Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Shlishi “As far as information, you must always ask a shaila before giving any negative information.”
You must also always ask a shaila before WITHHOLDING any negative information. There are situations where one has a chiyuv to tell over information with regard to a shidduch, and situations where it is assur. There is no such thing as to err on the side of caution — you must always ask a shaila.
Although I certainly don’t think it is the “main” cause of divorce, there is a definite number of divorces that occur when information that should have been told before the marriage was withheld and only came out afterwards. (This is particularly true with “quick” divorces.) Had this information been known, the marriage would not have taken place, and obviously neither would the divorce. (I have first hand knowledge of two such cases, one where the divorce took place about 7 weeks after the marriage with the full encouragement of Daas Torah, and the other which took place a few months after the marriage, with the added tzaar of a child on the way. . .)
The windows on the door of the bathroom in many Israeli apartments (not all), are opaque windows that cannot open, and I think the reason is as cherry bim said, so light can get in and you don’t need to turn the light on (saves electricity), but I’m not sure.
Toi — that is intentional — it is to allow steam to escape and air to circulate to help avoid issues of mold. (You are supposed to open the window after the shower so the bathroom dries out.) This is similar to many bathrooms that have venting fans for the same reason.
As far as the fasting discussion goes, I heard a story once and I don’t remember which gadol it happened with. A middle aged man was sick and the doctor had said it was dangerous for him to fast on Yom Kippur. This man however felt very strongly that he had fasted his whole life on Yom Kippur and wasn’t going to stop now. His concerned family turned to a gadol with the shaalah. The gadol immediately went to speak to the man who was adamant in his intentions to fast, despite the psak halacha to the contrary. The gadol responded that if that was the case he would forbid any shul from giving this man an aliyah again, as we do not give an aliya to an apikores! The man was astonished and the gadol explained that one who fasts when the halacha says he should not is not worshiping Hashem but rather he is “worshiping” Yom Kippur!!!
Every case is different, but if your posek has forbidden you to fast, then that is your avodas Hashem for the day!
I have actually heard this question asked to a Rosh Yeshiva of a large NY area yeshiva, with regard to young Kollel couples. He responded that couples having other couples over for meals IS something to be concerned about. He mentioned both issues — it leads to socializing with the opposite gender, and it can lead to shalom bayis issues due to comparisons. (This is especially true with younger couples who are still becoming comfortable in their roles. Additionally once there are older kids at the table the men/ women socializing issue is less)
Despite this, he felt there were certain advantages. (Not Hachnasos Orchim which, as has already been discussed, applies to someone in need of a place.) He felt that it is particularly important for women to have a “social life” (my words, not his), and often it is difficult during the week when holding down a job and caring for young children. Therefore his recommendation was that it is ok to do, but couples should not repeatedly have the same people over and over, which creates more intimacy and opportunities for problems. Rather they should rotate and invite different couples each time.
Of course each person should speak to their own rav or mentor for personal application.
droid — A woman with children is less likely to be a molester out looking for a victim. Obviously you can never be 100% sure about anyone (including policemen, etc.). But if a child is in a situation where they are lost and have no choice, I teach my children to look for the following in THIS ORDER:
1) Policeman in a uniform
2) Worker behind the counter in a store with people inside
3) Lady with children
I don’t think it likely that my kids would be somewhere without any of these 3 categories.
I also think aries ideas are great, especially with regard to making sure your child has your cell-phone number with them at all times.
AZ — I think NASI is a great organization and agree with a lot of your points. I am very confused about one aspect — your idea of boys dating earlier. I understand your opinion, but you keep saying comments like “the 70 R”Y agree” or even stronger language (“take responsibility” “advise this course of action”). That is definitely NOT accurate. There may be some of the R”Y who agree that boys should date younger, but nothing in the letter says anything like that. The letter basically says close in age shidduchim should be promoted, and shadchanim should give priority to older GIRLS. I happen to know first hand that at least 2 of the R”Y on the list strongly do NOT agree that boys should be dating younger and feel that girls should be getting married slightly older instead. I’m not sure that having girls wait is something that is practical, as parents are so nervous about the crisis they may not agree, but that doesn’t mean the R”Y agree with the reverse.
adorable — If your child is asking you a question, it means they are ready to hear your answer, which should always be truthful. Hence you still don’t have that problem of “teaching them something that is inappropriate for them to know.” Again, what about the above points would lead to inappropriate questions? I honestly cannot think of any to be prepared for, and my kids are real “questioners”!
Telling a child that no one is allowed to touch them in the private parts of the body is not any more “inappropriate” then telling them that no one is allowed to punch them.
I have had this conversation numerous times with all my kids and have never been asked an “inappropriate” question. The most awkward question I was asked was “why would someone do that anyway?”, to which I explained that most people don’t, but sometimes there are people who may have problems that make them do strange or wrong things, and that’s why if something like that ever happens you should tell me right away, no matter who it is, so you can be safe and we can make sure the person’s sickness is taken care off.
I think that since adults tend to be very uncomfortable talking about personal topics they project their awkward feelings about this topic on to their kids. Most kids can deal with this information in a very matter of fact way, as long as the parent is calm and matter of fact. In general it is important for kids to feel they can ask you any question and that no topic is taboo — don’t you want to be their source of information when they have questions on these topics? But this particular conversation is nothing to worry about. (I’ve had much more “sticky” questions just in the normal course of life events. . . )
adorable — There is absolutely no need to teach “young innocent children” anything “not appropriate for them to know” in order to protect them. You need to teach them things that are very appropriate for them to know. Read my previous post for some ideas, but in summary, you need to teach them not to keep secrets and that their body belongs to them and no one has the right to touch them or even look at certain parts of their body without a very good reason (i.e. a doctor). The second part can be a very natural part of teaching tznius in general to young kids. I have discussed these topics with my kids starting from about 4 years old, and never felt the need to discuss anything inappropriate.
Droid — It is more proper for the giver to be anonymous, but it is also proper for an institution to express Hakaros Hatov — so why should the default be no recognition?
Without addressing whether this problem is rampant where, we all agree that ANY such cases are too many. I want to just reinforce something that was mentioned by previous posters. The first line of defense against abuse, even from family members is to educate our children.
From a very young age kids should be taught that they NEVER need to keep a secret from those who care about them. If anyone does something to them or makes them do something and tells them not to tell anyone, they should immediately tell a parent or another adult that they trust. Even if they promised not to tell, or if the person told them they will get in trouble, or if the person telling them to keep a secret is a relative or teacher, they still MUST always tell someone else. Older kids can understand that if an adult or older child is doing something to/with them and insisting on secrecy, that is a sign that it is likely wrong.
And of course kids should be taught that their bodies belong to them, and no one is allowed to touch them in a way that makes them feel uncomfortable. Also no one may touch them, and they should not touch anyone else in any private part of the body, even if it does not bother them or feel bad, and if it happens they should make sure to tell an adult they trust right away.
Molesters depend on the secrecy of their victims. Empowering children to break that secrecy in the very early stages of an abusive relationship is one of the main preventative actions we can take.
Wolf put it well.
Another point to consider — institutions often want their donors to publicize the donations as it often motivates others to give as well, for a variety of reasons. Sometimes other donors will consider the fact that someone they know has given big donations to this institution as a sort of “haskama”, and it makes them more willing to give. Sometimes it’s plain old fashioned peer pressure, and sometimes it helps build excitement. Also if the honor being received is in the form of a fundraising event (like a dinner honoree, or even a Chanukas Habayis for the building they named), the hoopla surrounding the event also leads to more donations from friends and associates of the honoree. The point is that there are times when a tzedakah will literally beg a donor to accept an honor, even if the donor would prefer to give quietly. (Obviously there are those who run after Kovod, but just because someone is getting recognized doesn’t mean he was looking for it.)
real-brisker — I don’t know anything about the halachos of mesirah, but it seems to me assuming both people are Jews you are not talking about mesirah (had you called up the police it would be a different story. . .) — although the victim may have that shaalah.
The issue seems to be one of rechilus (reporting to someone something bad that someone else said/did to them), and would therefore be subject to the rules of rechilus l’toeles. Enabling someone to receive compensation that is coming to them is in that category, provided the prerequisites for rechilus l’toeles are met, including first hand knowledge (you saw it happen), first attempting to speak directly to the wrongdoer, accurate reporting with no exaggeration, there is no other way for justice to be done, you have no ulterior motives, and the person spoken about will not receive any harsher punishment then what is coming to him under halacha. In this case the two that may pose a problem seem to me to be that you didn’t first attempt to speak to the person directly, and the fact that by reporting him he may end up being forced to pay something that is not in accordance with Halacha, as others posted earlier. I don’t know bottom line — ask a Posek! But it is not simply a matter of saying “mind your own business” because in a case where rechilus is considered l’toeles, often you have an OBLIGATION to say it.
aries — That is exactly what I am saying — you summed it up in one sentence.
real-brisker — Budgeting does not mean you are assuming nothing will change, and it doesn’t have to mean planning all your expenditures for the year. Some people budget monthly or even weekly. The idea of budgeting is that you live within your means by planning and keeping track of your spending. If Hashem gives you more you can then spend more — but to spend it in advance with the excuse that “Hashem will provide whatever I choose to spend” seems like bizarre reasoning to me.
Perhaps what is bothering you is the second part of your question “have almost every penny figured out”. Thinking that you have figured everything out does seem to indicate some lack of bitachon. I don’t think most responsible spenders believe they have “almost every penny figured out”. There are always unexpected expenses that come up, and there also may often be unexpected money received. If someone has a real unexpected need come up (medical treatment for example), there certainly is the concept of bitachon that you do what you can and trust that Hashem runs the world and whatever is happening is meant to be. If you are meant to loose all your money, all the responsible planning in the world won’t change it, and if you are meant to be rich the fact that you currently work at a $20,000 a year job won’t prevent it. That still does not give you the right to spend money you don’t have!
Again I’m not sure where budgeting sends the message that you believe the money is coming from a Basar V’Dam rather than Hashem. If you are uncomfortable budgeting in advance, work backwards — only spend money Hashem has already given you. So plan next month’s expenditures based on what you made this month, and if Hashem provides you with more next month, you can increase your budget for the month afterwards.
Would you say a person should just go out and buy the most expensive home on the market, and have bitachon that Hashem will give him the money to pay off the mortgage, even though there is no al pi derech hatevah way to get it? If anything I would say spending less or more cautiously is more indicative of bitachon, as you recognize that even though you have a current salary of “x” dollars, it is not in your control if that will continue, so how can you commit to payments in the future? No matter how good a moneymaker you think you are, Hashem is ultimately in charge of how much money you make. (I’m not saying that is correct, I’m just trying to logically follow your train of thought.)
From a mussar perspective it would seem lack of bitachon is more associated with having plenty and feeling that it is to your credit (“v’ram livavecha veshachachta as Hashem”), rather than not believing Hashem can give you more.
correction — I truly hope you find some menuchas hanefesh soon. Although this doesn’t directly address your question, it is very important when you are in an emotionally distressed time not to forget about you physical needs. Make sure you are eating properly and sleeping properly, even though you likely don’t feel like doing either. Go through the motions of functioning normally as best as you can. If you can exercise as well that is also great. Emotional pain is much harder to cope with when your body is physically drained as well.
A beautiful book with a large range of ideas on coping with nisyanos is “Facing Adversity with Faith” by M.L. Kramer published by Feldheim. It is basically the “chizuk diary” kept by the author as she struggled with progressively worse stages of MS. Although her nisayon stemmed from a physical condition, her ideas are applicable to all kinds of nisayonos, and are so varied that you can probably find some tools and ideas you can relate to. She tells over stories she heard, vorts, inspirational quotes, mental imaging techniques, etc..
And as everyone already said — find yourself a mentor/ friend/ support group — you don’t have to do this by yourself!
real-brisker — There is nothing in bitachon that I know of that says Hashem will give you enough money to buy whatever you want whenever you want it. In fact Bitachon davka means that you trust that Hashem knows what He is doing and will give you what is right for you — but not necessarily what you think you need, and certainly not everything you want. So to spend money without cheshbon does not seem to connect to bitachon in any way in my mind — if anything Bitachon would seem to imply that if Hashem hasn’t given me the money for a specific item, obviously I am not intended to have it.
The only thing I can see as possibly fitting into a bitachon issue is how far ahead you are planning, and your attitude with regard to that planning. Meaning I can perhaps hear that planning too long term in the future may reflect a lack of bitachon in the fact that Hashem can turn things about at any moment of time, and we should not think that our planning is what ensures a financially secure future. So perhaps someone on a very high level of bitachon who therefore requires less hishtadlus may be exempt from the hishtadlus of saving long term (consult with your Rav if you think that you are on that madreiga), but that is a completely different concept then just spending money and assuming Hashem will give you it because you think you “need” it.
Some more ideas:
Pick one zemer from the zemiros of each meal and sing that same zemer with your kids every week. That way it’s easier for them to learn it then if it’s a different song each week, and they don’t get bored like they would if you try to get them to sing a whole bunch of zemiros in Hebrew. (We do this even with my slightly older kids, and it works well.)
Ask questions about topics they have learned about in school — Parsha, upcoming holidays, etc., and give out small treats (like chocolate chips) for each answer.
Let them bring the projects they made during the week to the table and explain them, or give each child a chance to say something exciting that happened to them that week.
Aries — “Who know one?” is a lot of of fun to sing, as are all the rest of the Uncle Moishy songs, especially the earlier ones.
PBA — I better understand your comment now that I see how you understood the word “entertain.” I did not get the impression that “entertain” meant “get them to stop screaming”. I understood the question as to how to involve and excite your kids during the meal. I personally think this is a great question that more parents should be asking. It bothers me when the bulk of a Shabbos meal is geared only to adults, so that the kids can only last a few minutes. I firmly believe that a Shabbos meal can be structured in a way that even young kids can participate for more than a few minutes (although I agree that 20 minutes for a preschooler is probably the max, not counting eating time.) Why is your approach to “forget entertainment”? What is wrong with coming up with entertaining and meaningful activities such as stories and songs as described by the OP?
I remember a young family I used to eat meals by when I was in seminary who had a ton of guests, and their policy was they only had guests one meal each Shabbos (barring emergencies), and the other meal they kept family only so they could gear the meal towards their young kids. Personally I think that is a beautiful concept.
I don’t get all the comments against making kids sit “so long”. Shmeril did not give any time frame — maybe his kids are at the table for 5 minutes and he wants to make the most of that time. Even very young kids will enjoy a few minutes of hearing a story from their parents or singing the songs they learned it school — the Shabbos table doesn’t have to be only for adults! (Obviously it is never good chinuch to expect your kids to behave in a developmentally inappropriate way — but it is possible to make at least some of the seudah geared to the kids, and then let them go play while you do the “adult” diverei torah and conversation.)
shmeril — For English Parsha songs the golden classics are the 613 Torah Avenue series. You can get them in any Judaica store in CD, and some of the volumes are also made into videos. There is a tape for each Sefer of Chumash, with a song for each Parsha (and some cutesy dialog in between). The songs are great for 4 and 5 years olds (may be a bit complex for a 3 year old). You can also ask any preschool morah for song ideas.
The Little Medrash Says is for older kids (more like 8 — 12 year olds), but they have a series called “My First Parsha Reader” which would probably be appropriate/
Most people I know who followed the type of path you described greatly regret their early indiscretions. They feel the things they did/ saw/ experienced still come back to haunt them in many subtle ways. Additionally that “fun” that they had was really not so fun! I once heard a beautiful mashal. If you see a fish in a fish bowl swimming around he looks rather bored — opening and closing his mouth and drifting along. If you want to see a fish really having a “good time”, take him OUT of the water. He will begin to dance and twirl and party! But the knowledgeable observer knows that the dancing and twirling are a desperate attempt to breathe when removed from his source of oxygen, and the placid fish in the bowl has everything he needs. Similarly often people who seem like they are having a great time are desperately searching for something to bring them satisfaction, acceptance and happiness. I have often heard from baalei teshuva who comment that many FFB’s feel like you do — if only they understood what they are NOT missing, they wouldn’t want it so badly.
yichusdik — “My question was and is about the havoh aminoh of those who say that a hechsher should be about the animal, food, shechita, preparation only, and not about other elements which obviously mean a great deal to R’ Finkel.”
The hechsher still is about the animal, food, shechita, etc. — except they won’t give it if they feel you are a “bad neighbor.” That is different then actively giving a hechsher based on other criteria.
Health — I LOVE your idea of similar measures being taken against stores selling cigarettes.
Bezalel — The fact is that the word “hechsher” has always been associated with kashrus, so calling their mark a “hechsher” is in some way redefining kashrus. Certainly many less knowledgeable Jews will assume that the hechsher involves kosher. Whether they are “trying” to do so or not I don’t know, but it seems to me they are.
I absolutely agree with your point that they are trying to repackage western values as Jewish values. In fact there already exist numerous types of certification in the non-Jewish world dealing with these types of issues (the “fair trade” label for example). Why do they need to call this a “hechsher” and promote it as davka a Jewish issue?
I am not familiar with details of the chulent ban, but I think a very defining difference is that the “Hechsher Tzedek” does not involve itself in any Kashrus issues. Therefore what they are doing is coming up with an alternative definition of Kashrus (and a subjective one at that). In the chulent case it does not seem like there is any attempt to redefine kashrus, but rather the Eidah Chareidus (which is a community organization involved in numerous issue besides Kashrus) is refusing to do business with organizations that they feel are functioning in an inappropriate way. So if the “Hechsher Tzedek” crowd would be pushing legitimate hashgachos to boycott firms that do not meet their requirements in areas of “tzedek” that would be a similar type of idea, and the debate may be more about whether those requirements are legitimate. Instead they are attempting to push an entire separate “hechsher” that has nothing to do with Kashrus.
This is just my opinion of the top of my head, but it seems a clear distinction to me.
ItcheSrulik — Thanks for the correction — I believe I was correct that in the time period of Dovid/ Shlomo the language of the land was still Loshon Hakodesh, but I was certainly inaccurate when I said “all of Tanach” is written in Lashon Hakodesh. In my defense I never actually learned sefer Daniel — but what is the second book written in Aramaic?
Basket — I saw your most recent post after I posted. To clarify your questions regarding languages, all of Tanach was written in Lashon Hakodesh (classical Hebrew), and the Mishna was as well. Aramaic began to be used in Torah writings with the Talmud, during the end of the second Temple period and after the Roman exile. (Solomon build the first temple, 800 + years before that, and David his father obviously lived before him.)
I don’t have anything to add to the clear explanations offered above. However I do think it must be stressed that there are no different versions of Tanach — simply different versions of the translation. Anyone who has ever worked in translation knows that there is no “right” or “wrong” in many aspects of translation, particularly when dealing with language that is poetic or figurative. It is also virtually impossible to accurately translate anything, and certainly not Tanach with is layers of meaning. I don’t believe this is an issue of “if there is an alteration in the truth that is expressed in a bible from one to another”, but rather an alteration of the focus of the translation. The Orthodox sources tend to rely heavily on the Rabbinic interpretation even when attempting the literal translation of the words, while other sources may focus more on the technical grammatical constructs. Additionally some translations are not even translations from the Hebrew but rather translations from Greek or Latin translations — leaving you even more removed from the original source.
As has been mentioned, most serious Biblical students in the Orthodox world use the original Hebrew with commentators (often the Mikraos Gedolos), which will obviously get you the most accurate truth. This is obviously not an option for everyone, but it is important to realize the limitations of using translations altogether,and understand that many discrepancies you find may be simply unavoidable if you cannot access the original.
Remember the original translation of Tanach into Greek was considered a tragedy in Jewish history, and it was considered a miracle that the 70 scholars translating it separately actually came up with identical translations.
oomis — Obviously someone not exposed to this sensitivity would not necessarily think of it on their own, as today’s society is very “informal”. But even you who have no “conditioning” say that when you hear someone speaking this way it sounds “formal”. That is EXACTLY the point! If you look at my previous post I said that the point it to “avoid too much informality” — using the exact description that you used. Now you may agree or disagree on whether that degree of formality is necessary, but there is no denying that it helps keep thing a bit more formal. And too much informality with a member of the opposite gender who is not related to you is generally not viewed as a positive thing in Judaism.
BTW my recent post addressed rocker who is not discussing the example you gave, of a person speaking about their own spouse but rather about someone speaking to their spouse ABOUT a different woman. To speak about your own spouse is a geder for the person you are speaking to (why should my friend think about my husband by his name?), but to speak about a member of the opposite gender using their name I believe is a more appropriate time to consider a sensitivity like this. If a man is talking about a different woman using a first name, that definitely leads to a more informal and friendly mindset towards her.
rocker — I don’t think this is an issue of “ok” or “not ok”. It is simply a sensitivity. Some people feel that this is one way of avoiding too much informality between men and women who are not related to each other. I feel it is even more of an issue when dealing with a spouse’s friend, as it is very possible you come in contact with them frequently and in friendly settings. By avoiding using the first name you remind yourself that your wife’s best friend is not your good friend — she is an unrelated female (or vice versa).
Just to make it clear — I don’t think there is anything “wrong” per se — it is just a sensitivity that I believe many in the “yeshiva world” try to adhere to.
“is it safe to assume that the same is true when referring to a husband?”
Yes — it goes both ways. When talking to other women I will say “my husband” or “your husband” as appropriate, unless I am talking to a close family member, in which case I would use his first name. When speaking directly to my friend’s husbands I will use a title Mr./ Rabbi X — my husband addresses my friends as Mrs. X.
Thanks for your apology, always. I know that those who have never been in this situation do not always realize how hard it is. As for your issue with your daughter, I believe it was Mark Twain who is quoted as saying “When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years.” Just wait, soon your daughter, too, will soon look as you with a completely new perspective!
To the OP:
I do not believe there is such a thing as something “objectively” wrong or right morally. Things are wrong or right because Hashem says so, end of story. Even the examples that you brought of murder or robbery will depend very much on the society you live in, as yacr85 put so well. For example — if you believe robbery is morally wrong, are there ever any exceptions? What about a “Robin Hood”, who steals from unworthy rich people help the worthy poor – is that moral? What if one is stealing to save their life or the lives of loved ones? What if the stealing takes the form of slick negotiating skills in business, and you “earned” that money by being smarter than the next guy? What about those who view our entire tax system as a form of legalized stealing via redistribution of wealth? What if those same people then cheat on their taxes to protect what is “rightfully theirs” from government theft? My point is that it is very easy for people to come up with all sorts of justifications for even the most obviously “immoral” activities, and who are you to say that your perspective is more right? The same thing can be done with even something as extreme as murder. Many societies throughout history felt it was morally RIGHT to murder babies who were sickly or handicapped so as to avoid burdening society with their care (and even today many feel that way with regards to aborting a baby with developmental delays). What about in times of war when you are fighting to defend your country? What if you believe the defense of your country requires complete destruction of your enemy? Was using the a-bomb to end WWII morally right or morally wrong? What about the death penalty for criminals? What about Halachically sanctioned or required murder (goel hadam, ir hanidachus, milchemas amalek)?
Mishakav zachar is immoral for the goyim because Hashem said so, and the only way to have “objective” morality to is to look at how Hashem defines it. (I do believe the case against toevah marriage can be made from a logical perspective as well, but that is not the bottom line of what makes it right or wrong, as most “moral” questions can be argued logically in both directions!)
You sound like a wonderful mother, and I bet when your daughter IY”H has a baby of her own she’ll be singing a different tune!
However I am shocked by the overall gist of your post. I don’t know anyone (although I’m sure they do exist, infrequently) who “don’t hesitate or mind going back to work as early as 6 weeks postpartum”!! I cried hysterically the entire way to work when I returned at 6 weeks, not because I wanted to but because we needed the Parnassah. Many of my friends and co-workers did the same. I don’t know what type of job you had, but in the U.S. many employers do not pay any salary during maternity leave (none of mine ever did), so the only money I received after a baby was via disability insurance which only pays for 6 weeks (8 with a c-section). And a U.S. employer is not even obligated to hold your job for more than 12 weeks (under FMLA), so taking off a year may mean you have no job at the end of that year! Additionally my health insurance was through my employer, and I would have lost that as well if I took off more than 12 weeks.
The only thing keeping me going was the fact that I believed having a husband in learning was worth it. This was a decision I felt strongly about — but it certainly wasn’t easy. I’ve discussed many times with friends in similar situations that the true “mesiras nefesh” we have for learning has nothing to do with histapkus b’muat and less money — we were all fine with that. It was the heart-wrenching pain of leaving our young babies to come to work that was true “mesiras nefesh” — really giving up our very “nefesh” for the sake of what we believed. Maybe I just travel in different circles than you, but I find your implication that mothers who go back to work at 6 weeks don’t want to spend time with their babies to be very off target. (There were points when I had 3 or 4 co-workers with newborns pumping together, and that underlying current of being torn in half was ALWAYS there.)
s2021 — We know who the winner is — haven’t you seen the bumper sticker “whoever dies with the most toys wins”!
shein — Actually in the past they did publicize it. When the “Hearts of Gold” serial ended somewhat abruptly they ran a whole column discussing the various reactions pro and con they were getting, and why they decided to end it.
Riva’s last serial “Shattered Glass” changed direction very sharply in the middle (the main character’s emunah issues instead became OCD, and the story shifted to focus on the wife’s relationship with her mother-in-law). There, too, they wrote a follow up explaining that they made certain decisions and changes on the advice of Daas Torah.
At the end of this story there is a line at the bottom saying that they would like to hear people’s opinions on the story, so I am guessing they are planning to do a follow up article on this one as well.
Mother in Israel — Do you have the basic mandatory coverage or do you pay for an upgrade to one of the premium plans? As far as I know the basic coverage does not cover 70% of the fee to a private doctor, although many of the upgrades do.
As someone who just transitioned to the Israeli system from the U.S. one, I am not so happy with the system here. B”H I did not have any serious medical issues since I came, but a lot of the routine stuff is unbelievably complicated.
For example my son was having certain eye issue and I was told that the wait period for an appointment with a pediatric ophthalmology was over 3 months! This was not to see the “top” doctor — this was to get ANY appointment.
Similarly my baby hurt his foot and we were concerned about a broken toe. My pediatrician gave me a referral to Terem and an orthopedist. I called the Kuppah for an appointment with a pediatric orthopedist and was told that the pediatric orthopedist works for the Kuppah only one day a week, which happened to be that day. They would squeeze me in if I could get the x-ray and be an the office within the next 2 hours. After zooming to Terem and B”H not waiting too long, I rushed back with my x-rays (the Terem technician will only take the x-ray, not read it), and made it to the Kuppah. I got into the doctor who told me that since I was squeezed in he is only going to look at the results, but if my son needs treatment I would have to go to the hospital ER, as he will not treat him. (BTW, here in Beit Shemesh there is no hospital, so it would mean traveling to either Yerushalayim or Tel Aviv!!) B”H my son did not need any treatment, but I never had experiences like these in the U.S.!
Additionally, my husband and son both take maintenance medications for two completely different conditions, and both of their medications were covered in the U.S. with just a nominal co-pay. Neither of their medications are available here in Israel. B”H my husband was able to switch to a medication available here that seems to be working for him, but the medication my son had to switch too is causing him many more significant side effects then the one he used to take.
And that is not even discussing the whole immunization issue, where you have to deal with a whole separate bureaucracy (the Tippat Chalav by us doesn’t even answer their phone — you have to go in person just to get an appointment!). And once the kids outgrow Tippat Chalav, well-care transitions to school nurses who service entire regions of schools. I don’t want to talk about the nightmare I am in the middle of right now with regard to my 2nd grader’s booster shots, but suffice it to say that as we have a simcha coming up in the U.S. I think I’m just going to go to my old pediatrician and pay him out of pocket to give my son his shots, as I don’t have the koach to start fighting the bureaucracy here. (He didn’t get his shots in school because they lost the records that I sent in THREE times, and found it after they were packing up the immunizations, so they decided not to bother unpacking it. . )
And don’t get me started on “histapchut layaled” and developmental delays, where the evaluation process alone can take 6 months, followed by an 8 month waiting period to begin therapy. . .
I was lucky in the U.S., as I had excellent insurance provided by my employer (I was a unionized employee working for the government 🙂 — NYC), so I am not intending to minimize the difficulties for people who don’t have coverage, etc. But good coverage in the U.S. definitely comes with significantly smoother medical care, less bureaucratic hurdles, easier access to doctors, and quicker treatment then the Kuppat Cholim system. (And I do pay to upgrade my coverage to the highest level provided by the Kuppah.)
Charlie — I was not addressing whether government rationing of health care is a good or bad thing; I just stated the fact that it is technically accurate to say that under socialized medicine the government will be the one determining if a person receives life saving treatment for the vast majority of people. (The exception obviously being those wealthy enough to pay for whatever treatment they desire.) And it is clear that the problem with most drugs that are deemed not cost effective is not that they are not effective, but they are too expensive. I am not taking a position on whether this is right or wrong, but it is a fact. (Private insurance companies are involved in the same type of medical rationing when they determine what is covered or not covered, which is part of the complaint people have against insurance companies, but that won’t change with the government in charge.)
My 4 year old knows that he can never ride his bike without a helmet. There are two reasons for this:
1) Even with training wheels a child can fall, or be involved in an accident. Why take any risk?
2)Chinuch! Do you tell your young children to make Brachos, not touch muktzeh, etc? Even though they have no chiyuv? I certainly do, with the intention of “training” them to be in the habit of doing things correctly. Assuming the younger kids are old enough to understand (and if they’re riding bikes with training wheels they probably are), don’t you want them to start getting the message that we only ride a bike with a helmet on?
As far as your older son, it’s already been said — any bike store should be able to attach a basket for a reasonable cost. Think of it as the same way you would spend some money for any other Mitzvah — the Mitzvah of remaining safe is also worth money. (And it probably costs less than matzos :)!)
zehavasdad — Special needs kids are a completely different situation, not only because the tuition expenses are so high. There are still unfortunately very few special needs programs in our communities compared to what is needed. Often the programs available in the public school system can address the special needs of the child in a significantly more appropriate way. I had a student once in a yeshiva program who was switched to a public school program by his parents after asking a sha’alah of a very chashuv posek. In their particular case they were told that the prerequisite to being a proper Jew is to be a proper person, and if the needs of this child was such that the only available program to meet his needs as a person was a public school program, it would be an appropriate choice. Many frum special needs kids in public schools are there due to a chinuch decision, not a financial one, and many parents have asked Daas Torah with regard to their particular situation. I have never heard anyone quote any Orthodox posek recommending to put a child in public school due to financial considerations.
zehava’s dad — What makes you think “Kupat Cholim seems to work nicely in Israel and the government does not tell you when to die”? Whether it works well or not is somewhat questionable (I was much happier with the system in the U.S.), but the second half of your statement is completely false. The standard “basket of services” (what procedures, etc. are or are not covered) are most certainly determined by the government via the Health Care law. If a procedure, medication, etc. is covered, you get it. If not you can pay for it privately or go without (and possibly die) unless you have private or upgraded insurance which covers more things. In that case, the insurance companies decide if you get the procedure or not.
Bottom line is that health care is limited, so it is always rationed in some way, either via the free market(i.e. if you can afford to purchase it), or via government policy. Even in socialized medicine systems like Israel, those who are rich have a better chance then those who are poor, as they can access healthcare in both ways — through the regular Kuppah, or by purchasing extras on the free market. If you tried to make that illegal you’d just open yourself up to a black market in health care, as there will always be providers willing to sell their services for the right amount of money.
Hope you don’t mind if I hijack a humorous thread with a serious comment. I heard this from Dr. Rona Novick, and it’s so true:
“If I child doesn’t read, we teach him to read.
If a child doesn’t do math, we teach him to do math.
If a child doesn’t tie his shoes, we teach him to tie his shoes.
If a child doesn’t behave — we punish him!”
If we truly want our kids to behave, we have to approach it like anything else they have trouble with and TEACH them how to behave, by giving clear instructions, opportunities for practice, and good examples.
Sorry for the rant!
shlishi — Absolutely children are “inevitably hurt when their mother is not home for them full-time.” But they are also “inevitably hurt” if the stress levels are through the roof and there are Shalom Bayis issue due to being unable to pay the bills. Every couple must make a chesbon as to which scenario is the most beneficial, and there are no simple answers.
Additionally, many people may feel that although there obviously are drawbacks to a mother working, there may be other benefits for the kids that make it worth it. My husband and I made a conscious decision that the advantages my kids would receive by living in a home where my husband was zoche to learn Torah full time would be more than the disadvantages of being with a babysitter for many hours a day as babies. Had I not been able to find a frum caring babysitter who I was comfortable with, or had my job required me to not be home when my older kids got home from school, would I have made that same decision? Possibly not. The point is there are many factors in the decision for a woman to go to work.
There are a lot of practical issues with sending a very young child to public school as well, such as Kashrus. But the main issue as many have said is that Jewish education is not about simply learning Torah with a tutor — it is an entire experience. The messages sent throughout the day in a Yeshiva are that our lives revolve around Torah and doing what Hashem wants, and preschool is the best place to introduce these lasting ideas. When a five year old learns parshat hashavuah and they make projects about Avraham Avinu’s hachnosos orchim, or Rivka Immeinu’s chessed, it becomes a part of them.
Additionally the social issue is a big one. You are put in a situation where either your child’s closest friends will be the goyim she spends her day with, or she must always feel like an outsider. Neither choice sounds like a good one in terms of giving your child a strong Jewish identity and pride. Additionally, half of the “education” our kids receive in school is from their peers, and as much as the krumkeit of the outside world is unfortunately seeping into our schools as well, there is no comparison even to public schools in “good” neighborhoods as far as what the kids are exposed to. I worked for many years in the NYC public school system in a very good district, and never failed to be shocked at what I heard.
miritcha — as someone already posted, if it is really a financial decision, let them contact Oorah.
cleverjewishpun — For the record I wouldn’t leave my kids with a not frum babysitter with non-Jewish kids on a regular basis either, so the argument that “it’s just babysitting” doesn’t change anything for me. The environment and messages a child receives when they’re young make a big difference.
charliehall — Maybe this family should home school their child completely, instead of just for Jewish studies. That would be a cheaper option that allows the mother to be home with her kids without risking putting young children into an environment that does not support Jewish values.
charlie hall — It is true that the law does not differentiate between civilians and the military with regards to espionage — obviously the Rosenbergs were sentenced within the general guidelines of the law. However until that point sentencing judges DID differentiate, and greatly, between civilians and the military, and the Rosenberg case was a clear departure from precedent, even if it was not illegal.
But that is not really the point I was making — my point was that the sentence in a case, although up to the discretion of the judge within the legal guidelines, is primarily determined based on what the conviction is. (Someone convicted of manslaughter will not get the same sentence as one convicted of first degree murder, even though they both killed someone!) None of the examples you brought were of people who received a similar conviction as Pollard. As I said in my above post, Pollard’s conviction was for “passing classified information to an ally without the intent to harm the U.S.” There have been over 20 similar convictions in recent history, for countries including Saudi Arabia, China (for some reason considered an ally as far as the espionage act goes!), Great Britain, Liberia, South Korea, South Africa, Greece and many South American countries. No one ever received life in prison, and the next closest sentence is Lalas, as I mentioned above, who received 14 years despite having also broke his plea deal. So your reasoning that his disproportionate sentence is because he broke his plea deal is hard to believe. (And yes, I believe most judges would admit there is a difference between someone who breaks the plea deal by not giving over all of the information they were supposed to give (like Lalas), and someone who breaks a PR part of the deal, but even without that argument the Lalas case is a strong counter point.)
The examples you brought of the Walkers and Whitworth were of people who were convicted of espionage itself, as the Soviet Union between 1968 and 1985 (the years Walker ran his ring) was NOT legally considered an ally (this was the height of the Cold War!) There are many other outside factors that explain why these comparisons are invalid (Walker ran his ring for 18 years, and his plea bargain specifically did not request leniency for himself — he made a deal on behalf of his son, who received a sentence of 25 years of which he served 15. Whitworth did not enter into a plea deal at all), but they are not really necessary, as the contention of Polllard’s supporters that “nobody ever received such a harsh sentence for spying for an ally” is completely accurate. The examples you brought were of individuals convicted of spying for “unfriendly countries”, and therefore irrelevant to the above statement you are trying to disprove. (Although I don’t think any of the examples except the Rosenbergs received the conviction of “in times of war”, which is much more severe. I’m not sure about this particular point however.)
Again — Pollard is obviously guilty, as was Julius Rosenberg, and very possibly Ethel as well. The question is just one of fairness in sentencing, compared to what usually happens.
Also I strongly disagree with Health’s position that these individual cases mean the U.S. system is consistently anti-Semetic. However that doesn’t mean that any individual case is not (Health, your personal case may very well have been, I’m not addressing that). My personal opinion is that the Pollard case in particular is not so much an issue of anti-Semitism as much as a political game with Israel, but that’s a different story!
Charliehall — I strongly agree with your overall assertion that the U.S. has treated more Jews fairly then any other country in the world. I am shocked that anyone can say otherwise. The system isn’t perfect — nothing is — but it is head and shoulders above anything else!
However, as far as your discussion of the Pollard case, your comparison to the Rosenbergs is wrong. The Rosenbergs were convicted of “conspiracy to commit espionage during a time of war.” That conviction comes with much harsher penalties than Pollard’s conviction (via the plead deal) of “one count of passing classified information to an ally without the intent to harm the U.S.” (Ally here is used in terms of its application in the espionage act under which he was convicted, not in terms of any military or political significance.) A similarity between the cases does exist in that the Rosenbergs were the first civilians in U.S. history to receive the death penalty for espionage (according to many historians wrongfully so), and Pollard was the first to receive significant jail time for his category of conviction. The next closest sentence, of Steven Lalas, was for 14 years. Lalas was convicted of spying for Greece, including outing numerous CIA agents there and putting their lives at risk. Additionally he violated many of the terms of his plea bargain (unlike Pollard who kept all the terms except for one — the gag order). Nevertheless his total sentence was for 14 year — much less than Pollard has already served. The median sentence for this conviction is 2 to 4 years! Even many convicted of spying for enemy countries (the Soviet Union, Cuba, Iran, East Germany) received less than 10 years. And the notorious Ames, who was convicted of treason and responsible for the DEATH of at least 11 U.S. agents received the same sentence (life in prison), but under much better terms (for example no time in the harsh “K” unit at FCI Marion where Pollard spent 7 years in solitary confinement!).
Pollard was not innocent — but he got far more than he deserved, by any objective legal standard, even taking into consideration his violation of the gag order.
boredinoffice — As has been mentioned on many other tznius threads, obviously for those who “want” to stare, there’s nothing to be done. However it is quite normal that if someone is wearing a solid shirt with one design on it, your eyes will automatically be drawn to the design. This is true even if you are not particularly interested in what the logo is. By placing it on the chest, it is causing many people who are just casually looking at you to find their eyes drawn to that part of the anatomy. As most people do not continue to “stare”, this is not a big issue. But it s not crazy to consider it a small issue, and as the downside in making a change is not much, why not?
IMO, name tags are much worse, as the point is people do specifically look at them, often repeatedly to remind them of your name.
pba — Actually, it’s funny you mentioned that. When I used to go to meetings or training where we wore name tags I used to put my name tag on the lower corner of my shirt, or if we would be sitting most of the time and it wouldn’t be visible there I would put it higher up on my shoulder. I always felt very uncomfortable, especially in mixed crowds, with a name tag in the usual place.
When I was in high school our logo was on the collar of our uniform blouse. The uniform sweatshirt for a number of years had the logo on the chest, and this issue was raised (see, you’re not the only one!), and they moved the logo to the bottom corner of the sweatshirt as a result.
It wasn’t a “big deal” — the idea was that why should they not put it in a location that was a little bit more appropriate. I don’t get all the posters getting upset over this. Why would it bother anyone if a school put their logo someplace else, or if someone wants to raise a subtle point with regard to tznius (after all she did say NOT a crisis!).
B’shah tovah!
You sound very normal, and as a mamin says, you need to figure out a way to get some sleep — it makes a big difference.
Also, find ways to “escape” and relax, even if it means taking a slightly longer than usual shower and breathing slowly, or going for a short walk at night when it’s quite.
It always helped me to have friends to kvetch to who knew what I was feeling — but maybe that’s just cause I’m a kvetch!
A friend of mine once said “the purpose of the ninth month is to make you want to give birth!” — so true! Just remember gam zeh yaavar.
Herbal supplements may be helpful but NEVER take any medication (yes, herbal medications also affect your body chemically) without running it by your doctor first to make sure it’s ok. There are actually many herbal supplements that are NOT safe for pregnancy (although many are).
Good luck!
I don’t think it’s at all crazy to start school at your age. Your maturity and life experience will probably be a big asset in a field like social work.
However, I think the bigger question is what stage of life are you at. Some questions to think about: You mention you are a mother of 4 — how old is your youngest child? Will it be logistically possible for you to work out child care, etc., not just for the hours that you are actually at school, but also for the time you will need to put into school work? Will this fit in to your other roles at this point, as a mother, wife, etc.? So you currently work, and if so can you manage to give up your salary at this point until you finish school, or do you know of any programs that you can go to that would allow you to keep your job (and is it feasible to be in school, have a job, and run your home)?
All of these types of questions can be dealt with, but it’s important to keep in mind that going back to school at a point in your life when you have more responsibilities then the typical student may require some more preparation on your part. Sometimes it is easier to wait until your children are a little older, even if it means that you will be a bit older as well.
Whatever your decision, Hatzlacha Rabbah!
A “pilegesh” or “concubine” was a “wife” who did not have a kesubah (and the rights associated with it.) However I do not remember any source saying that Bilhah and Zilpah were pilagshot — do you have a source for this? There obviously was a difference in their status, as HaLeivi pointed out, in terms of their roles as “imahos”.
Lil B — You ask some interesting questions, and the best way to get a real feel for life here is to talk to lots of people you know who have made the move. As far as my experiences go, I’ll try to address some of your questions:
1) Missing family and friends is to me by far the hardest part of moving here. The people who I’ve spoken to who have been here longer than us also say that is one thing that just doesn’t go away — particularly at times of simchos (when you miss simchos in the U.S. and when you make your own simchos and have much fewer family members). I just keep reminding myself of the tremendous zchus I have to actually be living here, when so many great gedolim throughout the years tried so hard to get here and didn’t. It doesn’t make it hurt less, put it helps me keep my perspective!
2) As far as finding the time for mekomos kedoshim, in a sense you are right. When you live here you need to deal with all the day to day life, and it’s not like when you come visit and can spend the entire time “chaping” mekomos kedoshim. However if you make it a priority it certainly can happen. We live in Beit Shemesh, so a trip to the Kosel is even more difficult then from Yerushalayim. After our first few months here we realized that we needed to “schedule” it in or we would never end up going, so we decided to make a point of trying to go every Rosh Chodesh. Either we hire a babysitter in the evening and go ourselves, or we take off the afternoon (the kids have half day of school anyway on Rosh Chodesh) and go as a family. The point is that of course a person must make the effort, but in NY even all the effort in the world wouldn’t find us hopping on a bus or driving a car to the Kosel!
3) Financially salaries are much lower here, although if both you and your husband work there is no reason why you shouldn’t be able to do fine — although in general the standard of living here is much less. That is not necessarily a bad thing — there’s a lot less pressure to “keep up”. Costs are much higher here for almost everything, especially anything considered “luxury”, but most things are available for a price. So if it’s a few particular items that you really miss (my husband can’t stand the Israeli mustard, so we buy the American stuff), it may be worth the “splurge”.
But as far as your broader question, in a certain sense yes, “it’s just like living anywhere else”, because you still have to deal with jobs, schools, shopping, laundry, etc. But when you stop and focus on the details, it’s not the same. The very fact that the focus here is so much less materialistic makes you “suffer” much less from a materialistic perspective. Instead of feeling that you constantly need to work more and more to have “enough” money, you realize that maybe “enough” has a different meaning, and your life becomes that much easier. Additionally you are living in a society that when all is said and done is a society of Jews. The “holidays” are OUR holidays, the calendar is OUR calendar, the taxi driver and the customer service rep at the electric company are both fellow Jews. I recently bought a new frying pan and saw it was made in China. I wasn’t sure if it was produced by a Jewish company or just imported, so I called the customer service number on the package. When I got through I started trying to explain my question (in my less than perfect Hebrew), and the woman cut me off “are you asking about if it needs ‘tevilah’?” Well, I got my answer, and another reminder as to why life here is not “the same”.
And of course, the bottom line is that it is a mitzva to be here! Yes there are valid heteirim to stay in America, and everyone has their own shailah, but it certainly is a huge factor!