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mommamia: Who claimed in the other thread that they wouldn’t daven in an MO shul? I would definitely daven in a MO shul if I spend Shabbos in the vicinity. I genuinely love all Jews. For me to daven on a permanent basis, I would look for a Shul in which most/many of the members are like minded as myself, so I would feel comfortable in my surroundings.
Popa, great post! MO is a philosophy, therefore we can discuss if their philosophy is right or not, the same way they may discuss why their leaders felt chareidi philosophy is not applicable for today’s day and age. Of course we are not allowed to discuss particular people who believe in the traditional Chareidi ideology but don’t really actually practice it too well. If the MO community would disclaim their ideological beliefs, but would still practice the same behavior as they do, then nobody would have a right to cha”v criticize them on a public forum.
Feif Un, Mikehall: i agree with you that Chareidim seem to be obsessed with looking for the hard way, which is not a good thing. However, Modern orthodox do tend to look for the minimum requirement when it comes to mitzvos bain adam l’makom. It seems that Modern Orthodox lack somewhat in their motivation with mitzvos bain adam l’makom, whilst Chareidim seem to be over obsessed with chumros on bain adam l’makom mitzvos to compensate for their lack of focus on bain adam l’chaveiro mitzvos.
Itche srulik: Litvishe Chareidim historically have never believed their rabbanim had special powers [even if they did believe that some leaders had ruach hakodesh, it was never an obligation or considered a central part to their Judiasm]. Only Chasidim hold that belief in the spiritual powers of their rebbe is a crucial part to their Judaism.
Feif un: I don’t think the internet can be used as a definition of Modern vs Chareidi Judaism since the split between Charedim and Modern Orthodox occured way before the internet was invented. Additionally, many Chareidim also hold that the internet should be taught to be used when filtered and for productive purposes.
Popa, you make a good point that a child perceives Hashem through his father and a harsh father who’s obsessed with his own ego can definitely turn off a child from yiddishkeit. However, many times children go off for completely different reasons, like from growing up in a family in which the spirituality was shallow, and parents were too lenient and not demanding anything from their children. Also, some times a child who has learning disability or was lacking in gashmiyus in his home, may also be turned off from yiddishkeit out of lack of self confidence.
Hello99: I had posted earlier that an official study was done here in the USA. Data was obtained from a big shadchan here in America; and from studying over 1000 family records of singles, it was determined that the average Chareidi family size here is 6.8 siblings per family. A TFR of 6.8 equals an annual growth rate of between 3.8 to 4.2 respectively.
Hello99, DY: Google “Chareidim/ Chareidi Growth Rate and you’ll find many links for statistics on Chareidi population growth rate in Israel, which all put the annual growth rate there well over 4%. Like I pointed out in my previous posts, the Chareidi growth rate in America cannot be much lower than the growth rate in Israel, given that the birth rate here is almost like it is in there. I guess 4% is a conservative estimate.
Dr. Pepper: (Thanks for your humorous jokes on the funny shidduch stories thread!) I don’t understand why your R”Y didn’t want to sign on that letter; the letter is by no means an endorsment of the NASI organization, it is rather an endorsment of the age gap problem which has been in existence in Klal Yisroel for decades. Given that many older leading R”Y have signed on that letter, it is hard to understand why a particular R”Y would insist on excluding himself from the Klal without good reason.
Hello99: Well then they are dead wrong. TFR- total fertility rate is the most reliable method to determine the growth rate of a given population; a TFR of 6.8 translates to a growth rate of between 3.8 and 4.2%. Additionally, the many secular Israeli studies which all show the chareidi growth rate above 4% are alot more reliable than the avi chai study of a few day schools enrollment.
Daas Yochid: The Chareidi population in America may have a slightly lower growth rate than the Chareidi population in Israel, but this would nevertheless put them close to 4% annual growth rate.
DY: The Chareidi population in America grows by 4% per year as I pointed out in my previous post, (not 2-3% like you quoted from that article, which is discussing the general Orthodox Jewish community).
Hello 99: As I pointed out in my previous post, the Chareidi population in America is growing annually by around 4%. So it is actually statistically impossible that there are the same number of girls age 30+ as there are boys age 30+; 4% per year with 3 year age gap=12%, deduct 4% for male/female birth ratio=8% unmarried. I don’t see how you can possibly ignore this mathematical equation, which is a scientific fact.
Hello99: There is a mathematical formula to calculate the growth rate of a given population based on the TFR-total fertility rate of that population. A study of over 1000 records of families in Chareidi community here, (which was taken from the database of a leading shadchan here in America), showed an average of 6.8 siblings per family. A TFR of 6.9 translates into an annual growth of between 3.8 and 4.2%.
Additionally, there are many documented Israeli studies of the Chareidi population in Israel which all show an average of at least 4% annual growth rate of the Chareidi community there. I’ve seen a few studies myself, and I’m sure if you do a little research you’ll also find these same statistics.
(As an aside, the avi chai foundation study includes a wide spectrum of the Orthodox community in America. We are discussing here the Chareidi community only, which we can assume is not much different than the Chareidi community in Israel).
Instead of trying to ask questions about the MO community which you and I are not quiet familiar with; why don’t you bring proof of the age gap theory from the Chasidishe community here in America whom are not experiencing at all any shortage of boys (to the contrary, they experience a shortage of girls) which can obviuosly be attributed to the fact that they marry close in age.
Hello99: I’ve already argued with you in the past. The growth rate in the chareidi community is around 4% per year, given the high birth rate in the community with an average of 6-7 children per family. It is also a known demographic fact that the chareidi population in Israel doubles every 16 years due to an annual 4-4.5% growth rate.
Mosheemes: Obama did not call on the Palestinians to compromise on the issue of refugees/recognize Israel’s right as being a Jewish state, as a pre condition for negotiations on ’67’ borders, unlike Bush who had stated that in his Road map speech.
Pac Man: For arguments sake, I’m willing to bet you that it was not done in Der Alte Heim. The Minhag was to do it exclusively in Miron by the Kever Rashb”i, and it dates back at least 500 years.
Charlie Hall: Please explain the refugee issue? I understand that Bush declared that Israel will not give major territorial concessions before Palestinians agree to resolve the refugee issue and recognize Israel right as a Jewish state. Obama has clearly stated that Israel should first recede to the ’67’ lines and only later address the refugee issue; which of course the Palestinians will never agree to compromise on, so there will never be peace.
Pac Man: If it was so important to Chasidishe religious life, I’m sure they would arrange for it to be done on Lee Ave. (I’ve never seen it in Satmar Monsey either.) Did they do it in Der Alte Heim?
Pac Man: Maybe its a recent development. Do they make in Williamsburg too?
Its a minhag Eretz Yisroel. Satmar chasidim in America don’t make bonfires. Breslov does here, since their main chasidus is situated in EY. Lets not associate Kabala with Chasidim; Kabala has been around way before Chasidim.
The light is the virtual act of refraining from doing inappropriate acts in the future. Your future act of refraining yourself, causes more spiritual light to be created since it comes in the aftermath of darkness.
How do you think Jewish women who were married to Arabs and were later saved through the Israeli organization Yad… I read on YWN thata Gadol in EY said they actively bring Moshiach closer through returning themselves to Yiddishkeit. If this can be said about those women, than kal v’chomer to someone in your circumstance (I’m not actually comparing ch”v).
The Midrash says light is only appreciated when it comes after darkness.
How about laziness? Isn’t that the main factor for losing interest in learning Torah? The natural enjoyment of learning only comes after accomplishment of learning, not before.
And, unfortunately there are many learners out there who do in fact speak Loshon Hara. Learning Torah alone doesn’t seem to be a natural shield from speaking loshon hara. One must make a conscience effort to refrain from speaking loshon hara; learner and non learner alike.
Wolf: So you can rather choose “Tinu Eineichem B’Yofi” as Popa quoted. However, others might feel more of a pull towards “Mishpacha”.
In my above post I was referring to yichus of girl’s parents or grandparents.
Yichus gives you a feeling as being part of the elite; like when you attend her family simchas and you are represented as being part of their elite club.
Also usually ‘protektzia’ comes together with yichus. This can help with getting yourself a good job or getting your children into the mosdos of your choice.
Additionally, yichus can give you immediate public recognition, since people will naturally assume that you must be something special if a yichusdik family took you for a son in law.
There is obviously a reason why the Mishna mentions as one of three primary things when searching for a girl, “Tinu Einichem B’Mishpacha”.
The OP is a woman, so I don’t either understand what she means. But for a man its easily understandble that sins comitted during adolescent years can permanently damage his yiras shamayim for lifetime.
Bina: Is your spouse an introvert like yourself, or is he an extrovert?
I would say that the majority of people are extroverts and the minority are introverts. I wonder what is the actual ratio.
Introverts tend to be more thinkers than doers. Also they don’t require recognition from other people in order for themselves to feel secure.
I thought the CIA looks stronger these days since OBL raid, so the CIA might not oppose his release in the same way they have opposed it in the past. Also Obama might want to use his release as a means to extract political concessions from Netanyahu with regard to the Israeli Palestinian negotiations.
Yes I am. My wife is extroverted. Was wondering how it would be marrying an introvert like myself.
Aries, I’m sorry for butting in and attacking you,(I mistakingly took it personal, and thought you were deliberately questioning the validity of the posuk Chumash and Mishna in an issue which is one of the principal foundations of Judaism); I apologize.
Aries: Stubborness runs in your family.
Aries: You need to go to Yeshiva in order to properly learn a posuk Chumash and Mishna.
DZ: Likewise there are many Midrashim which state that there was reward given by Hashem to gentiles for good deeds which they have done (aside from sheva mitzvos binei Noach).
Aries: Hashem has compassion for all his creations, as the posuk says “V’Rachamuv Al Kol Maasuv”; although compassion may not necessarily be considered love.
Aries: We became Hashem’s children upon becoming Hashem’s chosen people. This is a posuk in Chumash as popa correctly quoted. Of course Hashem has a plan and purpose for all other nations of the world which He created, [as I tried explaining in my above post that there is definitely given sechar v’oinesh in the world to come for the deeds of all humans in this world], however, this doesn’t translate into being children of Hashem. As an aside, if we c”v sin to Hashem, we may also be considered Avadim/slaves and not Banim/children, as we recite in the davening of yomim nora’im “Im K’Banim..Im K’Avadim”.
Silent One: I also remember the Yated article. There was a second article which appeared two weeks later in Yated (written by Avrohom Birnbaum) in which Rav Stein Shlit”a addressed the general tzibbur and requested everyone to daven for all Yiddishe Techter that they should find their zivug.
American Guy goes to restaurant, Israeli Sephardi taking orders behind the counter, and he asks for a ‘Frank Al Ha’eish’!
I agree with Haleivi’s post; this is how its explained in Zohar. Also the Gemara says “Ein HKB”H Mikapeiach Sechar Kol Berya”; obviously Non Jews are included in “Kol Berya”. Its also only logical that if Non Jews are punished in the World to come for evil behavior they have committed, then on the same token, they will obviously also be likewise rewarded for good deeds they have done in this world. The Midrashim are filled with Ma’amarim which discuss how different gentiles were rewarded by Hashem for good deeds they have done vs. Hashem and vs. fellow gentiles.
Canine, Manohman: The Left teach us the concept to let ‘others live’ through understanding from where other peoples weakness originate; however, the Right teach us to demand perfection from ‘ourselves’ and to not be tolerant of our ‘own’ weakness. The correct Torah approach is to combine these two concepts within ourselves, so that we can then properly fulfill all the mitzvos of the Torah.
Haleivi: I agree with you that a Yeshiva is a place to learn Torah and it’s not structured to cater to these kind of problems. However, your suggestion that parents should pick out the problem on their own, is hardly realistic since in most cases these problems actually originate from the home, through having one abusive parent which they learned to copy their behavior from.
Silent One: I agree with you that Mussar classes will definitely help modify the behavior of someone who has tendencies to be abusive. Still, in severe cases it seems that Mussar classes are just not sufficient to change these people’s behavior. The only solution for these real abusive mentally ill people is for them to get professional help from a frum therapist. I’m not cha”v throwing out any halacha of S”A, to the contrary, I’m saying that some people just don’t connect to what S”A/Mussar sefarim are saying. I’m just as upset as you are about this phenomenon; it’s really heartbreaking to know about all the violence that’s out there and that nothing is being done to address this problem on a community level.
Silent One: Someone who possesses selfishness or/and arrogance definitely make it difficult for someone else to have a good relationship with them. However, these character traits do not induce abusive behavior, so therefore it is still possible to maintain a relationship with them, as unpleasant as it may be sometimes.
Arrogance and selfishness originate from a lack of discipline and self understanding of social relationships. You may classify it as Middos Raos, but it definitely can’t be associated with abusive behavior-meaning intentionally putting down another person for the sole purpose of feeling themselves self confident.
Only real abusive behavior is devastating to a marriage as it makes life unbearable for the spouse, and it stems solely from deep seated insecurity [and not from lack of discipline]. The logical solution therefore is to directly address the insecurity which is inducing this behavior. I don’t think regular Mussar classes are sufficient to address such serious behavior problems. Only individual therapy which is specifically designed to deal with these cases would be the real solution.
Silent One: Someone who possesses selfishness or/and arrogance definitely make it difficult for someone to have a good relationship them. However, these character traits do not induce abusive behavior, so therefore it is still possible to maintain a relationship with them, as unpleasant as it may be sometimes. Arrogance and selfishness originate from a lack of discipline and self understanding of social relationships. You may classify it as Middos Raos, but it definitely can’t be associated with abusive behavior-meaning intentionally putting down another person for the sole purpose of feeling themselves self confident. Only real abusive behavior is devastating to a marriage as it makes life unbearable for the spouse, and it stems solely from deep seated insecurity [and not from lack of discipline]. The solution therefore is to directly address the insecurity which is inducing this behavior. I don’t think regular Mussar classes are sufficient to address such serious behavior problems; only individual therapy which is specifically designed to deal with these cases would be the real solution.
Observerteen: I think a lot can be known about a person through following their posts; like hashkafa, middos, personality. I would say even more so than from real dates. The only obvious part which can’t be seen is their physical appearance.
Health: There is a difference between someone in the midst if going through a nisoyon, to someone who has already past it. With the former, we must sympathize with and not ch”v belittle the hardship they are in the midst of experiencing. The latter however, can only benefit from looking at their past experience in a positive light, and thereby motivate themselves to go on further in life and accomplish.
Silent One: Many/most people contain within them some feelings of insecurity, however we are discussing here people that experience deep and severe levels of insecure feelings. If the insecurity is deep and severe, then it will obviously trigger extreme behavior in order to placate those feelings.
I was just saying that theoretically the only real solution is that these people address their insecurity through therapy and their behavior would then be modified. Of course I understand that the execution of this solution is extremely difficult [if not impossible] on a practical level.
Tums: What’s wrong with that expression? It actually helps reshape our bain adam l’chaveiro attitude.
Silent one: Abusive behavior most definitely stems from insecurity. Low self esteem [as you claim you feel] is not necessarily insecurity. Aggressive behavior is solely generated from feelings of insecurity, as it gives with it feeling of security upon acting aggressive. (Nazi behavior was also generated from feelings of insecurity.)
The only eitzah to rectify this phenomenon, is that people who are aggressive should be made to recognize that their behavior is abnormal, and they need to address their insecurity through therapy. I believe that if all these people would go for individual therapy before they get married, then they will become totally healed and lead healthy marriages.
SJS: We are discussing emotional abuse not physical abuse. I understand that women are naturally afraid to physically hurt their husbands [even if they feel like they want to]. Emotional abuse is still an easy weapon for a woman to use, since even a man is vulnerable and defenseless to it.
Haleivi: You’re again mixing up the literal understanding of mitzvos from their deeper understanding. As I explained clearly on the other thread, “Ein Mikra Yotzeo Meidei Pishuto”-the mitzvos of bain adam l’chaveiro have a simple meaning. Rabbi Akiva actually made a clear differentiation between mitzvos bain adam l’makom and mitzvos bain adam l’chaveiro; unlike Hillel’s words which are a defining the whole Torah in general in its deeper understanding.
BTW, if you still insist on defending your views, why don’t you just anaylize Hillel’s actions as mentioned in the Gemara. Hillel, the Godol Hador, is preparing hurriedly for Shabbos, someone comes knocking on the door demanding to speak to Hillel immediately, Hillel comes running out of shower, person asks him the most silliest nonsense irrelevant questions, Hillel calmly respectfully answers his questions, and returns to the shower, five minutes later..repeated again for a third time, Hillel answeres calmly and respectfully. how do you define this behavior of Hillel?-Natural good middos par excellence (w/o kavod hatorah or other bain adam l’makom considerations dictating opposite behavior).
SJS: I don’t have first hand knowledge in this field (and I doubt you do either), but your estimate of 90% vs. 10% seems logically way off. The same percent of people born with tendences to control other people is equally split between male/female gender, so I can’t see why the equation would change so drastically when it comes to relationship in marriage.