Lomed Mkol Adam

Yitayningwut: I checked out what Panentheism means. I can’t understand how you can compare Panentheism to the concept of Diveikus in Judaism. Panentheism means that the whole universe is part of God not only peoples souls. Panentheism attributes the physical world to God’s being. L’havdil, the concept of Deveikus in Judaism means that only the souls of the Jewish nation are one spiritual essence with God. Also the concept means that through unification, Jewish souls become part of God kaviyochol, not that Jewish souls are inheritly a part God ch”v. Addditionally, the unification of God with each individual Jew is not a ‘mitzius’ that happened at Matan Torah; but rather it is a new occurence that God constantly does with each individual Jew through the Jew’s actions of connecting himself with God.

Yitaningwut: I’m discussing mitzvos bain adam l’makom which are not hard at all to be mihadar in them, like Daled Minim on Sukkos, Matzos on Pesach etc. Charedim are eager and motivated to seek out the mihudar ones, and MO don’t seem to really care much for hidurim. They look at hidurim as a funny concept.

Yitayningwut: The issue is the motivation. MO aren’t too motivated to be ‘mihadar’ in mitzvas bain adam l’makom, therefore they will usually follow the more lenient view; whereas Chareidim are motivated to be ‘mihadar’ with mitzvas bain adam l’makom, therefore they will generally want to follow the more stringent view.

Yitayningwut: You got it all wrong. Deveikus is a unique concept exclusive to Judaism. No other religion believes that man can actually be connected with God.

I don’t think you are familiar at all with Litvish Hashkafa; the Deveikus concept is absolutely the foundation of Litvish Hashkafa. According to Litvish Hashkafa, being ‘Daveik’ to Torah is in essence being Daveik with Hashem, because the Torah is an impartion from God Himself as GAW quoted from the Gemara/Midrash [see previous page].

Metrodriver: The Yekkish community and Rav Breuer Zt”l were vehemently against Modern Orthodoxy. RSRH held one should get a secular education in order to make a parnassah for the purpose of serving Hashem. He never held that secular education in a goal for itself. Anyone who is a true Orthodox Jew believes that there is only one goal for a Jew in this world, and that is to serve Hashem, and that’s all.

Shilishi: Go review Chasidish history. How do you think a majority of Eastern European Jewry turned Chasidish?

Oy vey kids: So you are honestly saying that you go attend college and dedicate your life for your degree and career in order to reach a higher level of Ahavas Hashem?

Yitayningwut: I didn’t say they have no meaning at all in what they do; of course that would be a ridiculous statement, given that all religions in the world carry at least some meaning to their adherents. I wrote that they don’t recognize the uniqueness of Judaism, and that Judaism is the only religion that carries with it the concept of “Deveikus”, meaning that every Jew is literally connected with God. This ‘Deveikus’ concept opens up a deep dimension in a person’s feelings, which only grows with each Torah learning and mitzvah which he subsequently does. This is the value which I claimed as central and exclusive to Chareidi philosophy.

Yaffo80: Chasidim have a tradition of turning Litvaks into Chasidim, w/o feeling any remorse for the anguish they bring on the Litvak’s family.

Yitayningwut: I’m not splitting hairs. There is a root difference in Hashkafa between Chareidi Jewry and MO Jewry. I was just identifying what the root difference is. All the behavioral differences between the two communities are just a natural outcome of this root Hashkafic difference. Rav Yosha Ber made changes to the traditional way of thought of the Orthodox Jewish community; this is why his followers gave their philosophy a new name called “Modern Orthodoxy”.

The title “Halachic Man” demonstrates the point of differentiation between Chareidi and MO. Halacha w/o hergesh/spiritual feelings is like a ‘Guf’ w/o a ‘Nishama’. Traditional Litvish Hashkafa connects the ‘Nishama/soul’ with the Torah learning/Halacha; whereas the MO philosophy separates the two from each other, thereby remaining solely with Halacha as the title of the sefer “Halachic Man” demonstrates.

nw13: You are portraying Chareidim the way MO portrays them, not the way Chareidim portray themselves.

Derech Hamelech: Can you quote a Torah source that learning secular studies accomplishes “Maale Hachol El Hakodesh” Btw, it actually accomplishes the opposite.

Itche Srulik: So you are equating MO philosophy with Emes and Chareidi philosophy with Shtus? Chareidi philosophy is the traditional Jewish philosophy dating back over a millenim.

Gavra: source for what? “Mitoch Shelo Lishma” means learning in order to become a recognized scholar, but still believing in the concept that the words of Torah learning literally connect oneself with Hashem. This kind of learning accomplishes in the long term ‘Lishma’-for the sake of learning. The learning I was discussing above was learning while lacking this fundemental belief; such learning is not classified under “Shelo Lishma” in the Gemara, and naturally will never accompish the “Lishma” which the Gemara refers to.

One can learn Torah all day and actually be a great Torah Scholar, but if he doesn’t believe that during each word of Torah which he utters from his mouth he is literally connecting to Hashem, then he will not become a spiritually elevated person. Whereas, one who is not bright at all, but recognizes that with each word of Torah he utters he is literally connecting with Hashem, and sits and learns each day w/o ever becoming a recognized scholar, he is actually the one who becomes a spiritually elevated person, which is the real purpose of Limud Hatorah.

Gavra: There is only one Deveikus concept. And yes, it is mifurash Midrash like you qouted (as well as many other sources). Both Litvaks and Chasidim believe that this is the core of Judaism. The difference between Litvaks and Chasidim is to whether Limud Hatorah is necessary to reach this Diveikus or not. I personally am a Litvak.

Do you really believe that all MO sincerely believe in this Midrash? Do they really believe that a Talmid Chacham who learns Torah all day is on a higher spiritual plane then the layman who works? It’s clearly evident from their general lack of Emunas Chachamim that they actually do not believe this.

RSRH: Agreed. That was the approach of the Malbim and other German Rabbanim when dealing with the Reform. However, I agree with the OP that Hergesh/feelings for Yiddishkeit is a crucial element of Judaism as the Gemara says “Rachmana Liba Bo’ei”. You can’t qoute a halachic source which states that one is not yotzei a mitzah bain adam l’makom if he doesn’t feel any hergesh, but if someone is seriously lacking general hergesh for these mitzvos, then something is obviously seriously wrong with his Judaism.

80: Quark2 is really a talmid chacham, check out his recent posts on the Tzizus thread. I don’t think he’s Mr Guberfield.

Gavra: I’ll agree with you that Yeshivos in Europe pre war were exclusively for the elitist, and that was R’ Chaim Volozihner’s intention when he established the first Yeshiva. However, in today’s day and age Yeshivos are universely necesssary in order to instill basic motivation for Yiddishkeit in our youth. If Yeshivos were segregated in the way you propose, then many would opt to go to college instead of merely being considered a second class Yeshiva student. To qoute Rav Hutner Zt”l, Yeshivas used to be like a Mishkan [for the elitist only], now yeshivos are like Noach’s Teiva; in other words we need regular Yeshivos for everyone in order to perserve Yiddishkeit.

GAW: How exactly do you expect to set the cutting line to decide who is sufficiently smart enough to join an elite Yeshiva? Doesn’t every Jew, regardless of how smart he is, have a right to strive for his own greatness? Are you willing to be in charge of this ‘Selection process’ and decide who will not be given a chance to try to achieve his Gadlus, based on your IQ test of him? Torah is a yirusha/inheritence for every single Jew, so every Jew can obtain Gadlus. I would not recommend at all this proposed segregation.

I don’t touch meat or chicken; I’m b’shitta a vegeterian. I do eat fish though. It seems like the 9 days became priviliged days in which you get to eat gormet milchig dishes which you can’t afford all year round.

Health: sorry, I meant the Gemara Nidah 13A.

I fail to understand why the Torah punishment of an aveira is the measuring stick to determine the severity of a specific aveira. You had yourself stated earlier that Ritzicha is more chamur than Shabbos even though its capital punishment is less severe than Chillul Shabbos. Someone who is Bo’el Aramis cha”v invites on himself a world of “Klipos” r”l, whereas someone who is merely mechalel shabbos cha”v does not metameh himself with all these “Klipos Teme’os” r”l,which is the essence of the real Gehinom.

Yitayningwut: Great post, I agree with your analysis, thanks.

Shilishi: I didn’t mean to infer that all children who text on Shabbos r”l are emotionally messed up. Many children are just not too inspired to keep Yiddishkeit. However, the many teens who are actually messed up emotionally, as a result of their parents/rabbaim abuse and humiliation, are definitely in the category of ‘Oi’nes’, and logically it would seem that the parents/rabbeim carry the ultimate responsibility for the child’s future actions, or they are at least responsible for the aveira of Ritzicha for emotionally killing this child for life.

I don’t think Levi Aron’s actions is comparable to teens being mechalel shabbos; someone doesn’t kill a child unless he has muderous instincts with perverted ta’avos which he desires to fulfill; however through abusive/humiliating parents a child can lose his whole desire for Yiddishkeit, making all mitzvos absolutely meaningless to him. would you go daven each day if the words in tefila have absolutely no emotional meaning to you at all?

And I was just qouting a Gemara regarding the severity of the issur of Loshon Hara; are you disagreeing with the Gemara?

Popa, I would add that Loshon Hara is even worse than all of the above, as the Gemara says that at the end of times Hashem will forgive those who transgressed the 3 big Chamuros- killing/arayos/avoda zara, but Hashem will not forgive those who spoke Loshon Hara randomly -“Uma Yisron L’baal Haloshon”.

Whoever messed up these teens in the first place, will get the ultimate punishment of all.

Mod80: who is Rav Moshe Halberstadt? I need verses from the Torah or Talmud or Midrash; the Rishonim also have to be quoted with exact wording. The Gemara says its “Assur L’histakel Bifnei Rasha” since one can be spiritually harmed from this stare; however it doesn’t say that its a mitzvah or permitted to physically hate him.

Bar shattya: Its Assur to hate anyone. Hatred of people is evil, period. We must despise what the Torah describes as an essence of evil as the posuk in Tehilim says “Ohavei Hashem Sin’u Rah”, but we may never interpet the hatred in a practical way at a specific human being.