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Iced, both things, non-males driving and sitting in the front, are pirtzos of tznius whether your Chassidishe or not.
Health, the achronim assur all kinds of talking with the other gender even without yichud. Also, with some kinds of therapy there is negiya.
A person going to a therapist is obviously having tzures and that’s precisely the wrong time to be meikel about mingling, tznius and yichud.
Stick to what’s approved to say by rabonim and shadchanim.
Totally assur. A male can not even talk to a non-male receptionist.
Science, fossils, “dinosaurs” etc. are the modern equivalent of nevi sheker, sent by Hashem to test our faith. Hashem will explain these hoaxes in His good time.
If it’s M, it ain’t O. If it’s U, it ain’t Y. If it ain’t D, it’s OTD.
The middah to worry about with an overweight person is gezel by taking more out of the world than one needs. I use the thought of it to control my weight and it (usually) works.
See Da’as Zkeinim on that Rashi. It refers to places of mischakim. Tradition and sources since the Greeks connect this with sports too.
When did it become ok for a teacher or rabbi to have a cell number?
MusicMan, Yair Cohen and Meir Ben Shachar have big zchus but think of the learning that was lost by their being in the kochi veotzem yadi army to begin with. As for bein hazmanim, it has the force of tradition and you can’t calculate the gain of suspending a tradition against the loss. And the “religious” businessman made his own judgment call on the basis of ed mi-pi ed and ran to Mishpacha with it. That’s not the way of a religious person.
Concerned, I’m not being sarcastic. ClassicalMusic feels deeply betrayed: “It threw me for a loop. I’m deeply uncomfortable with it, to the point it’s pretty much a no-no in my life.” Then there’s the betrayal of community values. The puzzling thing is how matters got so far before this came out.
The person has Facebook even after the asifa? Drop “them” fast.
“Laughing is good,” it has nothing to do with my comment. We all use the word “shidduch,” meaning matching as opposed to mismatching. Just as we check out the madreiga of the yungerleit to make a good match, we do it with the families too. The reason why a child went OTD r”l hardly matters, let alone trying to figure out who “caused” it. The mere fact that it happened lowers the madreiga of everyone in the home because of things that were said and done in the home. The problem isn’t so far from that of BTs, and here everyone agrees that they should be matched with their own.
Far east, mingling itself is assur in many cases and strongly discouraged or limited in others. Where spiritual danger is involved, the main requirement is to avoid it, not to seek it out in order to create opportunities for “learning” or “kiddush Hashem.”
Josh31, yes, there is a Torah mandated obligation to support one’s family. There is also a Torah mandated obligation to learn. Our rabbonim guided us in how to do both: via our parents’ obligation to support Torah. Not me, but Torah. Some of us can’t represent Torah properly and others have parents who cannot meet their obligation (I don’t speak of those who refuse to meet it, they have to answer to Hashem). Then the avreich may have to go to work, all of which under guidance from da’as Torah.
True Jewish marriages are between families. Tainted families like these should marry with each other only.
MorahRach and others, this thread started about a child who ate treif at a family simcha. We’re not talking about relatives who, say, accept a weak hechsher but of people who are not on the program at all. If they weren’t family, we’d never be in contact with them. As for kiruv, that’s for professionals, not family simchas.
rsrh, no denigration intended. Indeed, the world outside the beis medresh is where we apply halacha. But the person I was responding to twisted things in an upside-down New Age direction: he said that the goal is to “know ourselves,” that we should do this by mingling with goyim on the job, and that this is “chinuch.” By that logic, we don’t really know kosher food until we eat a rabbit, we don’t really know shmiras Shabbos until we do chillul Shabbos, etc., all of which being “chinuch.” “Ibmzr” feels that his place is in learning and is aghast about being forced out, and as one who was also forced out I refuse to join with anyone who makes light of it.
The family that matters should be the one we want our child to marry into later on. When shidduch season begins, being in touch with non-frum relatives counts badly against the prospective chosson or kallah, for exactly the reason that was proven here. In a nutshell, if they’re not frum, they’re not family.
far east and rsrh, we have to be careful not to fall victim to gobbledygook just because it’s nicely worded. Naftush ballooned the workplace into an “applied” yeshiva, defined “hinuch” in a way that qualifies everyone automatically as a 24/7 mechanech, called mingling with goyim a great way to get to know yourself, etc. That’s not Yiddishkeit, that’s the road out of Yiddishkeit r”l. Yiddishkeit is about serving Hashem, not running a self-discovery seminar. Somehow I think Harav Hirsch would agree.
Naftush’s hashkafa is quoted more or less directly from one of the reform platforms. That says it all.
Sam2, saying Hallel on their holidays isn’t a halachic detail, it’s a statement of hashkafa. Packaged with that hashkafa, according to most who hold by it, is treatment of other “details” like shmitta, eruvin, kashrus, tznius, etc., that is meikel and against Daas Torah of the Gedolim. Even there, I only said that the matter should be looked into before the shidduch.
PlonyYid says, “I pray for him and his wife and kinder . . . and that another Yiddishe mishpacha does not break up.” I hope you’re not giving them all the same prayer. He needs a prayer for tshuva, they need a prayer to recover from the gneivas daas and ogmas nefesh that he committed against them. As for another Yiddishe mishpacha breaking up, the Yiddishe part of it has already broken up.
Ah, yes. You forgot to give the historical background: a few months ago I said that some people do more research before choosing a washing machine than before choosing a spouse. The example of saying Hallel on their holidays r”l is a case in point. Does anyone here think a shidduch should be redt before looking into something like that?
What am I making up? You have a line-up of Gedolim who plead, pasken, recommend, whatever, against unfiltered internet, explaining in detail why, and then a shul should let someone with unfiltered internet daven at the amud? Isn’t it plain common sense to choose someone else who’s more careful about his personal life and more respectful of the Gedolim?
OneOfMany, the dictionary you’re using is even more fascinating. How did it take you from hashkafa to dishwasher?
Yichusdik, I argued a narrow point: a person who defies the consensus among the Gedolim shouldn’t be shaliach tzibur. If he paskened on his own what order the davening should follow, no tzibur would have him as their shaliach. If he paskened on his own that electricity isn’t fire, no tzibur would have him as their shaliach. After the asifa, the same should apply to someone who has unfiltered internet.
Interjection, “details like hallel yom haatzmaut and the like” aren’t extraneous. They determine where we are on hashkafa, which in turn has much to do with where we are on halacha.
We serve one G-d and follow one Torah. Our goal is to get back to Matan Torah or chanukas Beis Hamikdash, when we were all one and there was no machloches. We do everything we can to keep foreign influences out. This gives an advantage to conformity. Also, according to our recent history, non-conformity is a slippery slope that leads to less Yiddishkeit, more assimilation and intermarriage r”l, etc.
The boy may make a kiddush Hashem against all odds, but his parents had no business allowing it in the first place. It’s like the basketball players in Texas a little while ago: allowing kids into a treif environment and then praising them for the kiddush Hashem that they’re doing there…
Mewho, a shul does have the right to congregate around shared values, including, gasp, the value shared by the Gedolim of assuring unfiltered internet. It is not fanaticism to expect a shaliach tzibur to share the values of the tzibur and its leaders.
Yichusdik, that was an eloquent post with lots of kiruv values but the only issue here is whether someone who has unfiltered internet can be shaliach tzibur…
After the recent psak, someone with unfiltered internet should not be allowed into a shul, let alone be shaliach tzibur, if only for defying the Gedolim.
Middle Path says: “I’m with oomis, instead of spending so much time with resumes, people can just meet and see for themselves if they’re a good match.” R’l! First, “just meeting” is the way of animals and goyim. Animals are okay with it but the goyim have used it to turn their society into a wasteland, Hashem spare us. Second, carefully researched shidduchim are as old as the Avos, do our children have better judgment “just meeting” than Avrohom Avinu did? Third, we parents are on the hook to support our daughters’ families. This makes us a party to whatever happens, and “just meeting” may saddle us (not just our daughters) with the wrong type.
Commenters are confusing a kesubah between chassan and kallah with a financial commitment by the kallah’s family. Bitter experience shows that before a girl goes on the market, her family should commit to a beis din, not to the other family, on what they owe. That way, shidduchim or (r”l) marriages won’t be broken up over support issues and the boy can give the kesubah the respect it deserves.
Here is how I disagree with the critics of my post. All of us here are hediyotos who cannot hand down psaks or make up dinim. But some of us turn statements that really are daas Torah into topics for hair splitting: how did he say it? who was with him on the stage when he said it? was it a psak or just a piece of advice? can I get around it by asking my rov? can I ignore it because I’m Sefardi (RZ, Chassidic, fill in the blank)? It seems like a reflexive pattern. In the debate over sefirah, for example, the ikar has become how to determine exactly what is and isn’t music. Remembering talmidei Rabbi Akiva is drowned out in the static. Here too the fact is that no rov, and kal vachomer no Gadol, wishes to see yidden going anywhere on the internet, filtered or not.
R. Gatesheader, by the egel, the slate wasn’t wiped totally clean. There was a stain that remained forever, even after tshuva, even after Moshe’s pleadings, and even Shevet Levi killed the 3000 direct perpetrators. So of course a bachur can be mekabel to stay off unfiltered internet and express regret for what he did. He should even do as the Rambam said and become fanatically anti-internet for a while. But the stain on his neshamah remains.
Health, the analogy doesn’t hold. He can be mekabel to wear a seatbelt, to give up smoking. etc. He can even be mekabel to stop defying the Gedolim. But he can’t be mekabel to un-see what he saw on the internet.
JBakly, it isn’t a made-up hashkafa for good girls to reject a shidduch with a boy who dirties his soul and (since the Asifa) defies the Gedolim. Pru urvu is a mitzvah, not an animal act done for lack of choice. Such a shidduch wouldn’t work anyway because good parents wouldn’t go into debt and give up retirement to support the Torah of a SIL like that.
People who follow the Olympics run into every problem in spectator sports: bittul zman, bittul Torah, moshav leitzim, etc., plus the fact that the Olympics descend from (not are) avodah zorah. Plus the irony of their origin being Greek.
“147”, I was making a narrow point. In the coverage of the asifa, the gedolim were reported as limiting the use of the internet to parnassa, and even then with big restrictions. From now on, boys who “surf” are not only unfit for shidduch because of what they probably saw but also for spiting the Gedolim. I didn’t “scold” the sites. Those who use them AFTER asking Torah and getting a heter, yesh al mi lismoch.
Chulent is spot on. Any level of involvement in this descendent of Greek avodah zorah is assur.
I consider my daughter reliable. She and others like her won’t accept a shidduch with a boy who uses the internet without a heter, even if it means staying single.
Medium size and 147, nothing said at the asifa (to my knowledge) allows use of the internet for shidduchim. For every yid who is redt a shidduch over these on line services, many more make themselves unfit for shidduchim by using the internet without a heter.
Sam2: Where bachurim can “talk” with eshes ish, to give one example, something really is untznius.
Zahavasdad: “Its not needed to search for a job, You are supposed to learn in Kollel.” So are you and so am I. For a start, I’m willing to unsubscribe. How is it done?
Research is the shadchen’s job, not the boy’s. There are things no boy can find out by himself: are there frumkeit issues away from the immediate family? Do they have problems with someone who is doing a degree? When you decide to return to learning, will they support? Etc. If you feel it necessary to do your own research, maybe it’s time to get your own shadchen.
kfb — Since when does the mitzvah of kechol asher yorucho apply only to 5 year olds? Even Eisov had a posek…
I am allowed to use only my employer’s computer and with my employer’s permission (he also has a filter), to do it only during breaks, to visit no sites that have anti-Torah tendencies, and to talk in my posts to the readers in general or to those who I know are men (not to women).
“Far east”: we do many things without asking whether we enjoy them. Hashem told us to learn and we are His servants. We can’t opt out by saying that it isn’t interesting or enjoyable, that the economy is bad, that we need to support our families, etc. It is for others to decide, we have too much negiya (conflict of interest).
KFB, you ask “What if their parents are broke or they don’t think they should support their kid who isn’t working?”
Those are two radically different things. Being “broke” is something for a beis din to determine, and if it’s so then the community needs to step in. “Not thinking that they should support their kid” is a huge misunderstanding. It’s Torah we are supposed to support, not a “kid who isn’t working.” The kid is presumably working hard, at Torah. If he isn’t, his rosh yeshiva needs to step in. Either way, no one (the medina, the parents) should be able to dump avreichim into the street just so.
Sam2, bachurim do not have that level of judgment. When they apply to yeshivos or kollelim, they don’t get to define their own madreiga, the rabonim do this. It should be the same kal va-chomer when bachurim say they wish to leave that world, for two reasons. First, so many of them suddenly *do* find the ability to learn, just not Torah. Second, Am Yisroel pays a price for this. Either way, I think the answer is not to make the girls back down on their requirements but to upgrade the boys.