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I think the explanation of Rashi’s second peshat is simple-“Rubo K’kulo=since the majority is bain adam l’chaveioro so Hillel considered it a good answer to defining “Kol” Hatorah Kulo.
With Regard to the words of Hillel, I like Daas Yochid’s explanation and would expound on it. The essence of Kabalas Hatorah was that Klal Yisroel then became Kaviyochol “One” with Hashem through the Torah; as it says in Zohar “Yisroel V’Orayasa V’Kudsha Brich Hu Chad Hu”= Hashem, the Torah and Klal Yisroel are “One” spiritual entity with Hashem kaviyachol. This is what Rashi in Parshas Yisro on the posuk “V’Yichan Shum Yisroel Neged Hahar” says Rashi-“K’ish Echad B’laiv Echad”, meaning that the essence of Kabalas Hatorah was a unification of all Klal Yisroel with Hashem through the Torah to become kaviyachol “One” with Hashem.
So Hillel is saying that the essence of the whole Torah is this unification concept, and the Taryag mitzvos are the mediums with which to ensure and maintain this unification with Hashem. This is why Hillel used the words “that which you dislike being done to you, don’t do to your friend”, meaning this concept of “unification”; if you transgress a commandment of the Torah [be it bain adam l’makom or bain adam l’chavero], you are actually severing your own connection with Hashem and your fellow Jew.
I think the explanation of Rashi’s second peshat is simple-“Rubo K’kulo=since the majority is bain adam l’chaveioro so Hillel considered it a good answer to defining “Kol” Hatorah Kulo.
With Regard to the words of Hillel, I like Daas Yochid’s explanation and I would expound on it. The essence of Kabalas Hatorah was that Klal Yisroel became Kaviyochol “One”
Aries: I agree with you if the issue is about medication. However, if the issue is about him/her being abusive natured, then I feel the information should be forthcoming, on the grounds of “Lifnei Iveir Lo Sitein Michshol”.
Aries: I meant the wife’s mentor/rebbitzin/teacher with whom she had a relationship with in the past. Obviously an older mechaneches can be trusted to be confidential. Why is a woman’s rebbitzin any different than a man’s rosh yeshiva? Wouldn’t you agree that the first person to approach to try to positively influence the man [if he was the abuser], would be his rosh yeshiva and not his rav?
TBT: I have a gut feeling that you’re currently in the midst of grappling with this very issue right now (and you definitely seem to be the abused one NOT the abuser). Make sure you are handling with the right Rav/Mentor; it might be a good idea to seek out a another rav’s/professional opinion in the matter so you can be sure you’re on the correct path, hatzlacha.
TBT: I can’t understand how lack of self esteem should be the cause for feeling abused. The most confident people can lose all their self esteem through abuse. Divorce is not an escape in such a situation; it’s rather a forced solution to maintain mental health. Additionally, when an abuser is faced with a real possibility of divorce, it shakes them up and forces them to shape up their behavior.
Aries: I don’t think initially asking the Rav to approach the wife is the wisest idea; I would say ask the wife’s female mentor [at an earlier stage in her life] whom she naturally trusts more, so that she can explain to her nicely the husband’s position and the issues involved.
TBT: I also believe in the sanctity of marriage, and that divorce should not be taken lightly. However, every spouse who has gotten caught in such a situation must ask themselves seriously if they are ready to endure the abuse indefinitely w/o it ruining their self image, or will it end up ruining their self image and cause them to live their lives with a broken ego. If the latter is true [either because of the severity of the abuse, or because of the psychological nature of the abused spouse], then definitely divorce is the right option, since one cannot serve Hashem properly with a shattered ego. Doesn’t it say in the Torah our primary obligation is to serve Hashem with happiness -“Tachas Asher Lo Uvadita Es Hashem B’Simcha U’vituv Laivuv”? A divorced spouse serving Hashem with happiness is better than a married one serving Hashem in misery.
WS: Every wife is abused.
The problem is that every abuser thinks, in his/her perverted way of thinking, that they are actually the ones who are being abused. Human nature is very complex and complicated.
TBT: Finally you seem to be in agreement that abuse can occur in marriage. So what is your opinion as to what should be done in such a situation, since you believe divorce is absolutely not an option [as you pointed out in other threads on this topic]?
The Mizbeach cries for the abusive spouse who has caused destruction to the relationship and destruction to the home. The essence of divorce is destruction so the mizbeach naturally cries. However, who is it a real pity on-the one who was abusive and had caused the destruction!
nw13:Mitzvos bain adam l’chaveiro are also lav di’oraysa; how can you judge which is more chamur- bain adam l’chaveiro vs. bain adam l’makom?
Aries: I was surprised after reading your post. You usually are at the forefront of judging other people lkaf zchus, so it’s surprising that you’ve chosen to take the side of criticism on this thread. I think there is plenty room to judge Rezdy’s comments as just being a dramatic reaction to her bad experiences and not at all a sign of chuzpah within her character.
As far as the issues are concerned, I feel that parents should knock upon returning to the house; it is uncomfortable for a baby sitter to have to be constantly on guard so as not to feel awkward at being walked in on while shoes are off etc. If you feel you don’t trust your babysitter enough, then you should not hire her to begin with.
Most critical and opposites: SJSinNYC and Joseph. Most sharp witted: popa bar abba, mod 80. Most straight minded: Gavra at work. Most ideological: Pashuta Yid, AZ. Most sincere/warm hearted: Aries, Eclipse.
Eclipse: I’m with you, I didn’t say the wife ‘makes’ him feel inferior; I meant the husband may naturally feel inferior, because he’s lacking proper emotional health [due to his childhood upbringing], and coupled with his feelings of guilt [that his own miscalculations and/or lack of skill has caused his downfall of parnassah]. You should definitely be commended for picking yourself up and leaving an abusive marriage [and I’m a man speaking]. May Hashem give you strength to continue to raise a special yiddishe family.
Smart Cookie: I disagree with your assumption. If a marriage is healthy on the emotional level, then other pretty women will not affect a man’s marriage, since a man/woman naturally learn how to appreciate whatever they have, even if it may seem that the grass is greener elsewhere.
I’m not an expert with this issue, however, from my observation I would assume many marriages have issues but are still tolerable so they survive; and there are many that are almost on the verge of breaking.
I would divide shalom bayis issues into two categories:
1. Everything is running normal w/o any outside factors to aggravate it, but spouses just can’t get along with each other. 2. Outside factors like financial stress are aggravating the marriage and causing strain in their relationship.
The former, i would assume is being caused by one spouse being ‘dominant’ type, and too controlling of the other spouse. Either other spouse can tolerate it, or he/she becomes too miserable to be able to handle it and marriage becomes destroyed.
The latter, is obviousy caused by husband feeling inferior and insecure over his failure to bring parnassah to the home; whereas he starts to feel threatened by his wife [as if she’s confronting him over is failures] and then, as a result, he takes it out on her and emotionally abuses her thereby aggravating or destroying the marriage.
I’m not a professional; this is just a layman’s opinion.
TBT: Sorry, I thought it was a Maamar in Pirkei Avos . Maybe you can help me with identifying its source, since it definitely originates from our Sifrei Kodesh. And, I heard this Rabbeinu Yonah quoted from Shaarei Teshuva.
Mytake: The fact is, if someone has a serious issue of being inclined to dominate other people, then he will never be really helped out with modifying this middah unless he addresses it through therapy. Which Rosh Yeshiva has influence over his talmidim’s bad middos? Believe me, plenty of these masmidim w/ bad middos sit and learn mussar sefarim during mussar seder, and it barely does anything for them.
Mytake: People in this generation are generally not aware of their weak points and the phsycological source of their weakness. This is how therapy works, it makes the individual naturally identify his/her weakness and its source, so that the individual can then have an easy time changing themselves. As the Mishnah says “Shaalas Chacham Chatzi Teshuvah”, and Rabbeinu Yonah explains that when you get inner recognition of your shortcomings then you are already halfway through rectifying it.
APY,TBT: Your idea for solving anger is not well understood, since one cannot work on controlling anger unless he/she is actually in the midst of experiencing those feelings of anger, [which cannot be preset to activate]. IMO anger is a very general feeling which can be caused to different people from different factors. So if someone wishes to work on controlling their anger, he/she must first analyze and identify which incidents cause them to feel angry. Then, they should work on logical problem solving ideas to similar situations should they arise again. This way when that similar incident occurs again [and they feel angry], they will already be prepared on how to work out the situation in a practical way and defuse the tensions, so that the feelings of anger can be kept in check w/o acting upon them in an irrational way.
Go for therapy. Even healthy people can benefit from therapy sessions through gaining more self awareness of their weak points. This way they can then naturally improve themselves in those areas.
1. Speak to their roommates, they are the ones who can usually give an accurate description of the individual’s middos.
2. When obtaining information from friends, observe if good middos are from the ‘First’ qualities mentioned to describe the individual. This way you can be sure that the individual really possesses that quality.
Joseph: We definitely appreciate and welcome your call for harmony, conciliation, and brotherly love.
However, you must acknowledge that you have also erred by the manner in which you’ve expressed your opinions in the past. One must be careful to never negate/scorn other people’s opinions while expressing their own. The most basic principle of decency-derech eretz is to show respect for someone else’s opinion even if you vehemently disagree with them. This is how harmony and brotherly love is accomplished and preserved.
Waiting [respectfully] for the “New” Joseph posts to come!
TBT: You have not either brought any definite proof that Joseph has posted on the Shira name thread. Choshed B’chseirim applies even to someone who was really at fault on other occasions.
May I ask, why is your attack directed squarely at Joseph and not at the Mods? Joseph could not possibly post any of his hurtful comments alone w/o the Mods actually posting them. And how can a YWN Mod criticize Joseph w/o first criticizing himself in the process?
I feel Joseph is an intelligent person with genuine feelings, who just has a problem with his self confidence; this is why he constantly feels an urge to put down other people through expressing his extreme views.
Wolf: You’re a great guy. I really have no idea why an intelligent and sincere person like you should have any problems with his self image.
cherrybim: If you enter a kosher/treif restaurant, but you don’t actually eat anything there, then it may not be maaris ayin, since the fellow outside has reason to assume that [since you have a yarmulka on your head] you had just entered in order to get a drink or use the restroom. This is what GAW seemed to be quoting from Igros Moshe.
Wolf: You’re a great guy. I really have no idea why an intelligent and sincere person like you should have any problems with his self image.
cherrybim: If you enter a kosher/treif restaurant, but you don’t actually eat anything there, then it may not be maaris ayin, since the fellow outside has reason to assume that [since you have a yarmulka on your head] you had just entered in order to get a drink or use the restroom. This is what GAW seemed to be quoting from Igros Moshe.
GAW: I got it; you mean it’s only Assur to buy kosher food in a half kosher/half treif store, but it’s Muttar to enter the store to buy a soda or coffee [and of course use the restroom] since you are really doing something unquestionably Muttar. Thanks.
GAW: la’aniyas da’ati, I fail to understand the logic of your chiluk. If when a store only sells treif food, we say people will assume you went in to buy a soda or use the restroom; then kal v’chomer if the store sells both treif and kosher, we should definitely say people will assume you went in to buy kosher, a soda, or use the restroom?
Unless you mean, that the issur is not ‘maaris ayin’ [since one could be entering to use the restroom], but rather causing a ‘michshol’, in other words, someone ignorant might think that since this religious Jew entered the store, it must be an all kosher food store and he will then eat from all the food in the store; hence the difference between an all treif store [which even an ignorant person will not come to err] and half kosher/half treif store?
Helpful: Frum Jews should have ‘actions’ to identify themselves with, like limud hatorah and maasim tovim. For one to need to identify him/her self with this so called ‘yeshivish culture’, shows a real lack of ‘pnimiyus’ and hence nothing ‘real’ to identify themselves with.
“Yehivash” is a modern concept; its definition is merely cultural, and it’s hardly defined or has any meaning by the Torah. I don’t think the Chofetz Chaim or Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l even understood what the word yeshivash means. IMO, the yeshivash concept/culture should be abolished from this world, and the Yiddishkeit spectrum should be merely defined as Frum, very Frum, extremely frum etc.
Smartcookie: Great attitude, “kimosech yirbu b’yisroel”. And, not only friendship but also respect; every person has something special in him/her that someone else can learn to emulate!
So if it were a bochurim dirah in Israel [no chance of a pregnant woman passing through] shouldn’t it be permitted to drop the nails on the floor, since nobody can possibly get harmed?
Msseeker: MO who are shomer torah and mitzvos ARE klal yisroel, Get it into your head!
BTW: I’m a chareidi FFB just like you; and I hardly share your attitude [never in my life, would I ever think like you do]! Why don’t you just take a peek into yourself?
msseeker: You seem to be so easily willing/eager to cut yourself off from a huge segment of klal yosroel, and you don’t seem to mind if they don’t exist at all in this world-see the racism/ indifference/cruelty you feel/display towards other yidden; and then you assuage your guilt for feeling this way, by throwing the guilt on them through labeling/damning them as “people that don’t want to understand”!
As if the yeshivish people on this site can get along just fine, with no issues to bash each other about; like kollel vs. working etc.???
The real problem is within you [that you perceive every yid who’s slightly different than you as a threat], not within others. Shame on you for making such a comment!
Mdd: “They are brought down in the sefer “Chofetz Chaim.”
Please state where in sefer Chofetz Chaim does it say that there is a mitzvah of “Hocheach Tochiach Es Amisecha” with regard to someone else’s behavior that is not halachically defined as ‘assur’ al pi halacha?
“If somebody judges others wrongly, it is a ta’ana.”
A Taana? It is an “Issur Dioreisa”; as written in the Torah [and sefer chafetz chaim] “B’tzedek Tishpot Amisecha”. There is absolutely no difference between the obligation of Hocheach Tocheiach [if applicable] and the obligation of “B’tzedek Tishpot Amisecha”
Aries2756: I feel for you, and I understand exactly how you feel. You seem like a real sincere and compassionate person. I think it would be a good idea for you to seek out one of the sincere and good hearted rabbanim out there, and make him your Rav. This way you can shelter yourself by surrounding yourself with the good; and you will learn to ignore the bad [to the best of your ability], and leave it for Hashem to worry about.
Just keep in mind that Hashem runs the world; so therefore: 1. Nobody suffers if it is not Hashem’s will, and 2. There will be a Dim V’cheshbon in shamayim for any aggression committed in this world, regardless of their stature.
Moq: I hope you will forgive me if I (amongst other right wing/chareidi posters) might have offended you with some of my/their posts. I really enjoyed your posts; maybe you’ll have second thoughts about this and change your mind.
GAW: Agreed. Just Bitochon has an even deeper meaning when we understand this concept of connection/deveykus, since God will not hurt Himself koviyochel; and God will not part from us if we don’t forsake Him and send Him away. Gut shabbos.
SJS: I apologize that I spoke too forceful to you.
GAW: The literal translation of the word “Liduvka” means “connect”, in the same way the Torah uses the words “Viduvak Bi’ishto” which obviously means to literally connect spiritually.
The Torah consistently repeats this concept of deveykus; “V’atem Hadiveikim B’Hashem Elokechem Chaim Kulchem Hayom”, and one a similar note: “Ki Hashem Mis’halech Bikerev Machanecha Vihuyu Machanecha Kodosh, which also infers that God is actually present[and thereby connected] where the Jews are present. Also the famous midrash on the posuk “Vishachanti Bisocha”-Bisoch Kol Echad V’echad”, which clearly indicates that God is actually koviyochol present in the heart/soul of each Jew. I don’t think these pesukim and midrashim can be classified as mysticism; rather this is “Pishuto Shel Mikra”.
Now do delve a litter deeper into this concept; the connection to God can occur only through us first believing and then connecting ourselves emotionally with God, since God cannot feel connected to us if we don’t feel connected to him; in the same way that V’davak B’ishto only occurs if the feelings are mutual. This is what the posuk means when it says: “Ki Hashem Mis’halech B’kerev Machanecha V’huyu Machanecha Kodosh..Ervas Duvur V’shuv Mei’achrecha”; meaning that God cannot be present within the Jews if his resting place [kaviyochel] is not holy/spiritual, [just like the bais hamikdash needed to be holy for God’s presence]. This is also “Pishuto Shel Mikra”, not at all “Soid”/mystical.
After one understands that God is actually present within us [if we make spiritual room for him koviyochol within us], then we can understand that our mitzvos/torah/tefilla are our interaction with God which makes us closer to Him, in the same way that interaction between a man and his wife and doing for each other bring upon themselves more closeness.
I will agree to you that Malachim being created touches on the mystical aspect, [which wouldn’t be a bad idea to delve into a little in order to strengthen our spiritual awareness].
I don’t have a chumash in front of me so I didn’t post parsha/dibbur for the above pesukim; I apologize.
I also have issues with the Chareidi world, I’m not a blinded chareidi. However, I don’t think discussing those issues on this forum will be beneficial [since it won’t change anything] and therefore it might be considered loshin hara. I still believe that Charedim represent authentic Judaism [they just need modification in other areas]. (And I don’t know aything at all about tikun or the other book you mentioned).
Thank you for having a respectful discussion with me.
Josh31: I pointed out that one cannot possibly fulfill the biblical law of “Viahavta Es Hashem Elokecha” if they do not recognize the spiritual entity of the actual Torah [and that it is an extension koviyochol of God Himself], and understand that when studying it inside, one actually connects/bonds their soul with this spiritual entity. This is demonstrated clearly in the midrash [which explains the posuk] I quoted above, which states that the only way to feel real love/connection to God [and thereby fulfilling this mitzvah] is through “V’hayu Hadevarim Ha’ela Al Livuvecha-placing divrei torah on your heart/soul through continuous diligent study. And since one cannot possibly feel this emotion of love/connection to God while studying w/o them actually believing that this connection occurs, then obviously one requires to first be knowledgeable with the mystical essence of Torah, in order for them to then actually feel this connection, and thereby fulfill this biblical law of “V’ahavta Es Hashem Elokecha” [which is one of the primary obligations of every man and woman].
Similarly, one cannot fulfill the [emotion related] Biblical law of “L’duvku Bo” w/o him/her first being aware of mystical nature of all mitzvos, since one cannot possibly feel this actual connection/deveykus to God w/o him/her believing that it actually occurs.
And God gave us the power of abstract thinking, to be able to grasp this spiritual nature of the world and perceive it as reality, [rather than merely belief].
Lastly, there was obviously a reason why the sages compiled so many passages of aggadah together with the Talmud; since they understood that every Jew must have some familiarity with the reality of the spiritual world in order for him to properly fulfill the Nigla/revealed part of the Torah.
GAW: 1) “To see Aggada sources for this understanding of the mitzvah of talmud torah [to connect with God], check up my previous post (page 4) in which I quoted numerous sources.
Yes, but nothing inside. Please show me where I can look it up for myself. There have been way too many misquotes here.”
I just quoted a source in the above post: “V’ahavta Es Hashem Elokecha”; inner love and connection are really the same essence. [How else do you tempt t explain this mitzvah to master tractates of Gemorah which totally don’t contain any halachos that are applicable b’zman hazeh?]
2) “For point 2, you are differentiating between the Chiyuv of Talmud Torah to Mitzva of Limud. I don’t disagree, but Dr. Hall is not incorrect.”
I’m not interested in getting into a tit for tat as to whether I stated that Mr Hall is halachically incorrect [which I actually didn’t].
3) “However, one must still believe in the truth of the agadda in talmud which states that when one does a mitzvah he creates an angel.
I don’t think anyone will disagree, but that is not the point of the mitzva. That is actually similar to being Oved to accept reward (i.e. create a “Malach” (also not explained) that will be a Maylitz for you & the world), which is a lesser madraiyga.”
Absolutely wrong, the creation of the angel shows the actual essence of the mitzvah itself. The mitzvah is the angel, and the angel is the mitzvah; this is how the connection to God occurs, since the angel is the connection. The melitz yosher part is a side point. See how people in your circles don’t delve properly into the meaning of aggados.
4) “Our obligation to believe in this is obviously learned from the mitzvah of “Lidivka Boa” since one cannot possibly obtain deveykus w/o believing in the mystical aspect of the mitzvos. (sic)
Finally, we are getting somewhere. Lidavka Bo. But you don’t explain why you require the mysticism. Rashi seems to say the point is to do Korbanos because Hashem wants it, not mysticism.”
GAW, it is not possible to feel actual connection to God, if you don’t believe in mystical belief that the connection occurs. This is simple logic. I explained to you what Rash”i means in the above post.
5)”If all people in MO community really believed in this spiritual nature of mitzvos,
Which you have still not explained.”
I think I explained it very clearly. The spiritual nature of the mitzvos, is the mystical belief behind it.
6)”The way I see your point is that you believe without Chassidus, Mitvos are “Judaism that carries no spiritual significance”. (paraphrase).
That is OK for you to believe.
And you did not answer my question regarding Lubavitch.”
I’m actually a simple chareidi Jew, w/o any affiliation to any chasidus. I really don’t know why you even think I am a chosid.
SJS: “And why would a woman not want to rely on her husband’s learning? Would you rely on paying someone else to do mitzvos for you? Especially if it helps you connect to Hashem?”
If you believe in what the Gemorah says that a man is not complete with Torah w/o him spiritually giving/sharing the actual Torah that he learns with his wife; then how can you possibly deny him this spiritual fulfillment by opting to ignore his learning and learn yourself?
In addition, the Gemorah in Nedarim is referring to the daily obligation of talmud torah, which is learned from the posuk in Yehoshua “V’Higisa Boa Yomam V’layala”, which the Gemorah states that in can be accomplished through kriyas shema morning and night. However, the general lifetime obligation of acquiring Torah knowledge which is learned from the posuk “V’shinantum L’banecha”-Sheyihu divrei torah Michudadim Bificha”, obviously requires a lifetime of intense and repeated learning.