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Chas Vshalom
Hakatan
Maybe you haven’t Learnt the sugya but nobody other than the satmar Rav saw it as a problem whether the ohr sameach or avnei nezer but most importantly the Ramban who says the mitzvah of yishuv eretz Yisroel is noheg bzman hazeh and the main mitzvah is kibush.
edited
The shalosh shavuos is a distraction because not everyone has to hold of the satmar pshat of the shavuos, just like in any other sugya. I think the main issue with the book is that at this point what does he want? To just give up the state? That’s ludicrous! At this point either learn to live with it or decide to finally recognize that this is what Hashem wants and start appreciating it for what it is with all its maalos and chesronos.
I think one of the main reasons and perhaps the main reason is that in EY we are like family and fight for every life as opposed to here where we hear so many stories of people being neglected in the hospitals r”l.
Joseph
The Sefer is אם הבנים שמחה and it is very serious, it was written by a huge Talmud chacham during the holocaust. It is a lot more serious than the Va-Yoel Moshe.While I don’t know if they are zionistic or not, the truth is always the most effective method and the truth in this case has been the most effective path to yiddishkeit.
The Baal teshuva movement was started right after and because of the six day war and not even because people saw prophecies being realized, just because it made people proud to identify as a Jew.Of course it means that Hashem’s name should be sanctified in front of the goyim as well as the yidden.
The Navi Yechezkel says so many times that the geula will happen when Hashem says enough to the chillul Hashem in the eyes of the goyim.
לָכֵ֞ן אֱמֹ֣ר לְבֵֽית־יִשְׂרָאֵ֗ל כֹּ֤ה אָמַר֙ אֲדֹנָ֣י יְהוִ֔ה לֹ֧א לְמַעַנְכֶ֛ם אֲנִ֥י עֹשֶׂ֖ה בֵּ֣ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל כִּ֤י אִם־לְשֵׁם־קָדְשִׁי֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר חִלַּלְתֶּ֔ם בַּגּוֹיִ֖ם אֲשֶׁר־בָּ֥אתֶם שָֽׁם׃וְקִדַּשְׁתִּ֞י אֶת־שְׁמִ֣י הַגָּד֗וֹל הַֽמְחֻלָּל֙ בַּגּוֹיִ֔ם אֲשֶׁ֥ר חִלַּלְתֶּ֖ם בְּתוֹכָ֑ם וְיָדְע֨וּ הַגּוֹיִ֜ם כִּי־אֲנִ֣י יְהוָ֗ה נְאֻם֙ אֲדֹנָ֣י יְהוִ֔ה בְּהִקָּדְשִׁ֥י בָכֶ֖ם לְעֵינֵיהֶֽם׃
Klugeryid
A Jewish state is a state that is in control by the Jews, not that complicated.Klugeryid
Although I don’t condone every stupidity or aveirah that someone living in Eretz Yisroel is oiver, I still consider it a Jewish state. Yes even Avigdor Lieberman is a part of that.When HKB”H chose Klal Yisroel he knew that there are smart, dumb, righteous and unrighteous people yet he still chose as a nation. If you have questions ask him why he chose us as a nation rather then just say that anyone who is a tzadik is a Jew. עם זו יצרתי לי תהלתי יספרו is going on the whole nation.
HaKatan
Wow you are confused and brainwashed by Satmar.Joseph
The ohr hachaim in parshas Behar says that the Gedolei Yisroel who don’t encourage Aliya are Asidin litein es Hadin.I believe that Satmar poisoned the well.
Health
There are always people who see the bad even in a great situation.Charliehall
It’s true that it isn’t always mentioned favorably but the Rambam says that we celebrate Chanukah shechazra malchus liyisroel yeser mimasaim shana, so it need not be all rosy to appreciate that we have our own self determination.Milhouse
Read the Gemara again with Rashi as it says clearly that we will come to the Bais Hamikdosh and daven for moshiach.Coffee addict
The reason it was galus yavan is because eretz yisroel was under Greek rule, just as Dovid hamelech said that he was sent into exile when he went to the plishtim even though Gaza is clearly a chelek of Eretz Yisrael.Too geshmak
No reference to establishment of a Jewish state before mashiach? How about Megillah daf 17b on the bottom and the yerushalmi in maseches maaser sheini for starters?Coffee addict
We are davening for the completion of the geula
Sanhedrin, Bais Hamikdosh, malchus Bais Dovid, nevuah etc. but some of the most significant steps have occurred. We are deep in kibutz galuyos, political independence, land giving fruit bayin yafeh, the revival of lashon Hakodesh….Munkacs, Belz, Satmar, all of gedolei Europe were right???
Tragically they were so wrong as Harav teichtal z”l who was one of them and was killed in the holocaust write about in his Sefer.
Unfortunately people don’t learn Navi so they can say such ignorant statements about kibutz galuyos as a bigger galus than ever.
We heard all kinds of predictions from gedolim that the state won’t last fifty years etc. meanwhile it is a thriving success in every metric including ruchniyus as shown in so many studies.Reform rabbi
Galus yavan was only until the yidden gained independence/sovereignty with the Chanukah story. That is why there was no commemoration for the beginning of bayis sheini since there was no independence.Obviously living in Israel under Jewish rule is not galus.
I don’t know if the Chazon Ish said that but it makes sense since it goes along with the rambam that paskens like Shmuel that אין בין … אלא שיעבוד מלכויות.
Also according to the Gemara in berachos we are living in yemos hamashiach.
גמ׳ תניא אמר להם בן זומא לחכמים וכי מזכירין יציאת מצרים לימות המשיח והלא כבר נאמר הנה ימים באים נאם ה׳ ולא יאמרו עוד חי ה׳ אשר העלה את בני ישראל מארץ מצרים כי אם חי ה׳ אשר העלה ואשר הביא את זרע בית ישראל מארץ צפונה ומכל הארצות אשר הדחתים שם
In short, kibutz galuyos is the same as yemos hamashiach.Avi K
I feel for you trying to knock sense into people that are not tethered to reality, People that think that Torah is in an alternate universe. It’s pathetic to bring proofs from people when we have reality. 100 years ago it was up for debate, most weren’t on the side of Harav Kook (there were some but the Satmar way is to totally discredit anyone they disagree with so they became irrelevant). After the holocaust it became more reasonable but still perhaps not the right way to go. But now it’s just so obvious to anyone that has eyes that the future of klal yisrael is in eretz yisrael.It is the only comeback story in the history of the world. It is a success beyond anything anyone could’ve imagined in any field that you want to name. If only the chareidim will partake in the incredible bracha we could only imagine what it would become.
Daasyochid
The fact that they don’t show hakoras gator is a big stain on us, and a major chilul hashem. The only limud zchus is that they feel that they’re in a big battle still against haskolah/Zionism so they don’t want to give an inch.
Unfortunately so many infer the wrong conclusions.Takes3
Like I said before as soon as you realize that you have a incoherent position you pull out the gedolim joker.
It’s really very simple, nobody is obligated to put their lives on the line to defend you. They aren’t being unfair by saying that everyone should chip in.Uncle Ben
Ba chavakuk…. huh? You mean to say we don’t need to do anything?Takes3…
Common sense doesn’t need a makor. In any case since you don’t have common sense see what Moshe rabbeinu told Bnei Gad ubnei Reuven.Takes3…
Sharing the burden is not communism, it’s common sense that Is even expected from a goy and the Torah never came to take away common sense. Derech eretz kadma…I love the bait and switch, in one argument you say that learning is in place of army and the next argument is that it’s not for a Frum person because of the secular environment. Which one is it? If we want to be serious about fixing the problem then we have to identify what it is.
DY
It’s a government elected by the people that came up with the crazy notion of equal sharing of the burden.Also I am not deciding if they have derech eretz, their actions speak for themselves. Basic morality and decency that is expected even from the אומות העולם is for sure expected of Frum Yidden.
I never said limud Torah is unimportant, I said that it doesn’t come in place of national self defense. As far as saying that not everyone is needed, true but who gets to decide who is exempt and who has to don a uniform?
Joseph
That’s a nice theory but it goes against the Torah and common sense. Limud Torah is very important for everyone but it cannot be in place of national self defense. The Torah was not given in a vacuum, it was given to a people that will live in a land and will need an army, economy, infrastructure etc..It is so silly to quibble over if we Pasken like the Ran or the Rambam. The basic concept of Derech eretz kadma ltorah dictates that it doesn’t make any sense to say that someone has to do your basic responsibility because YOU hold that by sitting in a bais medrash it is equivalent. The Torah didn’t come to negate derech eretz it came to add kedusha.
Daasyochid
You really are a Daas yochid, whether you like it or not the IDF is doing the biggest Mitzvah saving Yidden in their land, כל המקיים נפש אחת בישראל times 6 million.
Ben L
Regarding Fact 1 – I don’t know if it is voluntary as to which unit one is assigned to but that is beside the point. The question is does the responsibility of defense fall on everyone besides for the chareidi community?Regarding fact 2- the medinas Yisrael was not founded on a compromise with the chareidim. The Charedim never even asked for a ptur, the chazon ish asked that there should be a ptur for some lomdei Torah. He never asked for a complete ptur of all responsibility.
Fact 3- true, but that still doesn’t stop the massive chilul Hashem that the chilonim see that the people most representative of the Torah completely shirk their collective responsibility.
Takes3tomakemangos
What about 20-60 ?The Halacha is straightforward, self defense is a milchemes chova .
Ziongate
I fully understand what they’re saying, I just want to point out that it’s not based on Torah, it’s just based on feelings. They justifiably feel uncomfortable with secular Yidden running the show so they will live in denial of Halacha. Satmar on the other hand has a Torah based shitah to deal with this basic problem but BH nobody takes seriously.Joseph
On what do you base your halachic ruling? The Rambam clearly implies that jewish sovereignty doesn’t have to be Frum tzadikim. Like most of Bayis rishon and sheini we didn’t have big tzadikim and sometimes big reshoim in power, yet it is considered malchus Yisrael.
Neville chaimberlin
You can keep saying that you have Daas Torah but you still haven’t brought one serious Teshuva or chazal or Rambam to back you up. I don’t think you realize that any supposed Daas Torah is based on chazal and Halacha, not just some feeling.As far as Israel being a goyish state, that goes clearly against the Rambam when he talks about the reason we celebrate Chanukah שחזרה מלכות לישראל יתר ממאתים שנה and he like everyone who is serious knows what type of rule there was in bayis sheini after the first two generations of the chashmonaim, especially bais hurdus. Still the Rambam understood that it’s better to Be in eretz Yisrael under our own sovereignty rather than under goyim. Can it be better? Of course but serious people don’t look only at the problems, they also appreciate the good that there is.
takes3tomakemangos
Nobody says people shouldn’t learn or do any othe Mitzvos for that matter but what does it have to do with national defense. Halacha is very clear that when there is an issue with an enemy there is an obligation on all to pick up a weapon, not to pick up a Sefer.Joseph
Let’s hear- What does it accomplish?
Avi K, ZionGate
The standard operating procedure of the kanoim especially Satmar is to totally discredit anyone who is from another camp or shita such as what they did to Rav Kook, Rav Mendel Kasher, Harav Khati, and Harav Shteinzaltz to name a few. Then they say nobody argues with their shita. This way they silence even those that disagree with them
Joseph
yeshivaleit in Bais Medrash are not defending Jews all over. Everyone has a chiyuv of Talmud Torah and it is an essential part of who we are but it is not called defense.Neville Chaimberlin
This is exactly what I was referring to when I said that whenever someone’s argument becomes incoherent he will pull out the “gedolim joker”.
Sharing the burden is completely rational to anyone, yid or goy, frum or secular. Milchemes chova is not a chiddush, its called self defense, Interestingly the mitzvohs are completely rational.
I never said its a mitzva to join a gentile army, you can read what I wrote very clearly diffrentiating between yidden or goyim but then again it seems they didnt teach simple reading and logic skills in chaim berlin.
american yerushalmi
That’s nice that not everyone needs to be on the front lines but who gets to decide who will be on the front line? shouldn’t it be the same proportion?
As far as learning goes, its a nice and important thing for everyone to do but it has nothing to do with the chiyuv of defending against enemies (MILCHEMES CHOVA).
Neville chaimberlin
There are two issues, 1 is decency so if there would be a need for soldiers in America to protect Americans then it doesn’t make sense that the goyim should have to protect us and we shouldn’t chip in. If it doesn’t fit with our lifestyle then we would not be able to live here in good conscience. BH we aren’t needed for America’s protection.
2) in Eretz Yisroel there is a Mitzvah and a chiyuv to help defend the Yidden and the land. It doesn’t say anywhere that Frum people or lomdei Torah aren’t obligated to participate in this Mitzvah.
The only reason that Frum people don’t want to participate is the lifestyle of the secular Israeli army and that can be changed if there is a will on both sides. Obviously this last paragraph does not pertain to those who hold like Satmar although I’m not sure why since defending Yidden shouldn’t be tied in with gimel shavuos.
Shopping613
Who said in the times of tanach everyone was learning?Neville chaimberlin
Why are you bringing in Zionism and Satmar? This is a straightforward Halacha that is called a milchemes chova (self defense) and everyone is mechuyav.Haimy
Lol
Haimy, Neville chaimberlin
I won’t go down this rabbit hole about if I was making fun of gedolim or not.
I’m still waiting for a comprehensive Halacha Teshuva staying that Frum people are patur from milchemes chova.
The fact is that the truth is very uncomfortable to all that have a shred of integrity. I am a chareidi and I learned in kolel for ten years and I loved it and would not have wanted to give it up to be a soldier. BUT how can I say that someone else has to pick up a weapon for me or have to support me since I think that learning is the best thing?? How can I impose my values on someone else??
Haimy
Very good, now you’re connected to reality, you agree that we need an army. Next step show me a posek anywhere that holds not like chazal and the Torah that Frum people don’t need to defend themselves and their fellow Jews.Neville Chaim Berlin
On the contrary I have respect for our Torah and chazal therefore I don’t just go around making up things in their name. Oh and btw joker is not a reference to a joke it’s a reference to the joker card in a card game.Shopping 613
Who says we don’t need people to learn or not learn? It’s two separate things we need an army for defense and we need people to be shomer Torah umitzvohs which by definition means people learning Torah.Haimy
Typical, As soon as you have an untenable position you pull out the gedolim joker.
Please show any gadol that posits in a serious Teshuva that jews are somehow different and never needed and don’t need an army.tryingtostaycalm
What are you talking about?
Did you forget about מצות ישוב ארץ ישראל?Haimy
When you say “we believe “ who exactly is your “we”?
I certainly don’t believe that you don’t need an army and neither did any of our leaders ever think that way? I don’t remember seeing that the chashmonaim said we should learn more, rabbi Akiva supported bar kochba and of course the whole time of the shoftim and bayis rishon.Ziongate
Well said!