikores’ – if you dont know enough to know what we bvelieve in, you’re an apikores by definition and default, albeit a nebach one. every yid has the responsibility to learn..and without learning, your emunah wont be strong, nor will your middos. torah is the spiritual nourishment for all of us, and without learning it, we’re nothing.
everyone has their tachlis though, and i am speaking about learning lefi one’s ability – notg to cv’s put down someone who simply cannot learn well becaue of the brain g-d gave him.
mdlevine – just to clarify, pants are assur for an entirely different reason – they could be baggy and they’d still be assur, for two reasons, namely, many(I think rov) poskim hold that once a garment is beged ish, it stays that way, making pants beged ish, and the second reason is that if it has a split down the midsection/pelvic area it is entirely untznius(see hiow halacha predicted that some am horatzim would say pants are mutar? as in the days of the old generations of misguided ‘modern’ orthodoxy)
that being said..this is disastrous.
rabbiofberlin – anyone who stands against klal yisroel is amalek..
gavra – ‘cooking is an elective, so is useful stuff life computers’
cooking is not useful?
so much hester ponim….we live in a generation of not beleiivng anything without having seen it – im sure you’ve All had hashgacha protis stories of your own, how would you feel if you printed them and someone said ‘feh, i dont have to believe this, let’s see the proof’ – honestly, it’s a maysoh, seforim bring down maysos all the time, and this came from reb chaim kanievsky shlit”a, so if you dont believe it, ask him if he sent such a letter.
better question stories than daas torah I suppose, but still – why all the skepticism?
and what is wrogn with the lesson of killing amelek, it’s a mitzvah deoraysah!! sory if it doesnt ive will with your liberal american, brainwashed idea of morality – but if we knew vevadayus that someonen was from amalek, it would be a mitzvah to kill him.
gevalt..hatzolah too!? I hope to g-d this was an isolated case – a geshmake shabbos is one thing, but when you have one’s life in your hands, thats sakanas nefashos, both of the driver, the people on the road, and the person he’s coming to help
irhakodesh – the general theme was about tochacha, and about voicing opposition to trends or problems that we find in our communities – the poster said we shouldnt do this, since it doesnt accomplish anything..hence the reb chaim i quoted
As reb chaim brisker said..when it hurts, you scream..even if it doesn’t accomplish much, these things bother (or should bother) us enough to scream from the rooftops – we, including myself, dont understand the severity of aveiros and issues that are seen as minor in our community, and you can determine which things are minor with a laser-pointer between materialism and our community – whatever materialsim, i.e., american society, says is wrong, we understand to be wrong, like murder and theft, but when it comes to things we cant see the immediate results of, like lashon hora, tznius, or anything else, basically, 80% of thew mitzvos if not more, we only keep because we know we have to, without understanding how terrible it is.
If someone said about a yid that r”l murdered someone, ‘well, we cant correct him, we cant turn him off to judaism, so let’s just be warm and accepting of his new lifestyle, after all, he’s just expressing himself, and what right do we have to judge others?’
and yet, we find this sentiment by many aveiros that are tantamount to murder, or in the same league. why? because america in all its tumah has had a norediga hashpaah on us – wake up, and see this for what it is – anyone who sits quietly by while klal yisroel suffers from themselves..i feel sorry for.
cherrybim – there is no chiddush in wearniog tzitzis out, it’s just that in certain communities, like the yekies for instance, the yidden were forced to rely on certain heterim and kulos altz sakana because of anti-semitism, this is why they didnt wear yarmulkahs when they were working, and it would explain wearing tzitzis inside too.
The only actual mekor for wearing one’s tzitzis inside, as oposed to the seforim which talk about wearing them outside as a basic idea and pshat in oresem(both the idea of wearing them when it is dayime and seeing them are pshatim in tha posuk), is the arizal, who ive heard said that al pi kaballah one should wear it inside – however, most people today who wear them inside do not know this, nor do they know kaballah..the use it as an excuse to not look too different from goyim
nameless – it sounded like you were saying that the whole idea of women being inside was sick – doing mitzvos outside when necessary is one thing, but it sounded like you were speaking of the whole concept, which is why I responded the way I did.
Also, i dont see how there was gayva in saying that the idea you mentioned is spoken about in mussar seforim as an example of an error – being choshed kesherim is when you know that kesherim are saying something and you are choshid them – here, i have no reason to believe rabbi twerski said anything you were talking about, so I am being choshed your report on what he said, since it flies in the face of chazal – big difference.
also, i wasnt really thinking about other ways of doing things when I wrote about shopping online, it was just an example – in retrospect, you’re right, it was not an advisable thing to do, but I meant that kol kevudah should be kept whenever possible, and thawas just an example of the idea – so I’ll rephrase that by saying that shopping over the phone would be preferable
In shabbos davening, we dopnt have any bekashos tzrachim – same thing on yontif, as a support for the idea that we do not ask for personal trachim on yontif – whether or not there is an issur like on shabbos, it seems the pri megadem says so, so what’s your question?
My opinion is that you try to be makayam kol kevudah whenever possible – meaning, for instance, if you have to buy something, and you’re able to buy it online instead of going to a store, that would be preferable – regarding taking care of children, that’s a separate issue and when a woman does that she is(hopefully) doing a mitzvah of chinuch. Kol kevudah does not mean it’s assur to go outside, it means that women should stay inside as much as possible, and this is how chazal use it in many places in the gemora, as a general rule, that women stay inside, they then quote this pasuk as precedent for whatever ruling they are talking about.
Bekitzur, it’s a wonderful thing to do whenever possible. However the poster’s opinion that it is ‘sick’ is absurd and am haratzus, to say the least, as it is mentioned in most facets of torah(gemora, mishnayos, meforshim, halacha seforim) – this is why women should not learn gemora, the proof is just by reading what this poster wrote – it was filled with misinformation and am haratzus, and I am very surprised at the elementary hashkafic and halachic errors, as these are things that most women know.
Nameless – I fear you have made some more mistakes, gehinnom is at most, a year, unless you did one of the things you dont get out of gehinnom for(even then it’s not eternal, just very long), this is why we say kaddish for 11 months, to be dan lechaf zchus that it wasnt a year, since only a very bad person would get a year, so we do it for 11 instead of 12.
Because hashem is a baal rachamaim he punishes us. This is because gehinnom is a chessed, it’s a way of purifying is for gan eden – this is where we enjoy our maysim tovim and mitzvos, however, as I said before, the reward for mitzvos is 500 times greater than the punishment for aveiros, so it would not be fair to have them cancel out aveiros – it would mean less reward for you.
Also, teshuvah erases mistakes while you are still alive – not after you’re dead, so the idea of erasing misdeeds works even when there is a moment left to life. Once you’re standing for a judgment though, there is no teshuvah – otherwise, no one would go to hell at all, plus, the purpose of life is action, oth good and bad, changing the self – olam haba is stagnant, it has nothing to do with growth, it is what you make it, literally.
Now, I cannot say kol kevudah(the pushut pshat) is a lav, but it is halacha, and is used in halacha all throughout shas and poskim.
I do not remember which mussar sefer disucsses your misconception about din vecheshbon, but I am sure I have seen it addressed as a misconception, i think it was the nefesh hachaim, but i honestly do not remember now.
The story of that baal teshuvah was said over at the shabbos table – it’s a touching, beautiful mayshoh, but I do not what relevance it has to what we were discussing – that man came back, and hence, he did teshuvah, but he would not have been able to do that if he stayed there, as he said himself, all the malachim he made with his averos were there, and once you’re in beis din, there’s no teshuvah anymore – thats only something you can do here, and here, he did it, thank G-d.
Just what is sick about being at home? thats your secular negius talking – women are treated like trash in a society that encourages women being out for the whole world to gawk at(and gawk they do), is that what you prefer? you have been brainwashed by secular society to think that anything that makes a difference between the roles of men and women is ‘mysognisitc’ or whatever – aere you some kind of feminist? honestly, get your mind out of american shtusim and think from a torah perspective – I doubt hashem, who said kol kevudah bas melech penima, meant it to mean belitting women cv’s, aderaba, it uplifts the women to a level of kedushah that is inherent in anivus – you have been sayig some interesting ‘chidushim’ for lack of better word, but you dont even know where kol kevudah is found in the torah, and you expect me to agree with your idea that a pasuk in tehillim is meant as a drush only? there are 5 levels fo undderstanding pesukim, known as pardes: pshat, remez, din/drasha, sod – you’re suing what some use as a drasha for ol kevudah as if it were the entire concept – tell me, have you thought this through before calling hashem, cv’s, cv’s, cv’s, cv’s, ‘sick’? he says this in tehillim(writtn with ruach hakodesh), so I think it is you are have a sickness called liberalism – ain odom choteh ele em cain nichnas bo ruach shtus – and this is, my friend, a ruach shtus.
A gut voch.
also, nameless, I believe you misinterpreted what Rav Twerski said – because emunah 101 is that when we come to shomayim, the din vecheshbon will be absolute, meaning, if you did 100 mitzvos and 10 aveiros, you go to gehinnom to cleanse yourself for what you did wrong – the bad does not cancel out the good and the good does not cancel out the bad. EVERYTHING is taken into account, and a person’s entire being is exposed before him and before Hashem, to be examined – we cant say ‘ok, ill do an aveirah, but then ill do a mitzvah to make it all even!’
I think rav Twerski was speaking about how such an idea is NOT daas torah, since I have heard in seforim that discuss this very idea, how people may think it, but it’s not true.
Plus, it wouldnt be fair if mitzvos canceled out aveiros – the midah tovah is merubah by 500, keneged paranius – meaning, a mitzvah’s reward is 500x greater than the onesh for a sin, but the two are independent of one another, and it would be a detrement to you if it were the way you imagine it.
Nameless,
I believe you are confusing what I said with what the gemora says about the three aveiros that a person loses his olam haba for(well, not qauite – it says that gehinnom runs out before him, which acc. to the maharsha means that he will be in gehinnom for a near infinite amountof time, but not forever) ‘ailu hain yarden vein yaalin’ is the lashon, and it includes a malbin pnei chavero berabim, aishes ish, and one who deos not wear tefillin, but this has no bearing on what I said.
I was referring to excuses that we, with our yatzer hora, make to excuse our actions, and chesrnos, in any area, wehtehr it be tznius, shmiras halashon, bein odom lechavero, dinei mamones, etc..
Kol kevudah is a pasuk in tehillim, firstly. Secondly, chazal use it many, many times as a yesod with the literal idea in action, of women staying at home – yes, al pi musar and drush it refers to middos, but do not sacrifice pshat for drush – the two complement one another, but you cant take one without the other. A pasuk does not mean what you want it to mean – it means what Hashem THINKS. While it’s beautiful to talk about penimuiys in middos, it’s equally beautiful that the akeres habayis be at home as the pasuk says on the pshat level. I am sorry for misunderstood what I said.
nameless – ok, so does that mean we should forget about shabbos too? or when we try to be mechanech our children, we would ONLY follow the amudim????? nonsense.
we should emphasize our efforts based on..the bais hamikdash? where is that yesod found, anywhere, or just in your negius?
To be mazber your kasha, since that is all it was, even though you stated it as if you’re a rishon or something, every dor has its nisyonos – the era of the bayis rishon, had avodah zara that we cannot fathom today(anshei knesses hagedolah were mevatel the yatzer hora for avodah zara that was so hard back then, now it’s normal level), not to mention sinos chinum and the rest of the causes of the churban – however, the causes of other calamities, as documented in the rishonim and achronim, were all different – why? each dor has its nisayon. Our nisyonos today are tznius, secularism, pritzus, assimilation, taiva, money, and others – however the fact that a previous generation had a difficulty in one area hs no reflection on its importance of reinforcement in a different tekufah.
It’s hot. the women need to live with it and understand that their momentary discomfort is not the important thing here – sephardim had it much hotter in the middle east, and they didnt complain, they followed the ratzon hashem..heat was not even a factor in their deciding what to wear, or if it was, it had no reflection on tznius – and you’re going to compare that to our current state? It’s hot – so that means a ‘frum’ woman can become a walking micshol, causing avieros that are tantamount to the murder of one’s children, breakin shalom bayis, causing hirhurm – need I say more? kavannah to be immodest is not the whole of the inyan – the end result is immodesty, whether or not the woman wants to be a prutzah or not – if it looks like a prutzah, in this case, it is.
when a person comes up to bais din shel mayla, all the excuses fade. this is one of them – no one ever died of dressing modest, and women have no reason to be outside all day anyway; kol kevudah bas melech penima.
YGmonsey – you’re 100% right. I ever understood why so many girls ride bikes in flatbush, and rollerblade – it calls attention to them and is certainly not tznius, but I don’t understand what’s wrong with ipods, maybe it’s a chisaron in my own notion of tznius, but I dont see how an ipod is untznius.
willi – I happen to know firsthand that there were two separate writers; I know one of them myself, and he didn’t write the other one.
I have to say, my yeshiva is not like that at all.
I agree that they shouldn’t make students feel bad, but my yeshiva simply does not do that. One of the mailos is that the rosh yeshiva is very big on middos – I’m graduating next week Im yirtze hashem, and I’ve attended the graduations my school has had for the past 3 years. Everyone is awarded – for something tailor made to them. There usually isn’t even a validvictorian; just speeches, divrei torah, awards, and food – like it should be. Every student, even the ones who aren’t graduating, are given some spotlight, and are called up to receive something.
hatbg – what??? Chassidim would never break their minhagim and dress like some american, and I dare you to find me one chassidishe group who did that – just one, because there is no way that is true. MO has normalized greatly in recent generations and what I am about to say has nothig to do with the present-day MO, so please do not take offense – but to claim that the frum world was mostly MO is a odious lie.
If this were so, more gedolim would have been from MO, but where were the gedolim from pre-wwII? Litvishe yeshivos and chassidishe circles. And you go ahead and say that a litvishe rosh yeshiva, like Rav Weismandle, or Reb Ahron, or Rav Hutner, the Rogotchover gaon, the Bais Halevi, or Reb Elchonon, or the giants in the chassidishe world, like The Imrei emmes, the bluzhover rebbe, klozengerger rebbe, the satmar rov, the munkatcher rebbe – were modern! They had tremendous ahavas yisroel and loved every jew, modern or not, but to say they themselves were such is simply not true.
Majority is shown by representation – MO had one leading figure in its infancy, and he himself was very much against a lot of what went on in those circles – plus, Rav Soleveitchik entered the scene after WWII – before then, MO was a radical, borderline-reform attitude fringe. Rav Soleveitchik structured the movement, which hirtherto was led by balbatim and am haratzim who thought they could keep people frum by loosening (read: breaking) halacha.
just me – Firstly – the eruv has some support, sort of, and while of course it should be taken down permanently, those people at least think there’s a yesh al ma lismoch. Same with questionable hechsherim. However, do you see them eating treif, or carrying without some rabbis saying it’s ok? NO. That’s becuase the tznius issue has NO yesh al ma lismoch. It is a blatant obscene violation of the ratzon hashem, with no two sides about it. People won’t listen to screaming about eruvin – why? because they have something to be soymech on. Same with the hechsherim(“what? this rabbi isn’t good enough for you?” type of responses, at least make sense to an am haaretz in halacha).
The bochurim who smoke hid behind allies – why davka in places where no one sees them? it’s embarrassing, and they know it is wrong and will not do it in public, which means they’ll probably stop eventually. The whole issue with these women is that it is being done befehesya with the maximum amount of damage. – the fact that people like you keep aying it’s no big deal, and the prevailing culture and ideology of the goyim wich tells them it’s normal and healthy for a woman to dsigrace her kedusha by becomign a walking micshol, which I think influences even ehrliche yidden into thinking, unconsciously, that this issue isn’t as big. Smoking is a terrible thing, but I am sorry – in halacha tznius is a more severe inyan than smoking. At best(al pi halacha), smoking cigarettes is a sakana, which endangers one person – tznius is an issur dioraisa with certain types of transgressions being a chiyuv kares, and it makes others do aveiros. I’m not saying smoking is ok – it’s not, but it is a separate issue which has no bearing on the discussion of tznius(after all, the forum is about tznius – anytime there’s a problem we can always pass the buck to another problem; why bother with problem A, problem B is there too! is an answer that in essence means, there’s more than one problem, but since there’s more than one, let’s forget about the original one! it’s just a rhetorical trick.
I never said for the average yid to go up to people on the street – that doesn’t work, however action must be taken.
my question..is wy is a shomer shabbos business club, and a religous organization making a video with kol isha???
As per the legitimacy of the bnei menasheh..what can be done?, they converted already with sincerity and a kaballah to do mitzvos, so they’re already jews, I persoanlly do not think they are actually the bnei menasheh – if they are, how come they were ignorant of halacha before being taken in by shavei yisroel? We all now how strong mesorah is; yemenites had their mesorah from the rambam, with great authenticity, and this is why no one questioned them – but to say that a community that did not know halacha or have all the essential texts(gemoras, midrashim, geonim shailas vetshuvos, and rishonim) is likely enough to be jews such that we should take them in..is a stretch, and smacks of missionary work.
We should teach how the attitude some jewish women have is precisely what reform taught – during the haskala, the teshuvah seforim had to address situations and shailos from men who asked how to make kiddush if their wife’s neckline was exposed, or other unheard-of shailos – and that was in the 1800’s. kal vechomer today. Rav Avigdor Miller ZTVK”L taught us powerful lessons about how the holocaust was midah keneged middah in every aspect of observance which klal yisroel abandoned in europe – tznius was one of them; because they did not dress modestly they were forced to be naked r”l and humiliated. Such powerful lessons need to be taught to today’s youth. The loss of tznius is the result of a bigger problem, a lack of understanding that you cannot raise a child in a home with televisions, internet(although yeshivanet is doing something wonderful, in my opinion), magazines and other poison and expect them to be yireh shamayim without painfully breaking themselves of their upbringing once they realize they have been thinking like a goy all their lives – sadly this is what happened to me, and I do not want anyone to experience that pain.
We need to take responsibility, first and foremost. It does not matter if something will drive people away – if someone will, chas veshalom, leave yiddishkeit because of not being able to flaunt one’s body, than you cannot blame chinuch or being ‘judgemental’ – you can blame whoever taught them the shtus. We live in a time when if you tell someone anything is the least bit wrong – you’re some kind of preacher or fanatic – this is not the 60’s where people did whatever they wanted and if, g-d forbid, someone voiced sechel, they were met with ‘get off my back, man’ inbetween pulls of marijuana.
Where is the line drawn? Why is it not considered judgemetal to tell your kids to keep shabbos or kosher? Why is it davka the things that america considers tabboo that we cant teach our kids? Why is it that if someone tells as girl how to dress they are judgemental, but if they say not to break shabbos they’re just doing chinuch? Same with pre-marital relationships and everything in that whole sphere – it’s a doubel standard with a line that can be drawn exactly where american attitudes draws it – when will we wake up?
Being judgemental is judging the person. If you tell a girl who is immodest that she’ll roast in gehinnom..thats not torah and that is judgemental, but that is as far as the concept extends.
Education isn’t the only thing – in places like shuls and other centers of the kehilos there has to be a zero tolerance policy for these issues – we can offer women tzniusdige clothing to wear just when they’re in shul(kind of like how they have talisim outside the shuls) just to instill a community-wide stance on tznius. Nothing is going too far, and nothing is to be considered ‘fanatical’. Like I wrote before, we can take a real lesson from the charedim in eretz yisroel – they react to the poisons of immodesty firmly and uncompromisingly, and so should we, even if that means ruffling a few feathers in the communities that are dens of this illness.