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GAW: .
1)To see Aggada sources for this understanding of the mitzvah of talmud torah [to connect with God], check up my previous post (page 4) in which I quoted numerous sources.
2) The Gemorah states that when one passes away and ascends to heaven, the second question he is asked is “Kavata Itim L’Torah”; may I ask, if one can halachically fulfill mitzvah of talmud torah with Kriyas Shema, then why are they asking him this in heaven, doesn’t every Jew recite kriyas shema twice a day,(and for halacha questions he may ask his rabbi)? Also see Midrash in Mishlei which states one is obligated to learn in his lifetime and remember as much gemorah as he possibly can; how does this not contradict with the gemorah Nedarim?
The answer is that there is another primary obligation in the Torah: “V’Uhavta Es Hashem Elokecha” and the midrash asks, how can one make himself love God? Answers the midrash, through “V’hayu hadivorim Ha’ela Al Livuvecha”-by placing the Torah words on your heart, that is how you will naturally acquire love (and grow in love) for God. So it’s actually this Torah obligation which obligates us to learn diligently gemorah and acquire as much gemorah knowledge that we can possibly obtain in our lifetime, as stated in midrash mishlei.
3) Of course halachically one fulfills a mitzvah w/o having an actual mystical kavana while doing the mitzvah. However, one must still believe in the truth of the agadda in talmud which states that when one does a mitzvah he creates an angel. Our obligation to believe in this is obviously learned from the mitzvah of “Lidivka Boa” since one cannot possibly obtain defeykus w/o believing in the mystical aspect of the mitzvos. [There is a clear difference between actual mystical kavana and general belief in the mysticism nature of all mitzvos.]
If all people in MO community really believed in this spiritual nature of mitzvos, then they would be naturally “motivated” to do more mitzvos of bein adam l’makom, and they would also naturally have a desire to be “Mehader” in those mitzvos, [and not seek to be merely “Yotzei”].
GAW:
The fact is that Modern orthodox scholars have never delved into the meaning of the Agaddos in the Gemara, and they never conveyed to their students the significance and importance of this part of the Torah. Therefore, many of their followers didn’t feel that belief in these words of the sages is necessary for their Judaism. And in the same way they ignored the Tamudic discussions about science and nature (a different issue), they also ignored these spiritual discussions in the Talmud, w/o realizing that this knowledge is actually crucial to practicing real Judaism, and w/o it basically one is just doing mitzvos without its intended purpose.
To mention just a few examples: The Aggadah in the Gemora in numerous places stresses how learning Torah in depth is a primary obligation for a man in order for him to connect with God, and this has no relation to his obligation to acquire the know how to practice halachos properly. Still, Mr. Hall states in his above post [reflecting the opinion in his community]
Another example: The Talmud Aggadah states in numerous places that women who are married and support their husbands learning are considered as actually studying that Torah themselves, and they have equal share in that Torah which was learned; if all people in MO community really believed in the truth of these words of the sages [which is actually learned from pesukim]
[contrary to what was conveyed to us in aggadah and midrashim]?GAW: I didn’t mean Zohar in specific, I meant all Agadda of the Talmud and Midrashim compiled in the era of Tanaaim. And I’m only referring to Midrashim that discuss the spiritual world and the spiritual essence of the mitzvos. The Midrashim which discuss science and nature are not included in the “Nistar” of Torah and are therefore for a different discussion.
Moq: I don’t intend to be arrogant; I’m just really bothered by influences which the Modern Orthodox movement perpetrates. Actually in my above post I was referring solely to the Modern Orthodox movement not the Mizrachi movement, [they are based on very different philosophies]. Yes, I am open to public debate on this.
Charliehall: Your outlook of Judaism is clearly void of recognition of the spiritual components of the Torah and each of its mitzvos. This recognition is central to Judaism, and without believing it, one cannot be considered practicing authentic Judaism.
When reviewing our history, we can find similar precedents to the Mizrachi movement. First, it started with Korach questioning the validity of Moshe Rabbeinu’s interpretation of the Torah. Then, during Bais sheini the Tzidukim questioned the validity of the Talmudic sages’ [in their times] interpretation of the Torah Shba’al Peh. And now we have people in the Modern Era questioning the validity of the Midrashim/Zohar which interpret the spiritual meaning of Torah and its essence.
The Gemora states that the “Nistar”-hidden part of the Torah was given personally to Moshe on Har Sinai. How can one be selective and claim he believes only the “Nigla”-revealed part of the Torah was given on Har Sinai, but not the Nistar-midrashim/zohar?
Twisted: I really don’t mind being perceived funny. I am just stating the simple truth. If you would check up the sources I quoted inside, you would see that I was just literally translating the words of Midrashim and Zohar. I guess you just perceive the Chareidim as being backward and too spiritual oriented. However, the MO way of thinking and perception of Judaism seems likewise very shallow/superficial to us Chareidim.
BTW: Noach was also a laugh stock when he preached religion to the people of his generation; so was Moshe Rabbeinu when he approached Pharaoh and spoke to him in the name of God.
Charliehall: “I don’t know why it would be. There is a lot of other torah that can be learned: Chumash, Nach, Ketuvim, Machshevah, Midrash….all fulfill the mitzvah of talmud torah.”
This statement explains to me why you/your circles do not grasp the greatness of Rishonim/Talmidic sages; and have difficulty comprehending the “Pinimiyus”/spiritual essence of Judaism.
Let me explain, in the Chareidi outlook of Judaism, one of the most central and core beliefs are that the mitzvah of Talmud Torah is very different than all other mitzvah obligations. The Chareidim believe that Torah [Chumash and Talmud] is a spiritual entity which God has [Kaviyachol]imparted part of Himself into, thereby creating this spiritual entity of Torah.
One of the many sources for this belief [which include the Zohar and numerous midrashim] is from the Pasuk in Devorim: “V’atem H’dveikim B’Hashem Elokeichem Chaim Kulchem Hayom”-the midrash questions how can we actually connect with God and become eternal like Him, isn’t God an essence of fire like the posuk says “Eish Ochla Hu”? Answers the midrash, through connecting ourselves to the entity of Torah by learning and supporting its learning we are actually connecting with God Himself through this medium, as the Torah is also an essence of fire like God Himself [since God has imparted Himself into it Kaviyochol]as the Posuk says “Divarei K’eish Ni’um Hashem” and “Ner Mitzvah V’Torah Ohr”. So, by learning Torah (or supporting learning) we become actually part of this entity ourselves and then we are also transformed to become this essence of spiritual fire, as stated in Gemorah Chagiga that the Fire of Gehinnom cannot consume a Talmid Chochom since he is also an essence of fire through the Torah which became an actual part of him through him learning it. This is what the posuk means when it states “Chaim Kulchem Hayom”.
This understanding of Torah and its learning is also conveyed to us in the Zohar which states “God, the Torah, and Yisroel are One”-meaning one spiritual entity, which happens only through Jews actual studying the Torah and connecting with/becoming part of its spiritual entity. Similarly, the Midrash consistently refers to the Torah as an independent spiritual creation (not merely a compilation of laws), like the famous midrash which says that Torah was “created” before the world was created, and numerous other midrashim and Gemoras.
Therefore the Chareidim believe that the obligation to study Torah is in order for us to connect with God himself through this medium of Torah. Obviously, this is very different from other mitzvos, which the purpose of fulfilling them is merely to do God’s will, but not to actually connect with Him. It is for this very reason, why Charedim believe that the more sweat and toil that is exerted while learning, will greatly enhance and intensify this mitzvah of Talmud Torah, since by the act of toiling over the Gemora one connects himself even deeper to the entity of Torah and then God himself. [The midrash Mishlei says its an obligation to master the knowledge of all the written Gemorah of at least two sedarim, including many parts which are unrelated to halacha].
So therefore there is plenty reason for opting to learn Gemorah over Midrash/Chumash even if unrelated to halacha, since there is much more intense concentration needed to learn Gemoah, and hence more deeper connection to the Torah, which is the real purpose of this unique mitzvah. The Chareidim actually experience and feel this spiritual meaning and elevation when studying (or supporting Torah) as a result of their belief in it.
From understanding this concept, one may then come to realize the greatness of the Rishonim and previous Gedolim; who even after acquiring the knowledge to pasken Halachos, have then went on to continue to learn the whole Sha”s hundred of times in order for them to master literally seeing before their eyes the whole Talmud in their minds. Their understanding was, that the more one acquaints himself with the words of the Talmud, then the more he becomes a part of the Torah, and the more he becomes a living connection with God himself. [This is what the Gemorah means when it states “one cannot compare one who has learned Sha”s one hundred times, to one who has learned it one hundred and one times”; meaning that even though both may be similarly knowledgeable in paskening halachos, still one who has learned sha”s an extra time is more familiar/acquainted with the actual words of the talmud so therefore the Torah has been more imparted on him than it has been imparted on the other person.
Charliehall: I find real difficulty debating with you, since you consistently go around in circles. I would appreciate more clarification in your responses.
Is it a chiyuv to learn Gemorah w/o any relation to acquiring the know how to practice halachos properly; yes or no? If your answer is yes, can you explain what is the Torah reason behind this obligation? Please be concise and clear with your responses, thank you.
My Friend: I completely disagree with you, the essence of Modern Orthodoxy is not compromising with halacha; to the contrary, their whole Judaism is based solely on keeping halacha. The issue with Modern Orthodoxy is that their Judaism carries no spiritual significance; they do not comprehend nor delve into the “Pinimiyus”-Spiritual essence of the Torah. Therefore, they lack spiritual motivation, which is in fact the real essence and heart of Judaism.
Moq: I totally agree with you, I’m definitely ready to discuss openly the issues.
Charliehall: “Strictly speaking, there is no chiyuv even for *men* to learn gemara. It is just better to learn all the sources for the halachah if you want to be as careful as possible in mitzvot and that applies to men and women.”
[and hence connecting to God] with each word of Torah that they utter from their mouths while studying.
In addition one should be careful to draw a line between sincere criticism to feeling/expressing intolerance for other people. Just thought it might be appropriate to post this from a different CR thread:
Charliehall: I have heard that the reason why Rav Soloveichik advocated teaching women Gemora, was so they should experience themselves the intellectualism of the Torah. He felt this was necessary in order to counter the secular influences which portray the Torah as being old fashioned and not comparable to modern intellectualism.
However, in our times it seems that the girls who volunteer to engage in Talmudic study, are not studying out of desire to personally experience the intellectual beauty of the Torah. Rather their motivation seems to be socially driven, as they feel a need to demonstrate their equality to men, which was not at all the intention of Rav Soloveichik Zt”l. I sincerely believe that if these women would be given [by their community] a deeper understanding of the internal/spiritual beauty of the Torah, and the unique role that a woman was given in the Torah to fulfill, then they wouldn’t feel the need to learn Gemora at all.
Charliehall: Can you please bring Talmudic sources for this psak of Rav Soloveichik Zt”l that communities are obligated to teach women Gemora? [If you are allowed to question Rash”i’s opinion, we may definitely question Rav Soloveichik’s. Also, since the Rishonim have not stated such an obligation, shouldn’t this psak be considered another one of your examples of arguing with rishonim?]
Charliehall: we seem to be going around in circles; is it optional or obligatory? It’s either one or the other, [not that complicated], so please explain?
My Friend: SJS is right. Shulchan Aruch discusses a Father’s obligation to teach his children Torah; in other words, teaching a young child w/o his/her consents. However, a girl on her own may learn Torah Shbaal Peh and she receives schar as stated explicitly in the S”A at the beginning of that same se’if. According to your [mis]understanding, the S”A would be contradictory in the same se’if.
Do you not know that Rav Isser Zalmen Meltzer’s rebbitzin wrote the sefer Even Ha’azil for her husband?
Charliehall: I’m hardly misquoting: “And that is pretty irrelevant to torah study because women are obligated in all but about a dozen mitzvot from the torah. It is not an “optional mitzvah” for women to learn torah.”
If you do indeed agree that it’s optional, then may I ask why are the women in your neighborhood spending their precious time studying Gemora; in their intention to do God’s will, or is it merely to perpetuate their feminist agenda and show their independence from the Frum establishment? If the latter is correct, then their studying has no spiritual value and will never lead to having any spiritual meaning to them.
Charlie Hall: You state from Rav Soloveitchik Zt”l that he paskened that women have ‘chiyuv’ to actually study gemorah; are you implying that Jewish women over the past millennium have repeatedly transgressed this obligation by merely practicing halachos w/o actually studying them inside from their sources?
Also pretty interesting to me that you believe that following blindly a Rav’s instructions constitutes a Mitzvah never mind an obligation, especially when it runs counter to what it states in the Gemorah which I quoted above that women are NOT obligated to actually study gemorah in depth.
My Friend: Women are not prohibited from learning Gemorah, it’s not any different from Mitzvos Sh’zman Grama which women are not obligated in, but may nevertheless practice on their own will.
Charlie Hall: “And that is pretty irrelevant to torah study because women are obligated in all but about a dozen mitzvot from the torah. It is not an “optional mitzvah” for women to learn torah.”
Torah learning is one of the dozen mitzvos which a woman is not obligated in, as the Gemara learns from the posuk “Vishinantum L’banecha V’loa L’binosecha”. Of course women need to learn the practical halachos which are applicable to them in order for them to practice them properly; however, actual studying in depth is not an obligation for them.
Charlie Hall: the Gemora is referring to obligatory mitzvos not optional ones. Regarding optional mitzvos it may not be halachically permissive to practice if one’s intentions are “shloa lishma”.
Additionally, see what the Gemara says regarding one who learns with an intention of “Likanter”; it may very well be that sending feminist messages to the Klal, fits under the category of “Likanter”.
GAW: Learning Torah is an obligation for a man not a privilege. Obviously Chaza”l meant to explain why a women does not require Torah learning in order for them to reach perfection, and that is why the Torah has not obligated them to study Torah, as we learn from the posuk “Vishinantum L’banecha V’loa L’binosecha”.
Of course women may study as much Torah as they wish, the same way Rash”i’s daughters have studied. However, one may question what their true motives are when studying; is their sole purpose just to send a feminist message to the Frum world? Or is it their sincere desire for spiritual fulfillment that urges them to study Torah?
BTW: Are you a Gavra or a woman? If the former, then why do feel compelled to defend your opposite gender? If the latter, then you should be well aware that the Torah recognizes a women as having the same spiritual status as a man. And in many areas in halacha and agaddah it is the women rather then the man who is given unique status.
Twisted, My Friend: Why must Yidden fight with each other? This is the last thing what Hashem wants.
I think the Baal Eim Habanim Simacha was a very sincere/emesdika person; it was out of his genuine love for Erez Yisroel [and also his true love for other Yidden to give them new hope after the Holocaust], which might have caused him to err somewhat when searching for leniencies in halacha to allow Yidden to establish a state. Like it says in Pirkei Avos “Ahava Mekalkeles Hashura”.
Likewise, the Satmar Rav Zt”l, out of his real/deep concern to reestabish authentic Yiddishkeit after the War, he might have gone to extremes, (like with his verbal attacks on the State well after its establishment, such as stating that the victory of the six day war was the act of the “Sitra Achra”!) I think if the Rav Zt”l would see today how the Chareidim have reestablished themselves so successfully and securely in Israel; he would probably feel that now the time might be ripe to strike a conciliatory note to the secular establishment in Israel, that we are accepting of them (since dissolving the State is not an option anymore)and we are willing to live together in harmony.
I would also not be surprised if the Satmar Rav Zt”l and the Baal Eim Habanim Simacha are presently studying together Torah (hilchos EY) in Shamayim! Like the Gemara says “Es Vahav Bisofa”.
Theprof1: I wouldn’t either dare compare the Satmar rav zechuso yugain aleinu, to l’havdil Doeg Hadomi Harasha. The Rav was an “ish kodosh” who reestablished yiddishkeit amongst Hungarian Jewry in America. I just think that since in the Rav’s time there was real spiritual danger to Chareidi Jewry, therefore the Rav had to go to extremes, and his kanaus’dika shiddos were a natural outcome of the war he needed to wage against the Zionists in order to preserve Yiddishkeit. Anyways, yosher koach to Tam mahu omer for his unshakable emunas chachamim.
nw13: Thank you for agreeing with many of my other points. I did not mean to say that the Gedolim should have in the past established a Mi sheberach for Tzahal as an act of Hakaras hatov. What I mean to say, is that the secular Israelis perceive the Chareidi act of omitting the Mi Sheberach as an act of arrogance and lack of appreciation for of all what the state has done for them. Therefore, if we would like to send a conciliatory message to them, then the obvious way to do that would be by reciting publicly a Mi Sheberach for them, as that would be a sign that we are accepting them too.
MoGold: With all due respect to the heiliga Satmar Rav Zt”l; we must take into perspective what was going on 50 years ago in the times of the Rav zt”l. The secular Zionists were then trying their utmost to uproot the practice of Yiddishkeit in the state, since they didn’t want the chareidim to become a conflict to the interests of the state. Since the religious life of the Chareidim was B’sakana, the Satmar rav and other Gedolim saw it their duty to fight the secular Zionists using all their means. Many things the Satmar Rav Zt”l may have then said or done were in the category of “Sinah mekalkeles es hashura”, given the atmosphere of distrust and caution that existed between the chareidim and the secular establishment.
However, now 60 years later, the Israeli government has come to a realization that the Charidi population and way of life are here to stay permanently. Therefore, we cannot compare times, and what is needed now is to strike a conciliatory note, and accept our irreligious brethren in Israel for what they are, and be appreciative of their contribution to the physical aspect of Chareidi life in Israel.
Helpful: I don’t disagree with that, as I acknowledged myself in earlier posts on this thread. However, you are choosing to ignore all the good that has resulted on account of the State. Is it meaningless to you that millions of Jews have held back from intermarrying only on account of their identification with Judaism through the establishment of the State.
And, regardless of whether or not any bad has resulted through the State; YOU have a personal obligation of hakaras hatov for the Good that was done for you or your relatives who live in Israel, who are being provided daily with security and financial assistance.
My Friend: Thanks for answering my points. I had asked if you would like to be “mechadesh” an issur of expressing an indirect endorsement of the state, then you should do well with explaining how it’s permissive for Chareidi representatives to sit in the Keneset and for the chareidi public to take monetary assistance from the State institution?
I stated clearly that there may very well be a Torah and moral obligation to recite the Mi Sheberach on the grounds of the Chiyuv/Mitzvah of hakaras hatov; how do you see this relate to Mi Sheberach for Cuban communists rule?
The obligation of Hakaras Hatov is never measured by the amount given. Even the smallest amount of good done for someone obligates him to return hakaras hatov, as stated in the Gemara “one that opens a door for a fellow; his soul is obligated to him in return”. So your argument about how much the State has done for the chareidim with regard to security and financial assistance is baseless. (Additionally, your numbers and logic are way off.)
Your assumption that reciting the Mi Sheberach will have no effect on the Chareidi-Secular relationship, is also way off. The secular Israelis would like to see the Chareidim behave less arrogant and more appreciative for what is/was being done for them. How can you be assured that by sending a conciliatory message to our irreligious brethren it will have no effect at all? Isn’t one Jew who returns to the Torah worth a whole world?
Simcha613: I’m not well versed in Na”ch either, so I can’t say if the Kingdom of Malchus Yisroel was sanctioned by Hashem or not. However, definitely later during Bais Sheini in the times of the King Hurdus, Chaz”al were in alliance with the King and prayed for his welfare, even though his rule was not sanctioned by Hashem; as stated in the Gemara with the story of Buva Ben Buta who refused to curse the king even after he had killed many sages (a far cry from the democratic state of Israel!), and then the Chachamim advised him to rebuild the Bais Hamikdash.
Also during the times of Bar Kochba’s revolt, although the majority of the army and Bar Kochba himself were not religious, still the sages aligned themselves with them and prayed for their success, as mentioned in the Gemara about Rabbi Akiva and in the Midrash about Rabbi Eliezer Ben ? who actually was together with Bar Kochba during the siege, and prayed each day for the survival of the army and the Jews.
Hakatan: Our support through citing Mi Sheberach, in reality can hardly be considered support for the State at all, since the State of Israel will exist regardless of our symbolic and indirect endorsement of Her. Therefore your argument to consider the act of Mi Sheberach as being “Mesaya L’dvar Aveira” has hardly any substance.
And, From a Torah perspective, we probably have a moral obligation to express our hakaras hatov to the state through citing the Mi Sheberach. Have they not provided us with real security and financial assistance for the past half century? Were we not taught in the Torah that hakaras hatov is of the most primary moral obligations of a human being (Moshe Rabbeinu with regard to the earth and sea of Mitzrayim)? Where are those genuine human feelings within you? Have they become lost within your sea of hatred for the State?
Additionally, if it were actually assur to express publicly an indirect endorsement of the State, then it would definitely be also assur for the Chareidim to have representatives in the Israeli Cabinet, since this also constitutes an indirect endorsement of the State; especially with taking actual monetary assistance from the State’s treasury.
The real reason for your reluctance to cite the Mi Sheberach stems from your feelings of pride, and your unwillingness to publicly express what may be perceived as a concession to the State. Well, if you felt your moral obligation of hakaras hatov, then that should override your other feelings of hesitation to cite the Mi Sheberach. And trust me; if you and others would publicly cite the Mi Sheberach, it would come a long way with sending a conciliatory message to our irreligious brethren in Israel, and you never know how many more Jews would become closer to Yiddishkeit as a result of this.
Theprof1: Maybe you can explain to me your logic as well? Where did you get into your mind that Binyomin Zev are two separate names? Is it because they are spelled separately on paper? -hardly a reason to be reckoned with in halacha. Or is it because the two words originate from two separate people? -this doesn’t automatically give it a status of two separate names.
Says Who: Many times in the Torah and Na”ch the posuk may refer to someone in different places by different names, and then the Midrash will explain which name is his real one and which is only a nickname, and why the Posuk gave him/her that particular nickname. For example, Sara/Yiscah, Hagar/Ketura, Haman/Memuchan; the real name is Sara and her nickname given by the Torah was Yiskah for the reasons stated by Rash”i. I guess according to these midrashim, we would have to conclude that Yisro had one real name and the others were only nicknames.
Obviously when one names his child two worded names, his intention is that they both be considered his real name, and to make that possible we would have to halachically recognize both words as one long name, even though other people may have used each word separately on two different people.
Says Who: Since we don’t find in the Torah such a concept that one may have two separately recognized names, therefore the proof lies on the one who is being “mechadesh” that there does exist such status in halacha. “Hamotzei M’chaveiro alav Haraya”.
I don’t see why we should need proof to imply that two worded names are recognized as one long name in halacha, since this is consistent with the Torah concept of one name per one person; and that which the names are spelled separately is insignificant in halacha and can hardly be counted as proof.
Therefore, since we don’t have any halachic source which implies that one may have two separate halchically recognized names, then obviously the two worded names which you mentioned that you consider two separate names, are actually halachically recognized as one long name (with which he is recognized in Heaven), only that it might be spelled separately which has no significance in halacha.
Feif un, Sacrilege: There is no reason or source in the Torah which indicates that we should consider two worded names as two separate entities which would require two different pesukim for each name. Since a person has a right to name himself only one name, therefore we should conclude that two worded names is actually one long name which is only written separately for clarity purposes. If this logic is correct, then the correct posuk for two or three worded names would actually be the first letter of the first name and the last letter of the last name.
RSRH: I clearly refuted your points one by one. I will reiterate, recognizing a Jewish body of government which is unaffiliated with and does not represent any religious ideology cannot possibly be assur. All the government of Israel represents today, is a collective body which provides security and economic assistance for its religious and irreligious citizens, period. It should be no different then the army and government of Herod or Bar Kochba which the sages of Israel aligned with and prayed for their success and protection.
You continue to quote from Gedolim of the past who were opposed to Zionism and the establishment of the State. However, this is totally irrelevant to our discussion, since in the current situation in Israel there is absolutely no option of dissolving the State, as that would be suicidal and pikuach nefashos for all its citizens. Therefore we are probably mandated al pi halacha today to help ensure the State’s survival and existence.
RSRH: In the times of the Romans at the end of Bais sheini, the Jewish soldiers who provided security for the Land of Israel were actually not religious at all, and until R’ Yochanon Ben Zachai decided to surrender to the Romans, the “Perushim” worked together with the “Baryonim”, as described in Sefer Yosifun. Also, in the times of Hurdus and also Bar Kochba, the Jewish military and government was run by irreligious Jews, and still the Chachmei Yisroel davened for their success as discussed in the Gemara.
Mod 80: With all due respect, the Liberal representatives in the Israeli cabinet have no intention to enforce communist/atheist rule on the chareidim in Israel. They also share the democratic belief of religious freedom. They only insist that the body of government shouldn’t provide exclusive financial assistance to Avreichim, (and also that all citizens have a duty to serve some time in the army, albeit in separate units to accommodate their religious needs/sensitivities).
According to RSRH we should not either be advocating the use of government body to provide us with financial assistance, and/or to enforce religious ideals on our irreligious brethren in Israel, especially if it is assur to acknowledge the existence of Israeli government and its legitimacy. Shouldn’t that also be considered an indirect endorsement of the State?
RSRH: R’ Hirsch was referring to religious institutions in his times which were perpetuating anti-Torah values. However, the State of Israel presently doesn’t perpetuate any anti-Torah values; to the contrary, the State actually doesn’t interfere at all in the way of life of its citizens. The goals of the State are solely to provide security for its citizens, and to help them economically, so they may live secure and prosperous lives.
If you mean to argue that by davening publicly for the welfare of the soldiers and the protection of the State, we are indirectly hashkafically legitimizing the Zionist concept that Jews have a right to Statehood; then I hear your argument. However, one can still argue that since much spiritual good has resulted from its establishment, therefore our indirect endorsement can be perceived as an endorsement of its outcome rather than an endorsement of its actual establishment; much like the Posuk praises Yael for her deed with Sisra which the Gemara categorizes as an “Aveira L’shma”. Also, at this point if the State were dissolved, there will definitely be a matzav of Pikuach Nefesh, so there may very well be an obligation to help with preserving the security of the State and its current institution.
Additionally we cannot forget our personal and primary obligation of hakaros hatov to the State for providing us security for the past half century. Even Moshe rabbeinu who was commanded by Hashem to hit the sea/earth, felt that act would be considered acting against his moral obligation of hakaras hatov; how much more can we say about our moral duty of hakaras hatov to the State for providing us real security and monetary assistance for so many years. Definitely this primary obligation overrides any concerns of committing any aveira by indirectly endorsing the establishment of the State 60 years ago!
Ludwig: you do have valid points, however your attempt to portray the Democrats and their platform as tzaddikim is obviously far from the truth as other posters have pointed out.
The Torah hashkafa carries a mix of ideals from the Right and the Left. I think if we are going to try to align ourselves with any Non Jewish political ideology, then we do best with identifying with the Centrists or Independents. As you quoted from pirkei avot: Rabbi [Judah HaNassi] would say: Which is the right path for man to choose for himself? Whatever is harmonious for the one who does it, and harmonious for mankind. I think the Centrists platform fits that quote best.
My Friend: Please calm down. I agree with you that Halachically it was ‘assur’ to establish the State of Israel given the issur of “shalosh shevuos”. Additionally, it was also “hashkafically assur” for frum Jews at the time to become engaged in helping with the establishment of the State, since there were then strong secular and ideological influences which were potentially harmful to Frum Torah Jews.
However, one must agree that although the establishment of the State may have been assur, its outcome was definitely “Yad Hashem”, since the Tikkun that has resulted on account of its establishment, far outweighs the “Kilkul” that has resulted from it. Yes, we have raised the ire of the neighboring Arabs and many Jews have since been killed in Israeli wars/terrorist attacks; However on the other hand, millions of Jews out there (both in Israel and in America) have stayed/become identified with their Jewish heritage only on account of the establishment of the State of Israel. This identification was instrumental in preventing intermarriage on a huge scale. Also, it was definitely not possible for Israel to have been so victorious in its wars without Divine will and help. So therefore we have to conclude that even through an act of an aveira there has still been a guided hand of Hashem, much like the story of Yehuda and Tamar, in which Dovid Hamelech/Moshiach came out through a maaseh aveira (I’m not at all saying that the establishment of the state is beginning of the final redemption like yehuda and Tamar!).
Lastly, when the Gedolim referred to Zionists as “reshaim”, they were referring to the Secular Zionists who established the state, since at the time they were eager to make all Frum Jews secular in order that they shouldn’t become a conflict to the interests of the state. However, 60 years later in our day and age, Israelis have already accepted the fact that there will be a permanent Chareidi presence in Israel, and they have no intention anymore to make them secular. All the government of Israel wants today, is to integrate the chareidim into the workforce without them compromising their religion. This partial integration is both beneficial to the state of Israel and also likewise for many Chareidim t who can then be kovea itim for Torah learning while making a parnassa just like many do in America. I think the Gedolim of the previous generation would hardly have meant to call today’s secular Israelis “reshaim”.
So in conclusion, I don’t think secular Israelis/chayalim today (who haven’t actually established the state) should cha”v be termed in any way “reshaim”. And I think that they all deserve our sincere hakaras hatov for their act of protecting us in the current matzav, regardless of whether or not it would have been safer to live in Israel 100 years ago before the establishment of the state.
GAW: There is no halacha in Torah Sh’baal Peh which states that the act of attending College is ‘assur-prohibited’. If your Rebbi/Teacher/Parent encourages you to not attend college until after your marriage and strive to live a higher standard of Torah life and you choose to follow, then that is very commendable of you and you will earn more reward in shamayim for this; but please don’t state that attending college is ‘assur’.
On a different note, if one attends college and sets himself behavioral “gedarim”-red lines which he commits himself to never cross, then he will be able to preserve his yiddishkeit there and not fall prey to all the harmful influences he may encounter there.
Hashem’s Princess: If a couple met each other in college and then got married, there was definitely nothing ‘assur’ committed. Why is it halachaclly different than dating set up through a matchmaker? Do you think all shidduchim in Klal Yisroel throughout the generations have only happened through a matchmaker?
Wolfish Musings: This is a ridiculous, of course it was bashert/destined for you to marry your wife; still you may feel remorseful for improper contact you may have had prior to your marriage with her. If actually you didn’t behave at all improperly, then you have nothing to feel remorseful about, to the contrary, you actually have done a great mitzvah by engaging, dating, and then marrying your special wife!
Hashem’s Princess: I personally know many Frum couples who have met each other at college, and are now very stable in their level of frumkeit. I don’t think criticizing other people and judging their level of frumkeit is beneficial for one’s own ruchnius.
EDITED
Sjs: I’m hardly interested in knocking you, what I stated about hashkafic influences in ‘Some’ parts of MO world is actually reality (as poshuta yid is also in agreement with), no matter how much you would like to be in denial.
Getting back to the point, I don’t have any interest in knocking Non Jews either; I stated clearly that Non Jews might very well excel in Middos/Good at Bein Adam L’chaveiro, like the good examples of your Protestant friend (gossip, charitable, fine person), however it is almost impossible for them to reach feelings of spiritual elevation through their Faith alone, since Christianity lacks the core belief that doing good deeds and/or refraining from doing certain deeds creates angels that ascend to Heaven and bring upon an actual closeness to God himself. This belief conveyed to us throughout the Torah is the catalyst for us Frum Jews to create within ourselves (from our youth) a spiritual dimension, which gives us feelings of spiritual elevation and satisfaction throughout our lives when we do a mitzvah/refrain from doing an aveira.
Your post clearly leaves out any recognition of the spiritual feelings/satisfaction that all frum Jews feel to one extent or another. The truth is one’s FEELINGS not KNOWLEDGE are at the core for the motivation of all Frum Jews to Believe in Judaism and the Torah. For all those people that you know, who claim that their intellectual pursuit is what drives them OTD, I herby claim with all confidence, that the real reason for their confusion is actually the weakening of their spiritual motivation, caused by too much exposure to the secular world and harmful spiritual pitfalls that occurred to them thereafter (yes, segregation related!).
I do however agree with you that the chareidi world can use allot of perfection in the middos/bein adam l’chaveiro area. However, to disregard/negate the area of bein adam l’makom/spiritual elevated lifestyle that the Charedi world excel in, is simply a very biased and untruthful judgment.
Poshuta Yid: I agree with you that the Chareidi world can do better in college educating more segments of their population.
SJS: Sorry for getting you excited. I’m actually a realist, and my realization that Frum Jews live a more spiritually elevated lives than Non Jews, derives from an inner perception of my psyche, and from my natural/unbiased analysis of the psyche of the fellow Non Jews that surround me. Since you have difficulty in coming to the same realization as me, I postulate that this may be because you are lacking somewhat in your own emotional feelings of spiritual elevation/fulfillment. (This may be because of hashkafic/behavioral influences from Some MO circles which you identify with).
You must however agree with me, that Motivation for Frum Judaism is not generated solely from Faith. There has to be some real feelings/truth that Frum Jews feel/identify with, which is the cause for them to be deeply committed to their lifestyle despite the worldly influences.
And as far as our Faith is concerned, no logical person will say we need Proof of the Authentic of Judaism. If it cannot be Proven that there is definitely No God and/or that Torah was Definitely Not given on Har Sinai, then we all might as well stay with the Torah out of the fear/concern that Maybe it is all true/authentic. Especially since we all feel internally the physiological truth as an effect of our belief in the Torah.
And as far as OTD is concerned, I respectfully, disagree with you. OTD is hardly caused from intellectual reasons. OTD is almost always behavioral. Usually from the need to rebel on authority which the individual associates with the religion of his upbringing. And the forces of rebellion to secure their ego, overrides the inner desire within themselves to fulfill their natural desire for spiritual satisfaction.
Lastly, the issue being discussed on this thread is actually not OTD, but rather Motivation loss of Frum Jewish boys who do externally stay within the fold. And this phenomenon is usually caused by spiritual pitfalls experienced by the boys, which in turn caused them to become discouraged from their desire to fulfill their spiritual satisfaction needs; although they definitely still feel that there is something they are Missing; to the contrary, (that’s why they are depressed until they give up and adjust themselves to their failure
SjS: Yes, many Non Jews may live happily fulfilled lives as they derive fulfillment from choosing good over evil in the bein adam l’cheveiro/social part of their lives. However, aside from their belief in God, they hardly lead spiritual lives, and definitely don’t feel connection to God on a daily basis. This is because most Non Jews don’t have at all any concept of Good/Evil in the bein adam l’makom area of human life. And, even the religious Non jews who do believe/understand that certain acts are immoral, they still don’t believe that by the virtual act of refraining from certain acts, a person connects himself with God/gets rewarded in Heaven for it; so therefore they don’t derive any feelings of elevation from that act, which is the core of the motivation and feelings of spiritual fulfillment that drive us Frum Jews throughout our lives.
If you were a man, and if you would have a deeper understanding in Judaism; then Yes, you would understand very well that looking at immoral images and then acting upon them/doing a certain forbidden act, definitely exacts a toll on the individual’s motivation/yearning for spiritual fulfillment that us Frum Jews are accustomed to needinf to fulfill in our lives. I take it that you are a women, and that you don’t understand well the concept that Segregation stands at the core of psyche of a man feeling spiritual and connected to God!
aposhutayid: Of course each individual older girl on her own accord should have bitochon and do her own hishtadlus to find her zivug, however, as a ‘klal’ we must take on ourselves the responsibilty to be aware of the problem affecting the ‘klal’ and do the hishtadlus necessary so that the future crop of girls shouldn’t have to continue to face this serious problem. When we, as a community, see or even suspect a serious problem, we dare not ignore it on the grounds of emunah/bitochon, because that would border on the transgression of ‘lo taamod al dam rei’echa’.
apashutayid: “With comments such as this, is it any wonder we have a problem?”
You take issue with my open discussion of the pyschological reality of older boys and consider me defaming them, yet you have no problem with defaming the hundreds of older girls who are out there waiting desperately to get a ‘yes’ from a regular normal older guy, by stating your unfounded/rediculous judgment on them that they are all picky and holding out for a better quality boy!
Yes, there are some girls who are/once were picky about the caliber of the boy they were searching for as I stated above, however, the majority of these hundreds of girls were just looking for a boy from a similar family background like their own, and the obvious reason we should attribute for the very high number of these girls being leftover in parallel to the much smaller pool of corresponding older boys, is naturally the scientific reason of the age gap factor, especially since this problem is actually happening across the board by both the families/girls whom naturally match with/are looking for the full time learning boy, AND also, in the same way, by the families/girls whom naturally match with/looking for the serious college/learning boys.
Ben Torah: There is a minority of the large group of older girls that are around because they were once picky about the type of boy they were looking for, however, the majority of this very large group (about 3-4x larger than the size of group of older boys) are around simply because they are not as appealing/attractive in looks like the other girls who have gotten married – like average looking girls; and the number descrepency forces them to be the unlucky ones who are pushed up to being matched up with the much smaller (3-4x) market of older single picky/issues boys.
Popa bar abba: You didn’t read my post correctly, I stated that the majority of this ‘group’ of older single guys are most probably picky about girls’ looks and this is the major contributing factor as to why they are still around. I additionally stated that a minority of this group are not picky at all and most probably this is due to some ‘issues’ that they have. Of course there are a tiny few in this group that are neither picky nor have any issues, but they are definitely very few of such boys within this group of older single boys.