Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
To bring us back on topic let me tell you something that happens in MY daily life. I have a 9 yr old sibling with asthma, and for him smoking can and is deadly. Not only from himself but from second hand smoke passed on by other people. We can say all we want that we have to “broaden our horizons” and listen to the other side (whoever that may be), but to put other people at risk for what YOU feel is right?
Right now I’m not sure who is right, I have been successfully confused by all the arguments on this thread. (I’m not sure if thats a good thing or not)
AJ-I don’t think we’re telling anyone to Paskin Halacha here, but I do believe that everyone is allowed to have their own opinions and state them sometimes. And to feel undermined or bent out of shape because of that I think is because of the real disease that is plaguing our community which is uncertainty about our identities and our quickness to discriminate against ANYONE (even in our own circles) who are not like us.
“and why yeshivos are run the way they are” Q: How so, can we get more specifics?
EDITED
So it is physical. Nicotine is put in the smoke to make people dependent on a cigarette. They can’t give it up because physically there is an element that makes people “need” the smoke. The body does crave it and people don’t stop because mentally even though they know its harmful they justify it in their minds to be correct.
So we’re saying ppl that can’t quit a bad habit are weak.
Yeah schools need psychologists for different reasons.
I totally agree with the fact that you need to have the support available if wanted.
To Health,
But ppl don’t classify smoking as a mental health issue, even if its considered as an addiction. Why is this type of program being implanted in the school system so important? Lots of young ppl that are smoking aren’t necessarily in school now. So how would that help? Awareness and prevention are helpful but is it really working?
“So they can’t ever be cured”- I’d like to think otherwise. I hope one day they will be cured. yes you have to realize for yourself if you have issues, but I still think with the right help and support people can change their lives to the better.
I don’t see what all this mental health stuff has to do with smoking. Are you saying that smokers are mentally unstable? If so I am not sure I agree with you, actually I probably disagree. Because, Yeah smokers have issues and if they didn’t they probably wouldn’t be smoking, I don’t know, But I do know that people that smoke aren’t mentally unstable.
As for the idea to globalize such a program, I’m still not sure how effective it will be or if it would necessarily help towards that goal.(But I hope it helps as much as it can) Q:How does one implement this program into a Yeshiva School setting?
Wow,”It takes a strong person to admit he has areas that need improvement”. While that is true there are plenty of other people who get help even if its REALLY hard for them to admit that they need improvement. They might not even be the ones pushing themselves to get help it may be someone really close to them pushing them to do it.
And if you want to argue that you can’t force a person to do something they don’t want to do, well there are plenty of people out there doing things they don’t really want to do and they’re just doing it because they’re either pushed or forced into doing said thing.
For sure its easier if the person you’re trying to help improve actually “wants” to improve himself, but just have you have people doing things in their lives that they would rather not be doing, you have people seeking professional help even if they may not “really” want to do so.
What about keeping secrets from people? I sure hate having to do that and it takes a whole lot of energy to keep the secret. So, you’re still saying (in a way) that getting therapy or “improvement help” is something that should be kept under wraps because other people don’t want to hear about it or don’t know how to deal with it etc.
Good Idea AZ
To Health,
I still think there would be a stigma, because its what mental help represents more than making everyone do it so there won’t be a stigma. Just knowing that you or someone else you know is one of the people that need that help is like a nice punch in the face. Also its pretty hard to keep things so discreet and it also takes a toll on the person to keep that secret from people.
Thank G-d we do have all the facilities and meds to deal with all these issues- mental health and regular health, Its a brachah for the people who need it.
To Health,
You for sure sound like a mental health professional. (not to say that you are one) I’m not saying we’re losing a lot of our kids, but we are giving them reason to think that our world is hypocritical.
Now about yeshivas, yes there are plenty of kids having bad experiences in school/Yeshiva. But its not only from the Yeshiva, its also from the child’s background and surroundings. Granted school plays a major role in this. But we do send our children to school for a very long amount of time, so of course they’ll get into trouble, rebel or turn to thrill seeking. I have also heard about disgusting and hair-raising cases about what goes on in some schools. Trust me I’ve also heard first hand about things that have happened to people that are close to me at the expense of their school. Also, I can’t tell you about all the countless times I myself have been hurt or mistreated by the institutions,schools that I myself have been in.
You ask WHY do kids do the things that they do-to make a point or to show you how much they’re hurting inside. But can we honestly answer that question? Do we remember what it was like being teenagers and What their perception of the world is like? Its very different from that of an adult’s perception of the world.
We’ve just become more aware and accepting of the psychological field. How can the ROSHEI YESHIVA get their students enough mental help if there still is a stigma-however slight it may be, so they have a tough job trying to convince people that they are actually ones that need mental help. You never think its going to happen to you and when it does it probably feels like your world is spinning out of your control. I also hope that one day we’ll there will be school psychologists in these places, and that it won’t be taboo, but until then we have to make best of the situation that we’re in right now and daven that it will turn out good.
Thank you very much Health for the advice. Maybe it will work with some of my friends.
Going back to what you said about the younger people its all just one big chain we’ve gotten ourselves into and we can’t seem to break the chain. You say that these young ppl get it from the older ppl in their yeshiva/circles, well the older people got it from their mentors in their circles…… and the chain just keeps going on and on. There’s no way we can change the industry of smoking for as you said “its bad for the smoking industry”. Well I don’t really care about the smoking industry, what I care about is what they represent and what is being allowed to happen through the smoking industry.
Its not just smoking, because a lot of people don’t see that as an addiction, but from other things that we would call addictions and corruptness we see all the time in our daily lives.
We are losing our younger generation to the glitter and glamour of “the outside world”. We’re giving all these explainations of why our kids are going off the derech or not happy with where they are now, but what are we as the regular waylay people doing about our young ones, our next generation that will continue the chain of Torah that we’ve kept alive for so long. Is it fair to them that we are having them grow up in such turbulent times and those same kids are expected to do everything perfect to create a kiddush Hashem in the world when their elders, their mentors and their peers are giving off such bad examples of character?
I know this is probably not what Health had in mind when that post was written but its just something for us all (including me) to think about.
Young ppl are a big part of the story. They get the idea from I don’t know where and once they start they can’t stop.
Have you ever heard of an 18 year old listening to someone trying to discourage them from doing anything they want to do?
And if you’re so into teens not smoking at all why did you even try it?
You could still be smoking after those 2 stupid puffs but you’re not?
To Health,
thanks for the criticism. It took me a few times to read through it before I was willing to accept what you said. But I don’t agree with you. I do not feel like I have the attitude that I am better than smokers. Granted I thank G-d that I have never been faced with the challenge of deciding to smoke or not and I hope I never will be (and even if I have been pressured I’ve never taken the bait). And Chas Veshalom I never said that I pity smokers I actually think that they have made stupid choices and when someone makes a choice that isn’t 100% in the right he still has the chance to change his decisions and the course of his life.
Please tell me how do you ENCOURAGE people not to smoke?
Waiting for some practical advice that actually works.
???? ???? I very much agree with you
What kind of shidduch help? Curious
To health
I’m sure professional shrinks would appreciate not to have to be rehab stations for avid smokers as part of thier job description.
#2 I don’t appreciate your sense of humor-cynical or otherwise in this matter, because I get the feeling that you don’t appreciate this topic and the fact that I would like to figure out alternatives to this issue.
#3 we should be trying to guide ppl and just be there for them to explain the ramifications of thier actions and try to get them to see on thier own why they should quit smoking.
And lastly thats what we are trying to hpefully do: give them positive encouragement.:)
Haifagirl, that was a pretty bad joke. I don’t like that kind of humor, its not funny at all. Why should we lighten up? Do you care about the things we’ve been saying, do you understand? (this is a question at large not directly directed at haifagirl)
Thank you yankdownunder and yes I totally agree with you and that is what I’m trying to promote: prevention rather then deal with the problem as it comes up and I do hope that the cigarette companies go out of bussiness what do we need thier bussiness for anyway?
Do you believe that ppl have a right to mess up thier lives? If it is something that only a moonrock doesn’t know about then how can a person be so stupid and do something disgusting and dangerous to thier life? o.k so they have no good judgement, why not? Where are the teachers of science, health and rebbes that can teach and proove that smking is bad habits. And if you say the person has a “right” to do what they want with thier life then fine. I don’t like this approach and I don’t agree with it BUT….
do the smokers out there know how they’re affecting the ppl around them? Do they even care? Who wants to die by second hand smoke because some ppl can’t control thier desires or thier judgement.
Non-smokers can’t make the smokers stop b/c smokers think that other ppl don’t understand them. Just because we don’t smoke doesn’t mean that we don’t have our own struggles in areas that we believe that other ppl don’t understand. But if we were just to open up and ask someone and let them in on our struggles then we would have a friend or someone else to help us navigate through the darkness to the light at the end of the tunnel. Trust me its really helpful and it really works.
It is painful to see what goes on in EY between and in our communities, but its a good thing to express. We hear and see every day the Sinat Hinam that’s passed from person to person even in the holiest of places. We feel Hashem’s pressence here (in EY) more than in any other place in the world. And even with all the hatred and hardship we have to live with day by day, Israel is still an amazingly great place to live. There is Chessed happening on every corner, there are all different kinds of gemachs, everyone you meet on the street is your friend and everyone worries about everyone else as if he were part of the family. Your greatest security is nosy neighbors, because they’ll always notice when something is amiss and they’ll come and tell you so.
just like “chareidim” throwing rocks and rioting isn’t o.k, we’re not endorsing or saying that its right that doctors or nurses smoke either. We can’t judge ppl and what pushes them over the edge, we don’t know what ppl go thru in thier lives and how they see fit to deal with it . Its their choice what to do with thier lives. All we can do is try and help them along and turn them onto the right path. Also ppl should be smart and use thier common sense. We’re jews and we’re supposed to be smart,we have other role models other than doctors and high up fancy ppl. Use your good judgement as a smart person and G-d willing you can’t go wrong.
I just learned an amazing proof about smoking. In Rav Dessler’s kuntras Habechira in Michtav MeEliyahu, Rav Dessler brings a very good example to bring across his point on Bechira. He uses the example of a smoker. S/o whos been smoing for a long time and really wants to quit. For wahtever reason he decides this is it and I don’t want to smoke anymore. This is a very hard choice to make and the person should be commended for taking such a big step. Because tis is the first step on the road to recovery. I think it was easier to accept this example of the Rav’s after being divulged the info that he used to be a smoker for many years!! and when it came out that smoking was unhealthy he decided to stop smoking.
Rav Dessler gives tips on how to quit:1.He told all of his talmidim that he was quitting and that made the recovery process much easier in the long run.
I’m sure it was very hard and took a lot of strength and willpower to finally let go of this long lasting habit. I am sure it didn’t happen overnight. Smoking is addicting and it takes alot out of a person to decide and stick to his guns about the choice he has made to give up the smoking.
I know a Rav who told his students (I was there)that he was a smoker for almost 9 years. He tried many times to quit but it didn’t work, then he tried another time this time making a whole gameplan for himself and actually quitting. Here is what he said, he once tried to quit during Bein Hazmanim and he just couldn’t do it-it was too hard to go thru niocotine wihdrawl during the zman. So he waited until Bein Hazmanim and tried again, but this time he also took Rav Dessler’s advice and told his friends I’m quitting to smoke and thier help/encourageness would be much appreciated. Also during the first month of quitting he made for himself a reward system that every morning he would buy for himself fresh doughnuts and would bribe himself=eat them every time he felt the urge to smoke. He said he probably got really fat after that but it didn’t matter b/c he achieved his goal: he quit smoking.(Now he’s as healthy looking as he can be for his age and I’m sure he takes care of himself to the best of his abilities) So for all you people out there that think its too late and it can’t be done THINK AGAIN! The greatest rabbanim in the world have experienced Ta’ava and conquered it, and there lives have gone on pretty well afterwards too. Its never too late to try again. As the saying goes:”You try you fail, you try you fail, but the only true failure is when you stop trying”, so then what should you do? “try again!”
Lots of hatzlacha to all of us trying to overcome our tests in life.
P.S. I usually don’t write really long posts, but this lesson that I learned was so inspiring and it gave me more reason to hope for my friends struggling with smoking that they still can change thier habits, and that yes, a good friend can always be there to help them along even in the darkest hour of struggle and dispair.
All the best,
a caring friend
haifagirl, it depends what kind of shul you go to. In any neighborhood,in any city, in any country there are some places-shuls known for not being outgoing and friendly. They’re usually just there to daven and then leave, its not a socialclub for them. But then you have other shuls in different communities that are vey warm and caring and accepting, and they will come over to you and make you feel welcome if you’re new in shul. It all depends where you go, what your mindset is and what you’re looking for as a priority in the place that you do go to daven.
Hear Hear! I don’t think we are patting ourselves on the back. Most of us know that we’re not perfect and we’re supposed to be doing something about that imperfection. But we definately shouldn’t think that we’re better than anyone else, because we’re just as bad or even worse than another person in some area that you might think is totally easy for you. This is what nekudat habachira is and its different for each and every person no matter how frum oo close to intermarriage and complete annihilation that you may be at at the presnt time.
The Ayalon park is somewhat of a divide between Hebrew Israeli and American Hebrew speakers. There are more Israeli type families from there until the bottom of RBS A, and ore anglo type families living on the other side.
Lately I’ve been going shul hopping trying to find a shul that I like so let me tell you about some of them. I started at Ahavath Shalom which is a very nice mix of Anglos and Israelis. Its for a kind of older established crowd-ppl that are living there with a warm embrace to all visitors and newcomers. There are a few Sphardi shuls next to it that are also very nice. Also on Nachshon there is a new sort of Shtebl at the end of the block.
There are some very established Anglo shuls up and down Refaim, Ayalon, Revivim and Luz. It all depends on what you like and what you’re looking for. This past Shabbos I went to Shivtei Yeshurin which is the last house on Dolev (the Q) and it was also very nice. It had the feel of an Anglo-American Baal HaBayit shul. R’ Yaakov Haber is the Rav there. We also have a Carlebach shul, a Cabad shul and even a Soleveitshik shul. There are shuls everywhere in every nook and cranny and there’s always a new one popping up so I’m sure you’ll be able to find a place that suits you best.
What kind of age group are there children-young or finished school? It will be easier giving a good picture suited to these people’s needs if we know or have some clearer idea of what they’re looking for.
Hope this helped. Lots of Hatzlacha!!!
RBS A is a good community and for the most part it is very accepting. As for each street being different, that is the beauty of this community. It gives you the ability to choose where you fit in best. You can be with all Anglos or with all Israelis or then again you can be on a street with a mixture of both. Whatever you want and whatever you feel is right for you you can find in the community.
There is no perfect place in life-no right school, no perfect community, but we do our best and live with what we are thankfully given. Thank You……… Hashem! 😉
You said that you’re looking for a frum but diverse community. There are communities like that but you have to be willing to look into different places and possibly experience a few different places. A few places that I’ve been to that you might consider are: Har Nof or another english-like community around Yerushlayim. Other places are Tzfat-frum and accepting, or also Ramat Beit Shemesh.
Hatzlacha Rabba!
I guess no one has an answer to my question, and its not right of me to blame anyone. Sorry. But this is our situation now and I think its time for a change. We have progressed so much over the past century. I think its possible to take the care of our health to the maximum level. We owe it to ourselves to care about living longer and healthier, and we might as well start where we can. All I’m asking is to try your best and take a little baby step to a next level in any habit that you find inhibiting you from advancing in your life.
What??!!! I don’t understand who these examples are talking about. Are they talking about the group or are they talking about the Orthodox Jews, and what was the general tone of the comments, I didn’t quite understand that either.
Have a good Shabbos 🙂
jphone, you are absolutely right. Its way better to get first hand info than from a website.
I never did have an allowance until I turned 18 and that was with my own bank accouny. I had to learn money mannagement skills and make sure I didn’t go into overdraft. But if I ever need help, even until today my parents are always there for me to help through the rough times. As a teenager, I’m not sure if you should be getting an allowance , but you should learn how to deal well with money so that when you come to a point where you have to make decissions on your own you have more stable background and experience than someone who is just learning the ropes for the first time at age 17 or 18.
But rebetzin, that makes it an even greater reason to stay. There is more tumah in a place that there is more kedusha so we have to fight harder even as adults to stay ahead of the game and not get sucked into the bad influences, and this issue of at-risk teens is a global phenomenon its not synonymous with just RBS. Its happening all over the world and stating that one place is better than the other or that you’re more protected somewhere else is a very naive approach to the issue at hand. And the statistic was just to prove a point its not a scientific equation that is completely accurate. thank you for the compliment of my staying abilities I hope more people will find the courage to move to Ertz Yisrael so that we can proove ourselves as a united AM-nation. We are a united nation we just have to work a little harder so that the rest of our family feels the same way and they feel like they belong with us. This is where we all belong.
I think this problem stems from the older generation. These days parents don’t have such a great handle on thier children, so of course they’ll do things to test the waters and sometimes it can be detrimental, almost life-threatening to our children’s lives, and now the way things have progressed are we able to stand up to our children and find them better outlets and better ways to rebel as teenagers, or have we given it up as a lost cause for the entire world that we can’t fix until Mashiach comes? Is it possible to take a look at our past and see where we are now and see if what we’ve become is worth it?
Ha Ha haifagirl, not funny. Its actually pretty sad. I geuss its the out of towner’s job to teach the in towner aboyt the outside world and not just that out of towners are from a different planet. But they actually live right next to just a little farther outthan NY.
Really?! What’s with the academic strong hashkafa background? How does tha fit with Ralph Lauren and ironing your hair for hours and looking like cookie cutter stamps?
Yoshi: “It all comes from experience”, and how did you stop in the end.I doubt it was so easy as 123. Of course people have to want to quit,in anything if you don’t want it it will never happen. But what can we do to help these people right now? I don’t think they’re mature enogh or responsible enough to make the decission to quit. Some opf them are too young to even differentiate between right or wrong. And we’re expecting these kids just to quit on thier own because they’ll be able to figure it out?! Speak logic and fact to me please not emotional experiences. You can’t really explain things like that to people.
Since when does medical science have the only say in the yeshiva world? Hashem can do anything He wants to proove to those of us that are toos imple to understand His great ways. So I still think if these people put their minds to it they can accomplish anything in the entire world.(even run in the olympics and win first prize) If you want it bad enough shoot for the top and with Hashem’s help you will succeed.
GOOD LUCK to all of those people that have dreams and willeach to their highest point and overcome thier habits (whatever they may be) and start living life in a way that YOU wll be proud of later.
Mazca why didn’t you write that in the end of your story? It was kind of misleading.
Shwekey- chasuna songs. Sameach…….
Ari goldwag has good songs
Mazel Tov!!!!!
So I don’t care how the person looks either,.What I care about is the fact that we as a whole society endorse smoking. Why? (rhetorical question) There is no answer because it won’t stop until we nip this disgusting habit in the bud.!!!
mazca, that sounds really sad, Who would say such a thing? I feel really bad for all the out of towners who live in brooklyn
Wow Nymom, that prooves my point why do people do things like that? So stupid of them.And do you think that wearing a mask will save the lives of our olympic athletes. No!! whats up with that? KolTuv
I’ve been living in Eretz Yisrael for the past three years in RBSA It was a very big adjustment but baruch Hashem with a lot of help and support I was able to acclimate into Israeli society well. I have changed a lot since I made Aliya and I believe its for the better.Living in a population where half of the anglo kids can’t make it in school and just drop out I find it a great achievement to have gotten to where I am today. I can’t see myself living in any other country than the country of my heritage- Israel.
Yes living in Israel is totally hard, but geuss what we’re suppposed to be in EY with yisurim until Mashiach comes. And also those of us that do live here have such a love of the land that by leaving it yopu are literally ripping out a part of our souls. I don’t think anyone that doesn’t live here can understand the tangibility of the kedusha here and if you do how can you as a jew just get up and leave?
Life is hard its supposed to be hard. As a friend once said:”Life’s a climb but the view’s great”
Would you explain to me where all of this is coming from? As I said previously who really cares where you’re from? I have lived in out of town all of my life up until a few years ago where now I live “in town” and the animosity that I live with just because I am an “out of towner” Now where did all of this rivalry come from? Is it fair do subject my children to such pain just because thier mother isn’ from what you would call “in town” (whatever that means) Well thats all I have to say for now, hope this opens people’s eyes and brings a little more sensetivity to people.
Thanks for the thread
MaKesher
Why not? Why can’t they run in the marathon? because they’re stupid enough to ruin their lives they won’t dream for higher pursuits? what a world we live in that the only thing we care about is looking good but when it comes to being healthy and spiritually smart we’re so out of touch that we don’t care. We do not even see it as an issue. What can we do about this I ask of you.