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“They don’t need to cause an upheaval just to accommodate people who choose to go off the derech – that shouldn’t be an option regardless of circumstances.”
How about changing because you have jeopardized all of Klal’s Yisrael’s yeshivas in NY?
“I’m not obfuscating(you seem to like that word very much)”
I only used it once in this thread. And you are obfuscating. They have caused harm to Klal yisrael because we now have to involved in a fight with the government about our education system because of them.
“They’re on food stamps because they can be. That money will be going to deadbeat dads, drug addicts, criminals, and other pieces of garbage. If it’s available, why not avail themselves of the money? They have large families, and even with a decent income, it’s not easy. I don’t think the majority are dependent on it though.”
I recommend you take a look at some of the metrics. I don’t know about majority but certainly a lot are.
@nishtdayngesheft
It’s funny how Yaffed came from an ex-Chasid and not a Litvak. I wonder why.“They’re successful, and they are not harming any other part of klal yisroel in their ways – chasidim support many needy litvishe yidden, especially in eretz yisroel.”
Nice obfuscation. We are not discussing Satmar Bikur cholim or other chesseds that they do. We are discussing the fact that our Litvish yeshivas are being put into jeopardy because of the actions of the Chassidishe velt and we are the ones swooping in to save their (and because of them our) skin. Rabbis Reisman, Brudny and Bender are the ones who are being tied up into this and it is not because the government was having problems with Torah Vodaas, Mir Brooklyn or Darchei.
“And they’re very, very successful in business.”
Correct, but let’s not ignore the nice amount on food stamps.
Lastly, this whole thing regarding “respect”. No, I don’t respect everything they do just because they had great people. I don’t respect many of them missing zman tefilah. I don’t respect the derech halimud of many of them. I don’t respect how they handle being in the public eye and dealing with the government. I don’t respect their chinuch.
I do, however, respect their warmth, their avodah, and chassudim that they do.“whenever the government tries to tell us how to do anything, it doesn’t end well.”
The government wants us to have regents and we’ve been doing that for quite a while and there hasn’t been any problems until people from the Chassidishe velt complained.
“Let’s say you personally believe children should have a modern chinuch, or a litvishe chinuch, or a yekkish one – you need to respect the chasidishe opinion on chinuch.”
Stop with the ridiculous multi-cultural rhetoric. I don’t have to “respect” their chinuch if I think it causes harm to their own and indirectly causes harm to the rest of Klal Yisrael.
“You have no right to pass judgement and allow the goyim to be rodef fellow yidden just because you think they have a “valid taanah”
What about their actions causing the government to be rodef our institutions, don’t they have to care about that?
As ubiquitin wrote there are a lot of distractive arguments being put forward but in the end of the day the NYT’s article is correct in its basic point, many chassidishe schools give a terrible education to their students. It’s not “Hate Speech” and they need to change for this problem to be solved.
AviraDeArah is engaging in the typical scare mongering whenever someone wants to discuss the educational problems in the chassididsh world. The whole mess that we are in is because people from the Chassidish velt complained to the government about (some of) their schools. We all know that there is a significant amount of chassidishe yeshivas that provide very poor education. Solidarity with them also means them actually changing their system so that they don’t harm our Litvish schools that are much better at meeting standards and not drawing attention to ourselves. This whole discussion would be different if after looking at mainstream Litvish schools in NY the government decided they needed to be interfered with. However, for many Chassidishe schools the government has a valid taana and unless there is change with them our Litvishe schools are going to have to continue to put up a fight that we did not ask for.
You seem to rant a lot but do you actually have a source that would assur interaction between opposite genders in the coffee room?
Here’s a raya against what you’re saying:
The Ben Ish Chai on the Gemara in Sanhedrin 75a dealing with Arayos and talking with woman:
תְּסַפֵּר עִמּוֹ מֵאֲחוֹרֵי הַגָּדֵר. קשא מה הנאה יש לו בזה מאחר דאין רואה אותה כלל? ונראה לי אחר שאמרו ‘תַּעֲמֹד עֲרֻמָּה לְפָנָיו’ ולא נתנו רשות, חזרו ואמרו ‘תַּעֲמֹד עֲרֻמָּה אֲחוֹרֵי הַגָּדֵר’ ותדבר וכיון שהוא יודע שמדברת עמו בהיותה ערומה ומצייר דבר זה בדעתו יש לו הנאה.” I know of a yeshiva that encouraged the bochrim to get rid of their smartphones (which were all filtered and monitered by the yeshiva) for a simple flip phone and have a tablet instead”
I’m assuming the bochurim are in school part time because otherwise why does a bachur need a smartphone or tablet?
“the issue of women isn’t simple, nor is a man’s obligation in talmud Torah. What is simple, is the obligation to not have a seder kevuah in limudei chol if not for parnosa.”
But the halachos concerning a man’s obligation and the halachos regarding learning secular studies are connected. The complications that arise there can affect here.
Nice to see you discussing the sugya, instead of “Rema says this, end of discussion”.
“I don’t believe he mentions daf yomi in particular.”
He does.
“it’s a good question, and I don’t think it’s clear cut.”
It’s also not clear cut for men.
“having a seder at night, morning, or krias shma,etc, are at times when you’re an oness. If you’re working, etc…”
Really? Lechatchali your yotzi your chiyuv of talmud torah with day and night learning. Rav Moshe discusses in a teshuva about the general chiyuv to know all of Torah and that for non-bnei torah they can be yotzi zayn with going through daf yomi.
There is also probably a distinction between a man and a woman since woman do not have a chiyuv talmud torah. Therefore, to get back to the Original Poster’s question, about going for a degree for non-parnassah purposes if you are talking about a woman it’s probably mutar (though I’m not a posek). A man is a bit more complicated.
“eating before davening, ba’krai, is in fact assur”
Even before Mincha and Maariv?
“Most halachos are complicated. This one is straight forward.”
It really isn’t. You yourself have to nitpick what “באקראי” is meaning when dealing with Rav Moshe’s teshuva. It also gets complicated when discussing the chiyuv of talmud torah because you can be yotzi that with a keveis of learning by night and day. So why should it be assur to learn secular studies at other times? Does this issur only apply to men or also to woman?
There’s a lot to discuss but you want to pretend that it’s straightforward.
@ujm
Again, with the accusation that I “don’t like a Halacha”. Maybe I just disagree with your pshat?“באקראי” is not a straightforward term. If we saw it by sukkah and eating before davening we would want to know what it means and what the gedarim are. I think discussion is good, not dogmatic assertions that this is what it means and how it is to be interpreted.
Rav Moshe seems to be allowing to learn secular studies during bein hasedroim which in most yeshivas is a set time every day. Again, does that mean if the questioner wanted to know if he went to a lecture on biology every day at 1pm to relax during bein hasederim, Rav Moshe would have assered? Maybe. I don’t know. Would he have still mattererd? Again, maybe.
So anyone who disagrees with your pshat is only following their yetzer hara? Ok.
I would recommend seeing Igros Moshe yoreh deah chelek daled siman lamed vov, sif tes zayin, last paragraph where he discusses bochurim who have a cheshek to learn shaar chochmeyes during bein hasedorim. He doesn’t mention this Rema or anything but it’s interesting because he seems to be allowing for a set time (bein hasedorim) to learn these things if not done with heavy iyun.
The main question is what the teitch of “באקראי” is here. Of course, AviraDeArah has his pshat but that doesn’t mean it’s the only one.
“Either the story about rav ovadia is false, which i think it is, or he thought it was a boy, or he simply wasn’t on the level of gedolei olam – I’m inclined to believe either of the first two.”
I remember when I was in yeshiva a bachur also had a very difficult time believing this about Rav Ovadia; it was upsetting him and the Rebbeim had to talk to him about it. Honestly, for me, I don’t see what the big deal is for Rav Ovadia to follow his own psak and why that makes him any less of a gadol.
“Tzadikim are extremely sensitive, and need more shmirah from women than regular people. ”
Kiddushin 81b:
רַב אַחָא בַּר אַבָּא אִיקְּלַע לְבֵי רַב חִסְדָּא חַתְנֵיהּ שַׁקְלֵיהּ לְבַת בְּרַתֵּיה אוֹתְבַהּ בְּכַנְפֵיהּ אֲמַר לֵיהּ לָא סָבַר לַהּ מָר דְּמִקַּדְּשָׁא אֲמַר לֵיהּ עֲבַרְתְּ
לָךְ אַדְּרַב דְּאָמַר רַב יְהוּדָה אָמַר רַב וְאִיתֵּימָא רַבִּי אֶלְעָזָר אָסוּר לְאָדָם שֶׁיְּקַדֵּשׁ אֶת בִּתּוֹ כְּשֶׁהִיא קְטַנָּה עַד שֶׁתַּגְדִּיל וְתֹאמַר בִּפְלוֹנִי אֲנִי רוֹצֶה מָר נָמֵי עֲבַר לֵיהּ אַדִּשְׁמוּאֵל דְּאָמַר שְׁמוּאֵל אֵין מִשְׁתַּמְּשִׁים בְּאִשָּׁה אֲמַר לֵיהּ אֲנָא כְּאִידַּךְ דִּשְׁמוּאֵל סְבִירָא לִי דְּאָמַר שְׁמוּאֵל
הַכֹּל לְשֵׁם שָׁמַיִםKesubas 17a
זרַב אַחָא מַרְכֵּיב לַהּ אַכַּתְפֵּיהּ וּמְרַקֵּד. אָמְרִי לֵיהּ רַבָּנַן: אֲנַן מַהוּ לְמִיעְבַּד הָכִי? אֲמַר לְהוּ: אִי דָּמְיָין עֲלַיְיכוּ כִּכְשׁוּרָא — לְחַיֵּי, וְאִי לָא — לָאI also recommend seeing the Yam Shel Shlomo in Kiddushin 4:25 who explains that only a chasid gadol who knows his yetzer and where he is holding can rely on this.
She was not a child. For the record, her name was Umm Kulthum and her singing career began when she was an adult and she became one of the most recognized celebrities in Egypt.
I’m not being really being medayak from that, it’s the lack of any explicit mention in the teshuva that it’s only for krias shema and tefillah. Pashut pshat is like me.
Some poskim are more strict by ervah and arayos but yes there are poskim that mention the fact that since shofar blowing doesn’t work over a microphone there should be a tzad to say kol isha also does not apply.
So you agree that it’s not meforesh. Rav Ovadia ends his teshuva by saying that it’s not considered kol isha not that his heter is only for devorim shebokdusha and we know from his personal life that he did listen stam.
Why? Did you hear differently? I heard it from a pretty close relative of his.
I don’t know what you mean by “story”, it was pretty well known that he did. But besides that, why don’t you show me in the teshuva where he says davka by devorim shebekudasha and not just stam. And he’s not the only posek that has been meikel on this issue. (though most say that if you know what she looks like it’s assur)
No, you mentioned it in the context of that you don’t know what she looks like, not because it’s not her actual voice.
“That’s regarding saying devorim shebekedushah.”
Not what I heard bshem Rav Dovid Feinstein. It is also well known that there was a certain Egyptian female singer that Rav Ovadia liked to listen to. If your listening to it and it causes hirhurim its obviously assur. But there is a big difference between listening to a song because its enjoyable and it happens to be sung by a woman or listening because you davka want to hear a woman sing and it causes you to have hirhurim.
I can’t believe nobody mentioned the obvious heter that recorded kol isha is not a problem because it’s not the actual woman’s voice but rather the airwaves that one is listening to. I know that Rav Dovid Feinstein held like that and there are other poskim as well. People are so ready to bash these woman without thinking of any melamed zechus.
“let the school be as frei as it wants, and eventually it will cease to exist – let modern kids go to Landers or Ner Yisroel.”
The reason YU still exists is because there is a sizable crowd of people who will not send to Landers (kal vachomer Ner) because it’s too much to the right. Even if the Rabbeim left it will not cease to exist until that crowd either moves to the right or left and there will no longer be a market for YU to cater to.
Judging based on your last two comments, I can understand why the Moderators might be blocking some of your posts.
“What i find ridiculous, is that frum people have become so enamored with the presence of non frum jews that some think it’s still within the parameters of “jew”. ”
They are. Get over it.
“Some think “well, if we didn’t have the Torah, we’d be like Israelis..” that’s because the zionists have succeeded in supplanting the definition of a jew with that of a nation-state.”
I disagree. There were Jews before the Zionists who were already identifying as Jews without any religion.
“odt propogated idea”
🙂““today you are to me a nation” was said in the midbar, not eretz yisroel.”
Yay, I always wondered about that too, we weren’t a nation in Mitzrayim? That doesn’t fit will with the pesukim in shemos, just for example:
וַיֹּ֤אמֶר יְהֹוָה֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה בֹּ֖א אֶל־פַּרְעֹ֑ה וְדִבַּרְתָּ֣ אֵלָ֗יו כֹּֽה־אָמַ֤ר יְהֹוָה֙ אֱלֹהֵ֣י הָֽעִבְרִ֔ים שַׁלַּ֥ח אֶת־עַמִּ֖י וְיַֽעַבְדֻֽנִי:Who’s עַמִּ֖י if Klal Yisrael is not a nation yet?
“One who does not keep the torah is treated as a non-jew. ”
Crucial point is that he is considered a non-Jew for certain halachos, but is still Jewish.
“None of that has to do with land/culture/language/ancestry, because you can be a jew in spain speaking Spanish, wearing spanish jewish garb, eating Mediterranean cuisine, and be born non-jewish but converted, and you’re 100% as jewish as a ben acher ben of dovid hamelech.”
Theoretically, if you took away the Torah you would still have people identifying as Jewish and feeling a connection to a “Jewish nation”. I’m not saying that is the Torah’s definition of the Jewish nation but sometimes I hear anti-Zionists say that there would be no Jewish nation at all without the Torah even in a secular and cultural way. That is ridiculous.
“I’m asking what makes a Jew. The Torah answer is that the Torah makes us Jewish, and nothing else. The secular zionist answer is that land, ancestry, languags, culture and a history make us Jewish.”
This is an oft propagated idea of the anti-Zionists in the frum community. But I honestly think that it’s the opposite. The Torah says that if someone’s mother is Jewish he is Jewish. This makes our religion very ethnic and nationalistic. Even people far removed from Yiddeshkeit such as Spinoza, Einstein, Freud, and Marx are considered Jewish because of this. The Torah contributes to identifying Jews in an ethnic instead of a religious way. Zionism would not be possible without the Torah already putting forth the idea that people completely removed from Yiddeshkeit are still Jewish based on their ancestry alone. The Torah’s definition of a Jew is not the polar opposite of Zionism’s despite protestations that it is.
Wow, @Syag Lchochma, you’re sharp and a good writer.
Exposure Response Prevention works wonders but it is hard. Try it slowly. Give the person the space and time to deal with OCD. Remember that OCD is generally chronic so the goal should be about managing it not completely getting rid of it necessarily. Obviously, a good therapist is crucial. Not all therapists treat OCD properly. Try to find one that does.
“Brooklyn is the new out of town”
I think the point of bringing up heliocentrism is that the common sense view before that was that since the Torah was given to us and that is the purpose of the creation of the world it would make very good practical sense that the earth was the center of the universe. Now, we know that it is not. So we understand that the common sense view is not any better than a more complex one. Similarly, commons sense tells us that there would be no other civilizations outside Earth, however, we now know that that with regards to the cosmos the common sense way of thinking is incorrect so we are open to the possibility that there could be a more complex plan at work.
Global warming is just another aspect of the rotten side of capitalism.
@AvirahdeArah
Why the assumption @Yabia Omer won’t understand what they are saying? Sounds like a bit of anti-Sephardi racism here.
“Why don’t you ask a Rov? Why do you ask the rank and file who hang out on the internet?”
Not everyone has a Rav. He is asking for a source, maybe he wants to look into the sugya on his own.
“I’ve been going to rebbehs my entire adult life;”
Have you ever asked any of these Rebbehs what they think of Lubavitch?
@Syag Lchochma
And a lot of people who criticize Lubavitch do not understand the Chassidic world and are only reiterating what their Litvak teachers taught them. Not to say there weren’t Chassidusses that were critical but the issue isn’t as black and white as the Litvash world presents it as
Can someone actually explain using primary sources how the “Zionist entity” is actually a “shamd state”? It’s an oft-repeated line but I have yet to see hard evidence for it.
Source?
Youtube does ban nudity officially at least
I’m curious, what general level are these chemist savants on that participate in this competition? Are they like undergraduate students majoring in chemistry, graduate students pursuing a Phd in chemistry, full on Professors, or something else entirely?
I think Torah Vodaath does, though I’m not 100% sure.
“This reminds me of the famous story about the Bais Yaakov convention in Toronto. There was an announcement that all in-town girls should stand up and go to a certain person, so all the Toronto and Flatbush girls got up.”
This is hilarious. When was this? Wish I could have seen it.
What’s the difference between a troll and just starting a controversial discussion because its interesting? I mean if every attempt to discuss controversial things is trolling then not trolling would make the Coffee Room very boring.
Is Flatbush now considered out of town? 🙂
I assume you are referring to the “The Communism of the Rheinischer Beobachter” where Marx is critiquing the income tax as being insufficient for alleviating the suffering of the proletariat. He’s critical of charity but doesn’t tell people not to give it. He just sees it as only a half baked measure which is then used to control people. Similar to how Brisk doesn’t take money from the government so it is not controlled by it.
Again, you lump all feminists together. There is a difference between first wave feminism and second wave feminism. With regard to Beauvoir, I don’t have a copy of her work on me so I can’t see what you are referring to.
“Much like zionism, communism sought to right perceived wrongs.”
There are disagreements on whether Marx saw a moral element in his discussion of capitalism and communism or whether he saw it as beyond justice and morality. Please provide evidence for your reading.
“Stalin simply entorced communism by force, as every creator of every communist state has done. That’s what happened in china, vietnam, north korea, cuba, and elsewhere.”
These states never reached communist utopia and were still in the process of the vanguard of the proletariat. This intermediate state was unfortunately abused by authoritarians.
“No established society would accept communism by choice. It needs to be foisted on them.”
Revolutionary Catalonia anyone?
“Marx was in favor of achieving that at least partially through the cruelty of withholding charity.”
Source?
“Feminism further sought to break women of the bonds of motherhood and matrimony, even against their own will.”
This is more in line with second-wave feminism but even that did not force woman to abandon motherhood. First wave feminism just sought to gain equal rights for woman (suffrage, inheritance laws etc.)
Because many Marxists believe that Stalinism is a gross misinterpretation of Marx and that he would be horrified by what Stalin implemented.
Just curious, in your experience within the frum world, do you find that people (including Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva you’ve encountered) generally consider non-Orthodox today tinok shinshba?
@ujm
“But the Gedolei Rabbonim and the large majority of mainstream Roshei Yeshivos have not espoused that.”Do you know this from a survey or just your general experience within the frum world?. I’m assuming the latter. My experience is different so I can’t really argue with you much here.
@Always_Ask_Questions
” whether they quote Karl Marx or JTS”What does quoting Marx have to do with being knowledgeable about Torah?