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hudi — Yasher Koach for being proactive about this area. It is so easy to underestimate the risks involved in a situation like this. As far as the negiah goes, I think mytake’s approach is very sensible. Sending out a mass email makes it into an issue. I think you are much better off explaining as the need arises, in a very matter of fact way.
As far as the bigger issue, I think that some on this thread are misunderstanding “cold”. It doesn’t seem that anyone is advocating rudeness. What is appropriate, however, is to come across as slightly reserved and private. Actually, that is very much a part of professionalism. It is not “professional” to mix personal life with your profession. One may choose to have both a personal and professional relationship with others, but that is a choice, not a requirement, and one who chooses not to do so is not being rude.
When I worked in the secular work place the men I worked with knew that I had no problem answering work related questions, helping out with something they needed guidance on, etc. But when the conversation turned to personal life, I was quiet. Not rude, but just nonresponse or short to the point responses. No one perceived me as rude — just as a private individual. They get the feeling very quickly. (I was married, and they were aware of it, but I don’t think that is enough in today’s world in any case.)
Additionally, they usually pick up very quickly that you have different standards. I often had co-workers apologize to me after using nivul peh in front of me — they’d look up and notice I was around and kind of get red and say “oh, sorry!” and I would just give a small smile and nod. I never said anything to anyone about nivul peh, but they understood instinctively that as a frum woman my standards were different.
I second truth be told’s point. A person only has a limited amount of time, energy, effort, etc. Seahorse you seem to be mixing two different questions: as far as your first half, I’m sure there are doctors/ lawyers/ engineeers who are frum and excited about practicing their religion BUT there are very few in my experience who are also “learners”. The time and effort that goes into both the schooling and post-school working hours of these professions make it very unlikely that they have time and Koach for real learning. Being that guys who are serious about learning understand this, they are less likely to go into those fields to begin with.
I do find that when you look at individuals in these fields who are older, you find more who are committed to learning, possibly because as you become more established you are able to have more control over your schedule. But I’m assuming you are talking about young guys.
We had a box of Sukkah decorations that never quite made it out to the garage, and was sitting in a corner since Sukkos — I was covering it to put out when I noticed. . . a piece of wafer mixed inside!!! Is there ANYPLACE that Chometz doesn’t get????
Is this an interesting find? A large handful of pasta (somewhat moldy, not raw) INSIDE my son’s boot! (No, I don’t usually clean inside boots, my toddler somehow got to it and dumped it all over an already cleaned room!) Does this mean I have to go back to all the closets and dump out each shoe to make sure there’s nothing inside. . .? And please, someone figure out for me HOW ON EARTH it got there in the first place!
Second traumatic find of the week: A whole Cheerio on the floor of an already cleaned room. I haven’t had Cheerios in my house in months!!!!! (Honestly I think this one may have fallen off the bottom of a table that was a kitchen table over a year ago, but has been moonlighting as a computer desk in above mentioned room. I didn’t scrub down the bottom of the “computer desk” as I no longer think of it as a kitchen table — I guess that’s the next thing on the list. . .)
cshapiro – I once heard a line to the effect that “one person’s chessed is another person’s parnassah.” Everyone must judge for themselves what they can afford to do for others, but generally speaking if something is your source of parnassah it is inappropriate for people to ask for a freebee. Meaning that if I have a guest room and someone asks me to put someone up for a Shabbos, it’s a great Chessed, but if my parnassa is that I own a guest apartment that I rent out, it would not be appropriate to ask me to “do a favor” and lend it. Similarly, if doing tax returns is your parnassah (or a part of it), I would definitely not say do it for free — you’re setting up a difficult precedent. If you don’t really do individual returns as a parnassah, and you have the time and want to do a Chessed, go ahead!
If you’re planning on nursing, I agree with yiddishemishpacha that you shouldn’t worry if things don’t go totally smoothly at first, and don’t give up too soon! A lactation specialist can really help if there are issues, and if you are going back to work as it seems from your questions regarding childcare, a good pump is definitely a very worthwhile investment. Also, as someone who nursed all my kids for over a year, I think it’s important to realize that nursing isn’t an “all or nothing” situation. If logistics force you to use formula occasionally that doesn’t mean you should give up on the nursing. For some nursing issues a speech-feeding therapist can also be very helpful.
Pregnancy is full of “weird pains”! Keep in mind that when you register at Babies R Us, they often offer you discounts down the line on things on your registry that weren’t yet bought. Also you get on their mailing list for coupons — and a few times a year they send out a booklet with coupons on the big ticket items like car seats and cribs, so registering sooner will give you more time to potentially get those coupons before you make your purchase. You can always go in later and change things that haven’t been bought yet.
And relax!!! We have the minhag not to prepare before the birth, and we don’t even take the car seat out of storage in adavance, and B”H we managed fine. There are very few things you NEED right away. There are a lot of online sites that will send you weekly updates as to what the baby is doing that week. I loved watching my baby change from an orange to a tissue box to a melon. . .you get the idea! If you plan on giving formula you can sign up with all the major formula companies and give them your due date. They send tons of coupons and free samples. There are also a buch of free baby magazines you can sign up for subscriptions (American Baby, Baby Talk), which are especially fun if you’re a first timer!
Bshaah Tova, feel good, and good luck!
I have a friend who planned a 10 Makkos treasure hunt throughout the Seder she gave the kids clues to different locations and when they went there they found something connected to each of the makkos (ex. red jello for dam, little toy frogs, etc.)
Puppets are also great for them to act out parts of the story as you read through the Haggadah. You can buy coloring books of the Pesach story and let them color them while you are cleaning the week before and let them follow the story from their books (the haggadas from school usually go through simanay haseder, not the story of Yetzias Mitzrayim.)
bina – this is what pba said that I was addressing:
“We should tell kids to behave better than normal because the torah teaches us to.
I feel like we’re telling kids to behave better than normal because we want people to think the torah teaches us to.”
He seems not to have a problem with telling kids to behave better than normal, but rather with the reasoning behind it — i.e. to project an image rather than because it is required by the Torah.
As far as what is “normal” for kids to do, if it is age appropriate behavior there probably is not an issue of Chillul Hashem, as there is nothing wrong being done. However if in fact your kids are capable of behaving better then normal, I can definitely hear that is good Chinuch in this general concept of people respecting Torah via the positive behaviors of those who keep it. But I would try to explain it more as I said above — something to the effect that the Torah requires us to always behave with Derech Eretz, speak respectfully, not fight, etc. When we are in public and people know that we are frum Jews we have another special responsibility to show everyone what the Torah teaches us, and be extra careful to follow everything we are taught.
I don’t know why I alway seem to resort to kids songs on these hashkific threads, but the chorus of the Kiddush Hashem song on the Marvelous Middos machine goes something like “you’ve got to show the world what the Torah teaches you” — that’s the message I try to send to my kids, not that we are putting on a show to give a false impression.
Again all this is dealing the with the third concept, not the actual main definitions of Chillul Hashem.
Taking welfare if it would fit in altogether would be in the second category (something that causes others to look down on you), which is actually more within the Halachic parameters of Chillul Hashem. But it is not clear that it would apply, as a big part of the question is if it is morally/ethically wrong to take welfare money or not (assuming you legitimately qualify, obviously). If it’s not wrong, but only gets people annoyed or doesn’t fit in with an individual’s work ethic, it is not likely a Chillul Hashem. As with all areas of halach lmaasah, everyone should ask their own Shaalah!
Pashuteh Yid — I have not seen the video and have no opinion of it. I agree that it is not right when people make it sound like the Japanese government has done something terribly wrong here — after all, drugs were being smuggled in, and they have strict drug laws. It seems clear that whatever mistakes the Japanese did seem to make (i.e. not allowing them to contact the person they were supposed to deliver to, which would have possibly led to the arrest of the real criminals) were only mistakes by the individual agents involved. Overall everything I’ve read from askanim involved seem to say that the Japanese government was behaving in an unusually flexible way according to their usual standards.
HOWEVER, I’d like to address your accusation which I keep seeing and I believe are not accurate. The boys’ defense is not that they were “smuggling” antiques. They were told they were importing delicate religious antiques, which were LEGAL and not subject to tax. They were told that the hidden bottoms, not shipping it, etc. was due to concern over theft and damage to the items. The basis of their defense pretty much is that these boys were sheltered and naive enough to believe this. The current appeal is focusing on the question of the lie detector test that the boys passed which is supposed to show that they did not have even a vague knowledge of their crime. (BTW Japan uses the most sophisticated of the 3 methods of questioning for polygraphs, and their style is considered extremely accurate.)
pba — Your complaint seems to say that the kids were given the message that the Torah does not require proper behavior, except in public. That indeed would be very poor Chinuch. I believe what we are trying to tell children is that they must be very careful to adhere to proper behavior as the Torah requires us the behave with Derech Eretz. If you do not live up to that in a public place where people clearly know you are frum Jews than you will be leading them to believe that the Torah does not require proper behavior. That is a Chillul Hashem (more in the colloquial use with regards to the concept of yehai shmai shamayim misaheiv. . .) in ADDITION to the obvious problem of lack of Derech Eretz.
This is similar to the way we teach that every word of L”H is many aveiros — are we saying that if it was “only” one aveira it would be ok? Obviously not, but it help psychologically to motivate one to be careful when the stakes are higher so to speak. Similarly the hope is that the added dimension of potential Chillul Hashem will help motivate students to behave in the way they should be behaving at all times.
AinOhdMilvado — See my above post which addresses your scenario:
If he is doing it intentionally, and it is illegal, it is a Chillul Hashem according to all opinions. If his employees were Jewish it would be considered a Chillul Hashem in public (much worse) — that aspect may not apply if it is only in front of non-Jews. If what he does is not illegal, but immoral by all standards, it would also be a Chillul Hashem. If it just viewed as immoral because his employees expect more from a supposedly religious person, it is likely still a Chillul Hashem, although there may be different opinions on this.
Of course that just addresses the Chillul Hashem aspect. Someone running a business in an illegal or unethical way is likely violating many other aveiros as well.
I don’t know if Raphael Kaufman’s post was supposed to be a joke, but I had a real experience that really made an impact on me.
I once had an appointment with my OB/GYN and she was late as she just came from a delivery in the hospital. As she entered the room I jokingly asked her “so, was it a boy or girl?” She paused for a moment and said she didn’t remember! I was surprised as she just delivered the baby less then an hour previously. She said to me “You don’t understand. In all my years delivering thousands of babies I have seen so much in the delivery room, that when things go smoothly and the baby and mother are fine, I have such a sense of relief and appreciation to Hashem that I can barely focus on anything else!” She meant it, too.
May we all be zoche to only healthy mothers and babies, both boys and girls!
This discussion actually surprised me because in my extended family I have a relative with Chrohn’s and 2 with ulcerative colitis (on different sides of the family and one related via marriage — none are related to each other), and none of them keep it secret. They’re not wearing signs or shouting from rooftops, but they’ll mention it casually in conversation, reference their medications or diet restrictions, etc. I never thought of this as something that is kept so secretive until I saw this thread.
As far as shidduchim, 2 are marrying off their kids already and it doesn’t seem to be an issue, and the third has a few siblings who got married after him and it never came up either. Maybe in Chassidishe circles there is still more of a stigma attached to medical conditions, and B”H 2 out of the 3 have very few flare ups, so maybe that is a factor?
oomis — You have a good point! But knowing that chances are things will spread doesn’t give you the right to be the one to spread it.
I haven’t learned the Rambam recently, and the concept is complex, but from my memory, this is how I understand it:
The primary definition of Chillul Hashem is to commit an aveira intentionally. If this were done in front of a minyan of Jews (as DH mentions), it would be Chillul Hashem in public. That would be a Chillul Hashem according to all opinions.
Additionally there is a secondary aspect to Chillul Hashem which is when someone acts in a way that decreases Hashem’s Kovod in the world. This is understood as to mean if someone acts in a way that is not befitting to him. He is doing something that is not perfectly right. I believe there is somewhat of a machlokes if this only applies when doing something objectively morally wrong, or even if it is only wrong because people expect more of that individual (i.e. the world holds Jews to a higher standard — perhaps due to antisemitism and they’re looking for problems, perhaps because they instinctively understand we have more obligations then them — either way if your action would be unbefitting to their perception of how you should behave)
Finally there is the general conept of “yehi shem shamayim misahev al yadcha”, that a person has an obligation to make Hashem “loved” through his actions, and that people should say “fortunate is one who teaches his child Torah”. Colloquially this concept has also been lumped under the concepts of Kiddush Hashem/ Chillul Hashem, although I’m not sure it’s technically the same mitzva.
So to apply to the above examples:
If something is a Mitzva, by definition it is a Kiddush Hashem to do it, not a Chillul Hashem. If something is an aveira, it is a Chillul Hashem (My understanding is that in addition to the aveira itself, if an aveira is done intentionally, there is also an aveira of Chillul Hashem. This can be in public or private –Pirkei avos discusses one is mechallel Hashem in private — although not all meforshim interpret it that way). The class trip/ telling kids to behave extra well probably falls under the third concept of causing others to say “fortunate are those who study Torah”, as may the messy house example. However for it to be Chillul Hashem there must be something wrong about it, either objectively or on a certain level. If something is completely fine to do, but bothers others for unreasonable reasons, there is no inyun of Chillul Hashem, even if the person gets upset a Jews as a result.
tro11 – This somewhat addresses your issue. The point is not what people say/ think about Jews. It is our obligation not to do anything wrong that will cause that diminishing of Kovod Hashem in the world. If your actions are not wrong, no issue. If they are somewhat wrong (being rude, cutting people off), it may fall under this concept according to the opinions that it would apply even if the “wrongdoing” is only due to higher expectations.
Bas Yisroel — I haven’t learned all the Halachos recently, but my understanding is that the assumption is that information is private unless you know otherwise (i.e. if it was told in public it is obvious that it is not private). I vaguely remember learning some examples such as is a person tells you they are moving or switching jobs. Unless the person tells you it is public, or they say it in front of 3 people you should not repeat it.
commonsense — Your example is slightly different, as an engagement is something that is clearly public. (Assuming you were told they were engaged, and not just “going to get engaged”, in which case it is clearly NOT public!) It seems the one who told you made the error by giving the impression they were engaged when they weren’t formally engaged yet.
Bas, I do agree that you should do “damage control” to the best of your ability and try to prevent it from spreading further.
Raphael Kaufman — Actually, that is not completely accurate according to Halacha. Revealing a confidence is considered avak rechilus, and any information that could reasonably be assumed to be private or secret should be considered as such unless the person told you the information in public (in front of 3 people), in which case it would be safe to assume it is not intended to be secret.
From the “Chofetz Chaim: A Lesson a Day”, Day 136:
“The most severe form of avak rechilus involves statements that reveal information which one was told in confidence. . . Divulging secrets breeds a lack of self control in speech-related matters which leads to actual rechilus. When publicizing a secret could prove damaging, doing so would constitute speaking both avak rechilus and actual loshon hora. Even when no damage was foreseen, the mere violation of confidentiality renders one a “holech rachil.”
Bas Yisroel — Nothing you can do at this point except apologize to the one who told you.
I don’t think this is usually not about “lowering” or “raising” any level, and I think this is a slightly different issue than the typical “do you teach to the strong or weak students?” The problem often arises when schools/ parents push ahead to get to the “next” step faster. This can be almost impossible for slower students, but it is not necessarily better for stronger students either. Putting more knowledge into your brain is usually not the best way to use it, and rushing to the next step may prevent even the stronger students from getting the most out of that stage.
A recent study comparing the science textbooks and curriculum used in various countries found that countries that produced students who did better in science generally had a curriculum that covered less topics per year, but spent much more time on each topic. Students taught like that were found to develop better understanding of the concepts rather than the facts, to retain the information longer, and to be more able to apply it to other situations. Lehavdil there are some similarities to the Zilberman model.
The point is not to go “slowly” and simply repeat everything numerous times (which would obviously be unfair to large numbers of students). The point is to build skills and knowledge in a systematic and developmentally appropriate way.
truth be told — I have worked in education for many years and have yet to find the student who becomes a real behavior problem simply because they are too bright and suffer from boredom. Actually my experience has been that weaker students, especially those with disabilities are the most likely to exhibit behavioral problems. In my experience the only students who act out from boredom are those who either require a lot of stimulation (i.e. they are bored from the style of the class, not as a result of the content being too easy), or have ADHD type of attentional or impulse control issues (seen in areas other than academics as well).
I’m not saying bright students are not bored — they often are, and I believe a teacher has as much of a responsibility towards the top students as towards the weaker ones. I am simply addressing what I think is the myth that the “boredom” of being “too smart” leads to behavioral issues. I would love to hear what other educators have observed.
Hey, we have Chometz on our walls! (Every seen what the wall looks like after a two year old smooshes his pizza against it?)
Perhaps it bothers you because you have bought into the beautiful sounding but totally false notion that “all men (and women) are created equal”. Although it is true that we have a responsibility to respect every individual as being created in the image of Hashem, people are not created equally. Some are smart, some are not, some are beautiful, some the reverse, some are strong, talented, rich, etc. Even from a spiritual perspective, some people are born into a frum family, some are not, some receive good chinuch, some don’t — the point is that we believe each person has a role in this world, and Hashem puts you in the situation you need to be in to accomplish that role. Part of the profile is whether you are a male or female. Men and women are different biologically, and in many other ways as well, and Hashem, who created us this way mapped out the path each gender must take to fulfill his will and hopefully achieve an eternity of dveikus bahashem!
This is not a contest as to which gender is “more spiritual”, and “more spirituality” is not even the goal! The goal is to do what Hashem wants from you, and to believe that you are created in the way that fits your role. (Just as you should theoretically believe when coming across someone with more of any other desirable quality.)
Bottom line, this isn’t about how anyone is “treated” — it’s about each individual doing what they have to do. (And yes, I would use this argument in non-spiritual things as well. Do we say it’s not fair that some people get to be lawyers and make lots of money while some flip burgers for minimum wage, let’s take turns and give everyone a chance to be a doctor, lawyer, etc.? After all, how can you discriminate against someone who may have been born with less of a particular skill?)
It most certainly depends on what school you went to. When I was in high school our teachers were always willing to answer hashkafa and yahadus questions, although sometimes the answer was “let’s discuss this after class” (which they did). My principal was also known as always being willing to meet with students to discuss any questions they had, whether philosophical or personal.
Not that they always let us take the lazy way out. . . I remember teachers responding to questions by recommending specific books and then saying bring it up again after you’ve read the book, or better yet give an oral summary to the class for extra credit. . . I remember when certain difficult questions or topics came up, teachers would give extra credit to students who would research the topic and write it up. . .
Overall my memory of high school was actually one of tremendous seeking and thinking, and I remember my friends discussing all sorts of issues relating to emunah and bitachon, bechira, etc., as well as discussions about the hashkafos behind tznius (a big one for high school girls!). I also remember discussing many of these topics with our teachers both in class and in extra curricular settings such as shabbatonim.
I did grow up out of town, so perhaps that explains why my experience was so different from that of the OP.
My husband once found a source (I’ll have to check the details with him later) that says not to say “ad meih v’esrim”, as why limit the scope of your Bracha? (It is used due to Moshe Rabbeinu, as mentioned earlier, not because it’s the “maximum” one can live). We say “ad bias goal tzedek” (obviously implying and beyond as well!)
cleverjewishpun “It’s similar to the problem in the 30’s and 40’s where men were losing their jobs every week and all they heard around the shabbous table was “It is so hard to be a Jew in America””
Absolutely — and R’ Moshe, tz”l is famous for saying that this complaining was big part of the reason that so many children of that generation left Yiddishkeit. But does that mean they should have worked on Shabbos? I always understood R’ Moshe’s point as we should be careful to present to our children the beauty and value of the sacrifices we are making happily for the sake of Torah.
The “tuition crisis” is not new. Hillel Hazaken had some trouble paying tuition, and almost lost his life as a result! There are numerous stories in Europe of extremely poor families who were moser nefesh to pay the melamed and ended up with sons who were great tzadikim. (Off hand I don’t remember the names, but I recall one story were the family sold the bricks of their fireplace, going without heat all winter so as to pay the melamed, and another where the mother gave up money she had been saving for years intending to buy herself a new dress.) The message that those kids got was that Torah learning is so important to us it is worth more than almost anything else in the world. Is that he message are children are hearing when we complain about tuition? I’m not saying we don’t need solutions — we most certainly do! But in the meantime, it is very possible for parents to communicate a different message rather than “I’m stressed out and broken down because of tuition”
charliehall — “The Catholic Church would never allow a school with 70 students per grade to continue operating. It would be forced to merge.”
This is not accurate. Even with the recent closures and mergers, the 9 Catholic elementary schools in Queens that I am personally familiar with all have only one or two classes per grade, with no more than 25 students per class — i.e. less than 50 students per grade. The high schools are significantly larger (and also have much more expensive tuition), but many still do not have more than 3 parallel classes per grade.
Your overall point about the economies of scale, however is a great point, and in my opinion a big part of the “tuition crisis”. As long as parents want schools that fit exactly the niche they are looking for, and we therefore have multiple tiny schools rather than a few larger ones, we are dealing with an innately inefficient model, however responsible and efficient administrators try to be. Additionally smaller schools generally do not have the budget for a specific staff member to oversea the finances, and often tend to be more laid back in their calculations.
However than is not really applicable to the one school mentioned previously in this thread. BYBP is one of the largest Bais Yaakov’s in the world (I think that the only larger ones are in Yerushalayim.) So whatever there financial issues are, it’s not too small a school!
Although this has been mentioned, I feel the need to say it again. There are THOUSANDS of young Kollel couples in Lakewood. I only know a few of them, so I cannot speak for everyone when I say that no one who I know “demanded” anything from their parents. Some are supported, some are not and really on the wife’s income, etc. Those that get support are very appreciative of their parents, and do not “demand” more and more. If a parent wishes to support a child learning, Kal Hakovod! If not and the child still chooses to learn in Kollel, they make it work a different way. (For the record – I never lived in Lakewood, but my husband did learn in Kollel, we were not “supported” nor did we get any government assistance. I worked at a decent paying job, and we lived simply. My parents did pay for my graduate school, although I know others in similar situations who even did that on their own via loans)
Unfortunately I’m sure the situation described here exists, as when you have such large numbers you get people with good middos and people with bad middos. If you took a group of thousands of working couples, some would have good middos and some would have bad middos, too. Kinah, taavah, gaavah are not unique to the Kollel community! I don’t disagree that this is wrong. I am objecting to the fact that everytime this discussion gets underway there is an underlying tone of many of the posters that “many” if not “all” of those sitting and learning are schnorrers with bad middos! How can anyone feel comfortable saying such motzei shem ra on huge numbers of individuals who are truly moser nefesh to keep the world standing! If you want to discuss the minority who do meet this description, please be careful as to how you say it.
When reading all the uninformed opinions in these type of discussions, it is easy to understand why schools don’t want to open up their books to everyone and anyone! That being said, I have no doubt that if someone who intends to make a large donation asks to see the books, he would be shown them.
But more to the point, zehavasdad, your numbers are very confusing. Generally speaking schools that are charging over $10,000 in tuition are paying their teachers SIGNIFICANTLY more than your numbers. (Generally the schools with higher tuitions are the more MO schools or the out of town schools. I taught secular studies in a somewhat MO school in the NY area 10 years ago and was making over $30,000 for the 3/4 of a day that I worked. I’m sure it’s more now.) Even the more “yeshivish” schools, whose tuitions are much lower, and who, contrary to your accusation, do give significant breaks, especially to families with many students in the same school pay teachers much more than $10,000! The operating expenses of schools are also often misunderstood.
Of course there are always ways to be more efficient and save money, and some schools are run better than others. But the crux of the tuition crisis is that it is expensive to run a school, even in the most efficient way. Just to give a frame of reference, as of 2005, in the public school system, NY spent $14,119 per student, and NJ $13,800! And this does not include Limudei Kodesh obviously. . . To be fair, NY and NJ are among the highest spending states, and government can’t do anything efficiently, but the point remains that education is expensive.
The Catholic school system is suffering financial difficulties of their own, despite the fact that the schools are mostly funded by the church hierarchy. In fact just 2 years ago the NY Diocese closed a number of Catholic schools in Queens as they could no longer afford to run them. They also converted quite a few schools throughout the city into “parish schools” where the local church becomes responsible for supporting the school, and “academies” where there is some sort of joint support (I’m not familiar with all the technicalities). Additionally, although their tuition levels are much lower, they very rarely give any tuition breaks (although some do have family discounts). Overall the whole model is financially very different.
yaff80 — Your calculations are not taking into account the down payment. Although it is true that when you rent you are “throwing away” that money, a big portion of those payments, especially in the beginning are to pay interest on your loan, which is also money thrown away.
On the flip side, you are tying up your down payment, which could theoretically been invested in such a way to make more money than the appreciation on your house. As many others said, this is a very individual financial question. For example, here in Israel banks require down payments of about 35%, so obviously that is a bigger factor than in the US where even with “tighter standards” you can easily put less than 10% down with good credit.
Also there are often additional expenses that come with homeownership, such as property taxes, which must be factored in. The market conditions and interest rates were already mentioned (in recent years many homes lost significant value). Tax benefits are also very individual. The benefits of deducting interest payments will vary depending on your income, size of your family, etc.
I’m not an accountant or financial planner, but I can definitely create scenarios in which it would not “certainly make more sense financially to buy.” Of course there are many psychological advantages to owning a home, but we are talking about the pure finances of it
Grandmaster — why don’t you ask your professor what cases he is referring to?
bpt — Did you read the original article? This guy IS working half a day — very productively according to the question. He is not on the typical “kollel path”.
It did not say he gets upset when she wakes him up. It says he takes a while to get up and out of bed. He gets upset when she tries “discussing” the situation with him. I understood that to mean when she nags him about the fact that he doesn’t get up for davening! Most men would respond defensively when his wife complains about something like this. The responders seemed to understand it in a similar way, with many of them warning against being confrontational and nagging, and to try to get to the bottom of the issue by having a positive discussion with him.
The advice included
“discuss with him why he is disenchanted with the learning part of his day. . .”
“you need to get as much understanding as possible of the crucial question: why is this terrific guy having such a hard time? Why is it so difficult for him to get up?”
“you want to create a sense of caring, sharing , being a team.”
“reprove the wise part of the person, highlighting his many positive attributes”
There are numerous lines about being nonjudgmental and accepting, suggestions that there may be a deeper issue that can only be discussed if the wife is supportive and encouraging. There are also recommendations for him to consider changing his schedule, perhaps doing his learning at night with a chavrusah if this morning kollel doesn’t work for him.
It seems like none of the posters read the question or answers!
truth be told — You raise some interesting questions. With regard to your “social life” question, however, I think you may have misunderstood the article. It said he was self-employed — that is not the same as saying he worked from home.
Grandmaster — “Has anyone here’s grandmother, even once, nursed in public (including covered up)? I sincerely doubt it. I doubt even the goyim of that generation were wont to do so. How did they manage?”
Actually, I have a nursing book published in 1958 with an entire chapter discussing how to nurse discreetly in public places! I agree that nowadays many goyim nurse in ways that are indiscreet and obviously not tznius, but that’s not our discussion.
In addition, I don’t have the source but I know this topic is discussed by Chazal, and that even in the times of Chazal women dealt with this issue.
bpt — “Airplane restrooms are cleaner than some kitchens. And as far as the wait, waiting on line for the restroom is a given. You’re just as entitled to your time slot as the next person.”
I don’t know what airplanes you’ve been flying on, or whose kitchens you’ve been eating in. . . Many public places have reasonably clean bathrooms, but NOT airplanes in my experiences (airports are actually not so bad). As far as “your time slot” the bathrooms on airplanes are assumed to be used for a specific purpose. The time slot required to use the facilities, even if you need some extra time is no where near what is required to nurse an infant — particularly if you have a slow eater. One of my kids had poor sucking skills and required about 45 minutes per feeding (and as a young baby ate every 3 – 4 hours. Tying up a restroom for 45 minutes every 4 hours is a lot more than would be considered a reasonable time slot!
It honestly sounds that you don’t have much experience with babies being nursed exclusively or primarily, which is why you are having trouble understanding this discussion. For many women, “just give a bottle” is not a practical solution for the baby or the mother, and that seems to really be what you mean by “alternatives”.
I would have no problem with my son sitting next to a properly covered woman feeding her baby. I do not think he would turn shades of purple — I think he would probably not notice, and if did cross his mind “hey, I wonder if she’s nursing under that blanket” he wouldn’t think twice about it!
pba — You seem to have had some bad experiences in your life on this issue, and I’m sorry. However it seems to me you did not read either the question or answer with an open mind. The issue seems to be that this guy has trouble getting up in the morning — not that he hates learning! In fact one of the respondents even qualified their response by saying “I’m assuming your husband knowshe should be learning and davening AND WISHES TO DO SO.” (emphasis mine) In other words, they are not discussing a guy who doesn’t want to learn, but rather one who has trouble over coming his yetzer harah to get out of bed in the morning. Is it so difficult for your to understand that even someone who wants to learn and daven bzman may find it difficult to get up? Why must it be “he hates learning, because he is not good at it”? I personally know of cases of boys who are excellent in learning and learn very shtark all day but who have trouble getting up for shachris.
She also explained that in general her husband is a “night owl” who stays up late, making the problem worse. Many of the respondents addressed that issue with recommendations to switch to an evening chavrusah instead of learning in the morning. The “peer pressure” response was in connection with recommending he join a daf yomi shuir — certainly not saying he must stay in yeshiva! Even if he leaves yeshiva totally, as per your suggestion, I would assume his wife would want him to be davening with a minyan in the morning and bein Kovaih Ittim, but of which are obligations even for men not in yeshiva!
I actually found the responses to be mostly reasonable and flexible, and none of them implied that her husband must be in Kollel. They all agreed however, that it is somewhat reasonable for a women to expect her husband to be getting up in the morning, davening, and learning something at some point of the day. They also made clear that she is limited in her ability to “force” this on her husband, and warned that criticism and nudging are not appropriate, and tried to give positive ways for her to be encouraging. Doesn’t sound like the path to divorce in my book. . .
I’m completely with Mother in Israel on this one. Although I try to avoid nursing in public, as it often makes people uncomfortable, and I believe it is spoken about in Chazal as being inappropriate (although not assur). I have absolutely no problem nursing on a plane (especially a long flight such as from E”Y). I am a very experienced nursing mother, and I still would have trouble nursing my baby in the tiny airplane bathrooms, in addition to all the previous points mentioned regarding smell, germs, and occupying the bathroom for an extended period of time. Additionally, most babies need to nurse during take off and landing, a time when you are not even allowed to be in the bathroom! (Unless you would prefer my baby screaming and thrashing rather then nursing quietly and privately in my lap!)
popa_bar_abba — I don’t understand your post at all. How are you comparing issues involving exposing oneself (such as the slit, bare calf issue), to nursing? Obviously we are talking about being completely covered. You only know I am nursing because you can deduce it, not because you see anything inappropriate. And I am sitting in my own seat — not parading in public! Personally I can nurse completely covered without even a blanket/ nursing cover up, but I use one anyone just to be absolutely sure I am not in any way exposed. I really do not understand the lack of tznius in this issue, as long as one goes about it in a tzniusdik way! (I do try to ask for a window seat so I am at most making one person uncomfortable!)
Sac — Many babies do not take bottles for various reasons. Additionally, a mother who is nursing exclusively or mainly cannot simply skip a few feeding without physical consequences — and I assume you would be just as uncomfortable with a woman expressing milk as with her nursing!
bpt — I’m surprised you find this unexpected, as to the best of my knowledge all the frum women I know who nurse do so on planes, and I travel in pretty “yeshivish/ chareidi” circles. I would have a problem with any picture of myself being randomly taken and posted on the internet, but I would not be any more upset because I had a blanket over my body (in a picture you may not even be able to tell I’m nursing, as you didn’t see me holding the baby before!) Many people on planes sit with blankets up to their chin!
mbachur — The side effects discussed with regard to soy formula are long term, not short term. The studies are somewhat inconclusive and controversial, but there is definitely enough reason for concern to have a chat with your doctor and posek. If your child can’t tolerate milk, there may be no choice. Also if the formula is just a supplement to nursing, it is less of an issue. But soy does contain the hormone estrogen, and a baby who is exclusively formula fed soy formula receives so much it is the same dose of hormones as in a daily birth control pill. How that effects a baby long term is still unclear.
ZeesKite — If one is truly happy for their friend’s good luck, success, happiness, then they would not have the jealousy problem. The question is how do you get to the point of not being jealous? Many of the sifrei mussar explain jealousy as coming from a lack of emunah, rather than as you imply a lack of Ahavas Yisroel. In other words, if we could somehow truly internalized the concept that Hashem runs the world, and that what someone else has in no way “takes away” from what we have, and that Hashem is absolutely just and exacting in his cheshbonos even if to us it doesn’t seem “fair”, there would be no more jealousy.
observanteen — Acknowledging and trying to address these feelings are a bit part of the battle! This has sort of been said already, but I find the most helpful message to be giving myself is the idea that we are put in this world for a specific purpose, and as R’Ellis, shlita says, all the details of your situation are “custom made” to allow you to accomplish what you need to accomplish. When you stay focused on the end goal, and realize that even if we don’t know why, our situation is best for us, it helps.
There’s a great song on the kids tape “Uncle Moishy Visits Torah Island”, where they basically talk about how each profession has it’s own “tools”, and the chorus goes something like this:
“Every Jew has a mission —
A special job to do,
And whatever you need to do your job,
Hashem will give to you.
So if your friend has more talents, more ???,
More games, or more money to spend,
Just remember, you don’t need it!
And be happy for your friend.”
Good luck!!
Not to address the practical question (ask your Posek!), but people should be aware that soy based formulas are significantly less healthy than milk based ones, and new studies are showing there may be significant health issues involved with consuming large amounts of soy products. Obviously if a baby can’t tolerate the milk based formula there may be no choice, but if it’s due to the CY issue, make sure to speak to your Dr. and get all the information to present when asking your Shailah.
Also, many of the soy based formulas still contain milk products (I believe Similac’s does. . .)
Having worked for a number of years in the NYC DOE, I feel many politicians who go after public employee unions miss a critical point. I am philosophically a conservative, and don’t believe that unions in their current incarnation are good for the country or economy, but I would never consider a government job that is not unionized. Simply put, government bureaucracy is terrible from all angles. Almost no one takes personal responsibility for anything, and most people have very narrow areas of jurisdiction. Private companies generally have HR departments whose job it is to keep good workers happy. Governments generally don’t even know who the good workers are. (These are generalizations, but tend to hold true.) So the unions end up filling the role of an HR departments. When I had problems with my health insurance because a secretary somewhere filed something wrong, and for over 7 months it still wasn’t sorted out, my supervisor advised me off the record to speak to the union. I did and they had it solved in 2 days! Most teachers have had some experience where the unions helped them when they just hit a dead end trying to deal with the DOE. For many years teachers couldn’t even get phone numbers for staffers at the HR headquarters at Court St. — everything went through your school secretary, who often didn’t know information herself, and certainly couldn’t do anything about it.
As long as public employers do not have their own structure to help support employees, anything that looks like an attack on the union is going to be fought against very strongly.
“Private school *principals*, however, often make substantially more than public school principals even the schools are much, much smaller. I know of one principal at a Jewish Day School who was making over 400K/year, and numerous others in the 200K-300K range. The top of the salary scale for NYC public school principals is just over $150K.”
Over 400K a year funded by tzedakah money is absurd. However, your comparison is not totally accurate, as a principal in a Yeshiva generally fills a much broader administrative role than one in a public school. (Although in MO schools it is probably more similar, as they tend to have more administrative staff.) Public school principals (In NYC — I’m not familiar with the rest of the country) are supported from below by numerous AP’s, coaches, non classroom professionals (therapist, SBST members, etc.) and multiple office staff. Then there is a whole hierarchy above in the various networks and central offices. (Which have been changing with each reorganization, so I can’t specify the titles, but they still exist, now I believe mostly in the CFN). If you would take the total money spent on administrative positions in the NYC DOE, not even including the real higher ups in the Chancellor’s office, and divide by the number of schools, you will find that yeshiva administrators are generally not overpaid!
BTW, I happen to feel that the tremendous waste that goes on by having so much central staff is big part of the problem. I was working for the NYC DOE at the time of Bloomberg’s first reorganization, and thought he had a great idea by merging 30 something districts into 10 regions. Problem is the only place they really reduced staff was at the clerical level!!! Less secretaries making minimum wage, but not fewer administrators making high salaries! (For ex., each district used to have one District Administrator for Special Education. In the new structure, a region made up of 4 districts had 4 Regional Administrators for Special Education! I’m not picking on any specific job, just illustrating a point.) Then again, in NYC most principals and administrators are unionized as well (Why doesn’t anyone pick on the CSA?)
Additionally your starting salary for teachers is not completely accurate either, as you can no longer receive long term teacher certification from NYS without a master’s degree, so very few teachers actually make the starting salary for a BA — if you look at the same chart there is a column for what teachers with a master’s make, which is more. Then again, if they have a higher level of education they should make more. . .
SJSinNYC —
Even according to the Poskim who are matir it, my understanding is that they are addressing a bedieved situation — i.e. if a man is in the presence of a woman with this amount of hear showing, can he make a bracha. They are not stating that it is fine for a woman to intentionally show her hair. Also it is generally explained as this is an amount that often will slip out (as mentioned by previous poster, over the ears or if the tichel slips a bit), and is cumulative. Sheitels/ falls that are designed to “blend” with your hair to create a more natural hairline are certainly not in the spirit of this psak, and in my experience unfortunately don’t even meet the letter of the psak (i.e. much more than “one finger” worth is being shown). It is a similar issue for women who really on this to pull back their snood or tichel and show a sliver of hair: if you start out according to exactly the limits, what happens if your tichel slips back, or hair escapes over the ears — you have lost your “safety zone” and are violating halacha.
As mentioned by other posters, whey bother starting with a bottle? Just give him a cup (sippy, regular with straw — I like the sippy type with the straw that pops out of the top) and work on increasing his solid foods. The AAP recommends not using a bottle past 1 anyway due to teeth related issues. At 10 months, he is old enough to begin most solids. Besides oatmeal and jars, why don’t you start finger foods? Cheerios, of course, and very small soft pieces of fruits or veggies (cut up and cooked carrots and sweet potatoes, small pieces of bananas, etc.) Or dairy products like yogurt and cottage cheese (sliced cheese is still considered a choking hazard). Introduce foods one at a time to check for allergies. If after a week or two your baby is still gagging on regular food, you should consider speaking to a speech therapist who specializes in feeding, as it may be indicative of oral motor issues or sensory issues in the mouth.
Unfortunately, I also never found that eating more by day or putting them to sleep with a full stomach helped my kids to sleep through the night. A lot of it is the personality of the baby. If your issue is getting the baby to sleep, that is not really a bottle vs. nursing issue, that is a separate question. (Although it may be coming up now if you always used to nurse baby to sleep. If that’s the case, the baby will need to transition to a new method of going to sleep in any case now that you’re not nursing, why make it a bottle?) Ferberizing works well if that fits your parenting philosophy/ comfort level.
It starts WAY before gemorah. Kids are starting to learn to read in 4 year old programs. Most yeshivos / Bais Yaakovs in the US are expecting kids to be at least beginning to read in 2 languages BEFORE starting first grade. Many kids are fine like this — but many are not.
The irony of it is that many studies have shown that starting academic skills at a younger age does not in any way improve the student’s long term progress. Kids who are taught to read at a slightly older age simply learn the skill faster. And by focusing on these skills at a younger and younger age, we are loosing out on time that could be spent teaching and working on the age appropriate social and readiness skills that are such a critical foundation for future success.
My personal hunch is that most educators would agree that this is an issue, but will not change anything for fear that it would harm the school’s image. Parent’s must take a part of the blame for wanted their kids to be in the “best” school, and by judging that according to which school is winning the academic race.
It’s like the homework conundrum — parents complain that kids have too much homework, too complex assignments, etc., but if a teacher doesn’t give homework (particularly in older grades), parents complain that the teacher isn’t teaching anything!
Everyone agrees that a man must be attracted to his wife. But people often don’t realize what will attract them, and how things may feel different went they are part of an entire person rather than words on a list. I know of a case of a boy who broke up with someone after dating a number of times because he just wasn’t comfortable with some aspects of how she looked, and it did not feel better to him even after they went out a few more times. (I think most people would agree that is legitimate.)
The funny thing is, that the girl he eventually married was in my opinion not as good looking as the first one, and she was even a bit heavy! So no, it wasn’t that he had some unreasonable checklist. Somehow in his eyes the second girl was more attractive to him. Hashem created the world in such a way that beauty is subjective!
I also know of a case where a girl broke off dating with someone because he was too short and it bothered her. The funny thing is this girl was short, as were her father and brothers, and she always thought she would not have a problem with a short husband. Somehow when she actually went out with a short guy she just wasn’t comfortable with it. She did actually marry a tall husband.
That’s why I think being “makpid on looks” on paper is just plain silly. One doesn’t really know how things will “click” in real life. If you are dating and find your date unattractive, then obviously it would be fine to break it off.
Stamford Hilly Billy — Yes, that is very BASIC economics. The point of my post was that this economic argument only applies if there are only 2 items on your budget (when I took economics years ago the classic chart was guns vs. butter, if I recall correctly). The theoretical concept does not apply here as you can take money for Matanos Leevyonim from any part of your budget, not only from the $10 you designated for Shaloch Manos! Anytime you make a decision to spend money on anything, there is an opportunity cots — you could have spent it on Tzedakah instead — why is it only the Mitzva of Shaloch Manos that gets a bad rap? (I don’t hear people say — I’ll spend less on my Yontiff Seudah, and give up the meat this year so I can give more Maos Chitim before Pesach.)
Again, if you read my original post, I’m not advocating expensive Shaloch Manos (we actually spend very little). I am just addressing the reasoning that subtly accuses those who give more Shaloch Manos of giving less Matanos Leevyonim, or having misplaced priorities.
yaff80 – It is true that people are more tempted to do things that bring Kavod. But giving less Shaloch Manos will not make your Matanos Leevyonim any more public! I am in full agreement that everyone should give Matanos Leevyonim to the best of their ability, and I think your idea of “hakaras hatov” envelopes to teachers is very appropriate. We also send something financial to the Rabbeim together with the Shaloch Manos — but I don’t calculate that as coming from either my Shaloch Manos or Matanos Leevyonim.
Spending a lot of money on Shaloch Manos and giving a lot of people are not necessarily the same thing. We sent many people, but each shaloch manos costs less than $3 (I send something homemade — usually cake or kugel and one other “min”). My kids love giving out the packages, and we enjoy the opportunity to show people we were thinking of them. I always prepare a few extra in case someone shows up who we forgot to put on our list.
commonsense — you have a lot of common sense!
I don’t understand the posts saying “better give more matanos leevyonim” or “give more to the teachers” as if the only thing anyone is spending money on is shaloch manos!!! Why can you only give extra matanos leevyonim if you give less shaloch manos? Are those the only 2 items on your budget, so one is at the expense of the other? These are two mitzvos, and everyone should try to give as much matanos leevyonim as they can, and to fulfill the mitzva of mishloach manos in the best way they can.
charliehall — With regard to your last point, in NYS educators are also mandated reporters. If I recall correctly there is a bit of wiggle room in that a school could set up a structure where one individual is the mandated reporter (i.e. a principal), and everyone else only has an obligation to report suspicion of abuse to him. But most yeshivos do not have that set up anyway, so anyone going into Chinuch should clarify this issue with their posek and a lawyer.
BTW, just for interest sake, in Israel EVERYONE is a “mandated reporter”, meaning if it comes out that you had information about suspected abuse and don’t report it to the authorities you could be held legally liable. Obviously this is very hard to prosecute practically, but technically that is the law.
aries2756 — correct except the mitzva of Mishloach Manos is fulfilled by sending to only 1 person (and sending that one person 2 types of ready to eat food items.) Matanos Leevyonim is required to be given to 2 poor people.
fix-it-up — “it’s “bad” raising kids in Israel” seems like a very simplistic perspective of a very complex issue. What does “bad” mean exactly? IMHO it’s “bad” raising kids anywhere — it is one of the biggest challenges in life (part of Chava’s curse, after all) wherever you live, and obviously a tremendous source of satisfaction.
As you yourself seem to realize, each location comes with its own set of challenges. The issues you will have to contend with will vary from place to place. Some basic differences have been mentioned by previous posters.
To just address the E”Y part of the question, perhaps what the person quoted meant to say it that it is difficult to raise kids in an environment where your home culture is different than the school culture. This is particularly true if you move once your kids are already somewhat older. As SJS said, society in Israel tends to be more extreme in many ways, and have more rigid societal norms. Additionally the culture is more “rough and tumble”, particularly by the boys, and American kids used to a much softer tone may have trouble with it. Finally, kids in E”Y tend to have much more freedom at a much younger age, which has benefits but also dangers that a parent must contend with. As an American (I’m assuming you are American as you are comparing it to Lakewood), these may be challenges you would face in E”Y.
That being said, things are not what they used to be in E”Y in many of these regards. There are certainly areas in E”Y where there are larger percentages of Anglo families and therefore the societies are more open-minded. (Again, there are advantages and disadvantages to living in these type of areas, but if you are concerned with some of these Chinuch issues, the options exist.) There are also school options even within the Chareidi world that are more “American style” (and even allow ball playing!)
Of course there are tremendous advantages to raising kids in E”Y as well as the challenges. The less of a focus on materialism is just the tip of the iceberg. It’s not easy anywhere — raising kids is hard work and a lot of tefilah, but there is a lot of “good” together with the “bad.”
And of course, (this probably should have been first), living in E”Y is a Mitzvah D’oraisah! So this is really a topic that should be discussed with your Posek, as far as what your personal chiyuvim with regard to this mitzva are, in your personal circumstances.
Is it bothering you to have your baby in your bed? Many women find it easier, especially when nursing to keep the baby in their bed so they can sleep at night and if the baby wakes up, he can just eat in bed while you basically sleep. If in fact you are having trouble sleeping with a baby in your bed, many women I’ve spoken to have had success with the Ferber method. (I’ve used a modified version on my kids, but they stayed in my bed till an older age.)
A tetanus booster is required every 10 years to maintain immunity. In addition, any adult who comes in contact with babies (i.e. parents, caregivers) should be immunized against pertussis (whooping cough), a very common cough that can be very dangerous if caught by a baby who has not yet completed the series.
Often these 2 immunizations are given together as part of the DTaP/ DTP shot (which also includes immunization against diphtheria).
Pregnant women, the elderly, and others in certain high risk categories should receive a yearly flu shot in the beginning of the fall
pba, If you read this thread you will see that this is exactly what we are discussing – the y”h to dress in a not tzniusdik way, and how to deal with that nisayon. As far as how that y”h manifests itself in our emotional perception of ourselves and our clothing — as mentioned before — you are not a female, please don’t attempt to “understand”.
As far as your practical questions — even when one is no longer “growing”, women are constantly changing size and shape, and outfits that were ok at one point may no longer be appropriate, but since they are sitting in your closet, they present a BIG nisayon on a regular basis as a result of this y”h.
Now go find a different thread!