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HaKatan,
Did it ever occur to you that the zionism that Rav Elchonon and the Brisker rov rallied against is not the same zionism as it is in 2014?
Were the zionists of yesteryear trying to destroy orthodox judaism? Perhaps. But today, I do not believe they are. Check out this week’s mishpacha magazine. It talks about a recent survey of secular Israelis and their views on Chareidim. It’s pretty eye opening.
Sam2,
Can you give some examples?
You’re right, credentials don’t matter. What does is that the therapist uses a statistically proven therapy. As can be seen in many studies, it does work.
The point about intuition is that experience doesn’t give anyone any sense about how therapy should work. Psychologists should follow the DSM and other standardized material, not their intuitions.
Trust,
The conclusion of the book is that we have to use a statistical analysis of each situation to come to a proper conclusion. Intuition just won’t cut it.
CBT has stood up to rigorous examination is thousands of studies. Dawes’s point is that even though many psychologists might feel that CBT or any therapy might not work, if it has the evidence, it should be used.
“There are many psychologists that are very good, but many others do not have the knowledge and intuition what would help figure out the causes for certain behaviors”
Being a good psychologist, or a good professional in any field, does not require any intuition. In fact, most expert’s intuition are wrong. Look at “House of Cards” by Robyn Dawes.
“You want me to describe how I would treat you? I’m not a psychologist; I wouldn’t treat you.”
Exactly. Now that you’ve admitted that you have no experience in the field you are claiming to know so much about, how about we end this discussion?
Can the moderators close this thread? Only harm can come from this discussion. A person should seek mental health advice from a trained psychologist, and only a trained psychologist. To argue back and forth on this website is pointless, especially since most of the posters here (my self included) have no formal training in psychotherapy. The only thing that
CBT is a form of psychotherapy
My final word,
It is wrong to discourage people from pursuing a clinically and statistically validated treatment such as CBT, which I understand very well and am well read on.
And I stand by that 100%.
It’s funny watching you argue Against established scientific fact. But it’s also kind of sad.
Perhaps that stimuli are maladaptive behaviors and thoughts.
I never sawyou should ignore anything. CBT is about rationalizing these feelings and emotions.
And I must ask. What is “real therapy”?
“If I get angry, don’t you think that releases different neurotransmitters in my brain? So am I angry because of the neurotransmitters, or because I stubbed my toe?”
Popa raises a good question, which is one of causality. How can we know which variable causes which. Or maybe there is a third element at work influencing both.
Correlation is not causation. So what can we do to eliminate causality? We run an experiment. One with random assignment and a control group.
So in our case, how do we find out if low serotonin causes depression or the other way? We would randomly assign participants of the experiments into two groups. One would receive and SSRI, and the other would get a placebo. Then we rank the participant’s level of depression (using the Beck depression inventory or an equivalent test). If the experimental group shows a better improvement in symptoms than the control group, we can say that high serotonin reuptake can be a cause of depression. It’s as simple as that.
Google serotonin hypothesis. And neurogenesis.
But I’m confused. Do you believe that depression is an illness? Because you don’t think it’s cognitive, behavioral or biological.
Popa,
Feel free to disagree. Just letting you know, when there is clear empirical evidence in support of something, calling it narishkeit won’t change it. In fact, arguing against it makes someone look plain ignorant.
livelovelaugh,
Thanks for writing that. Eloquence was never my thing 🙂
Popa, I think you are lacking a basic understanding of CBT. Anxiety or depression aren’t causes by negative behaviors or thinking. They are most likely biological illnesses. But their symptoms manifest in physical behaviors and thoughts. CBT is not about curing mental illness. It’s about managing the symptoms. Once you’ve mastered that, there isn’t much else to do.
Of course, there are plenty of cases that require medication. But this does not mean that the symptoms are unimportant in treatment.
“And then one day he is dating someone, and are scared to marry them because they find something imperfect–because nothing is ever perfect. So he thinks about happy outcomes instead. But does he marry her? “
What on earth does this have to do with CBT? Anxiety about dating is completely normal. There is nothing harmful about it.
“Wouldn’t it have been nice if he had seen a real psychologist who had gotten to the root of his issue instead”
What exactly could a “real psychologist” do?
True, I can’t say I always agree with them, but as flagship organization for psychologists in the United States and Canada, you should not toss away their positions lightly.
Might I ask why you have such a negative view of the APA?
If they have evidence to back up what they say. And they usually do.
Let me ask you a question. How many practicing psychoanalysts are out there? How many people practice humanistic psychology? How about gestalt?
The answer is very few, if any. The reason is because there is no evidence for these therapies. While psychoanalysis might sound nice,and roger’s therapy may make you feel nice, they have not shown to be effective. CBT on the other hand has shown to work.
It’s a very simple theory. People can change their behaviors. People can change their thoughts. That’s the premise of CBT. The therapist helps the patient work through their irrational or circular reasoning, and instructs them on how to change their maladaptive behavior.
Popa, it’s the most prestigious of any psychological organization. It’s the gold standard of psychology.
If you hold of psychology, wouldn’t it make sense to agree with it’s primary organization?
The APA has nothing to do with medication. They’re psychologists, not psychiatrists. They deal with psychotherapy, not drug therapy.
Popa, one study arguing that randomly controlled trials need evaluation says nothing of the efficacy of CBT.
The American Psychological Association lists CBT as a empirically validated treatment. It has been shown to be more effective than control groups numerous times. Just look at its wiki page. It links to many studies showing its effectiveness.
The age and gender make no difference on the efficacy of the treatment.
Could you please support yourself with evidence?
Nobody claims that you can cure anxiety in 10 sessions. What psychologists claim is that you can treat abnormal anxiety in a limited number of sessions. It’s not a cure. It’s a treatment. People with anxiety disorders will always have their anxiety. What CBT can do is teach the patient ways to live with their anxiety.
It’s not foolproof, but neither is any other treatment.
CBT is the most effective psychotherapy used for depression, anxiety and a bunch of other disorders. It has been clinically and statistically proven to work. Arguing otherwise is just plain wrong.
notasheep,
when was the last time you met a tziduki?
It’s a mental illness called obsessive compulsive disorder. It can be treated with medication and/or talk therapy
Stern is a great school
Einstein was not an atheist. He was a pantheist.
the-art-of-moi, you have fallen prey to a common (and possibly harmful) misconception. People who are anti-social are aggressive and cruel. They don’t think of the consequences of their actions. They show no concern for others, and often commit crimes which physically harm people. They violate the rights of others, lie and manipulate. They are what people commonly know ay psychopaths.
What you describe is introverted behavior. It’s quite common.
Also, your mood can change with the weather. Its called seasonal affective disorder.
Hakatan,
With all respect to Rav Kotler, how exactly did Rav Soloveichik “destroy an entire generation”? Rav Soloveichik built yeshiva university into a center of Torah learning, in which thousands of people have learned. His works Lonely Man of Faith and Halachic Man are two of the most important essays for modern orthodoxy, and orthodoxy as a whole. His Shiurim were attended by many people, from a variety Hashkafot. His talmidim played a major part in promoting orthodoxy in America. In any given Jewish community, you will probably find a Rav that learned in YU, under the Rav himself of one of his talmidim.
Zahavasdad,
What does R’Miller say?
Sam2,
May I ask for the name of the gadol who said this? I would love to see the t’shuva .
por,
I do not believe that we institute laws of tzniut(or of any halachic issue) because of a supposed near death experience. Lo B’shamayim Hi.
I think the best solution to the shidduch crisis would be to allow singles to meet in a natural environment instead of having a system with such ridiculous standards and rules. How about letting people meet at weddings? Or maybe arrange singles events.
It’s way more simpler than the shidduch system. You meet someone, you like them, you go out on a date. It saves, time, stress and is more effective.
Health,
Narth is an organization that believes that you can change your attraction. JONAH also believes that
About JONAH, the RCA wrote this:
“Based on consultation with a wide range of mental health experts and therapists who informed us of the lack of scientifically rigorous studies that support the effectiveness of therapies to change sexual orientation, a review of literature written by experts and major medical and mental health organizations, and based upon reports of the negative and, at times, deleterious consequences to clients of some of the interventions endorsed by JONAH, the Rabbinical Council of America decided in 2011, as part of an overall statement on the Jewish attitude towards homosexuality, to withdraw its original letter referencing JONAH.”
Health,
I know what firsthand means. If you do have such evidence, would you be able to give us an example of any study or empirical evidence?
Is your first hand knowledge anything more than anecdotal evidence?
Health,
What is your first hand knowledge?
I’m sure that there are people who suffer from both. My point is that depression and anxiety are not the same, and that most people who have one don’t have the other. So to say that the studies are junk science because they only use people who have one mental illness and not ywo is silly.
Popa,
I don’t think any legitimate therapist would claim to be able to cure someone in a limited number of sessions. What they might say is that you may see results in given number and of sessions.
It’s ridiculous to say that Noone can suffer from just depression or just anxiety. Take a look at the DSM. The criteria for depression is wildly different.
Popa,
Could you provide evidence that CBT is “garbage” and that the studies are “junk science”?
I once asked a Rebbi of mine what he would do if we hit the year 6000 and Mashiach did not arrive. He told me that all he knows is that he would still make it to shachris the next day.
benignuman,
Have you ever heard of cognitive behavioral therapy? It has a success rate that rivals that of medication. If you google “Comparative Effectiveness of Medication Versus Cognitive-Behavioral
Therapy in a Randomized Controlled Trial of Low-Income Young Minority
Women With Depression”, you will find an excellent study showing the success of CBT.