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Oy Vey: You quote from the Rav: “Once the halacha is being followed, then one should build his Hergesh/Dveykus/feelings/emotions upon that.”
This is exactly the point; Chareidim begin their Judaism with Hergesh/Dveykus and then afterwards they connect their feelings with Halacha as was quoted above from Nefesh Hachaim; whereas MO begin their Judaism with Halacha, and then afterwards try to somehow create spiritual emotions upon that. How exactly do you create spiritual emotions out of practicing Halacha?
Yitayningwut: The Nefesh Hachaim means to say that one does not need to have an actual kavana/thought of deveikus while studying Torah, and that focusing solely on understanding the Gemara when studying is not a contradiction to learning ‘Lishma’ and accomplishing ‘deveikus’. I don’t think the Nefesh Hachaim disagrees at all with what the Ramch”al explains in the first chapter of Mesilas Yishorim that the ultimate purpose of a Jew is to accomplish “Deveikus Bo Yisborach”.
Yitayningwut: Can you please quote a passage from the Nefesh Hachaim which contradicts what I quoted from the Mesilas Yishorim?
Twisted: Emotions connect man’s physical being with his soul. Through emotions one can connect himself with the spiritual world. Intelligence is just a vehicle for one’s emotions to express itself in a more sophisticated and broader way.
Hello99: Every Chareidi Jew defines for him/herself an own definition of separation. Some sit in Bais Medrash all day and don’t speak at all to Goyim. Others join the workforce and create for themselves a separation in their workplace. Still others [like Yekkes] may even attend college, and create for themselves a separation in the college campus. My point is that a general separation barrier must be created in order to preserve our feelings for Yiddishkeit, regardless to what extent the actual barrier is; and one cannot rely on the individual ‘harchokos’ which Chaz”al instituted in specific cases, since those harchokos are not at all related to a Yid’s general obligation of creating for himself a physical/emotional barrier from secular world.
Yitayningwut: I stated clearly the Chareidi point of view, that there is a Torah concept of creating a separation for Jews, and the purpose of this is in order to lay the groundwork for a Jew to become connected to Hashem. Then I brought sources from the Torah/Gemara which mention this concept with its understanding.
Also, Mesilas Yishorim and Nefesh Hachaim come from the same Bais Medrash. The Vilna Gaon, the Rebbe of the Nefesh Hachaim, said that the first ten chapters of the Mesillas Yishorim were written with Ruach Hakodesh.
Annoynimus: RSRH had no shaychas with MO philosophy; “Torah Im Derech Eretz” is a very different philosophy than “Torah Im Mada”. I wouldn’t mind at all if you claim Chareidim base their Judaism with emotions and not intellect. Emotions is the greatest gift God gave to human beings; with it one can reach the highest level of elevation.
Minyan Gal: “Diveikus Bo Yisborach” means a person’s emotional unification with God.
Zahavasdad: We don’t need to do the exact acts of separation which the Jews in Egypt did. I am just saying that there is a Torah [or at least Rabbinical] obligation to create a separation barrier between ourselves and Gentiles; and this obligation is not related to the individual ‘Harchokos’ which Chaza”l instituted in specific cases.
Anonymis: We can still be a light unto the nations even if we preserve our physical separation. We definitely need to interact with Goyim in order for us to make a parnassah. When we interact with them finely and honestly, then we are being a light unto the nations. So too, when we visibly lead our lives spiritually and with deeper meaning, then we are also a light onto the nations. We don’t need to create new scientific inventions for us to be light onto the nations. Our ultimate purpose is to serve God and make Him happy, and not to just be light unto the nations.
The concept of separation in the Torah is clearly in order to connect with Hashem and not just a preventive measure against assimilation.
We see the Torah uses this concept of separation not only for separation from Gentiles, but also in the Bais Hamikdash when separating Kohanim from Yisroelim etc. The Kohanim had to be separated in designated areas in order for them to become ‘Kosher’ for worship.
Additionally, we recite every Motzei Shabbos “Hamavdil bein Kodesh L’chol, Bain Yisroel L’amim”, meaning that the same way for “Kodesh/holiness” to rest/dwell on a given place/day there must precede a designated separation for it; so too God ‘separated’ Israel from Gentiles in order for them to become holy through connection with Him.
Gavra: The MO philosophy disregards Hergesh/feelings altogether. Emotions are the core of every human being, without it a person has no drive/meaning in their life. To say that Judaism is identified solely by intelligence and not emotions, is like saying Judaism has no real meaning at all. God created intelligence in order to serve better one’s emotions [by giving one’s emotions deeper meaning].
Haleivi: Itchsrulik clearly differentiated between MO and Chareidim, that MO believe the goal of separation is to prevent assimilation, whereas Chareidim believe the goal of separation is to feel connected to Hashem. I then brought sources to prove the Chareidi point of view, that the purpose of creating a separation from Goyim is in order for Jews to become holy and connected to Hashem, and not to merely be one of the practical means to help prevent assimilation.
hello99: I agree with you that Litvish world believes in subjugating emotions to the intellect. However, the ultimate purpose of it all is to attain [through this subjugation] an elevation of emotions for God, and not the actual mastering of intelligence. As the Mesilas Yishorim states in the first chapter of his sefer, that the ultimate purpose of Judaism is “Deveikus Bo Yisborach”, which is in essence emotions not intelligence.
Itchsrulik: The Gemara in Megilla I quoted above indicates that the Torah concept of isolation is a central part of Judaism like the Chareidim believe. Hashem decreed for Klal Yisroel to become completely destroyed from this world for the mere sin of eating at Achashveirosh’s banquet. This can only be understood if the mitzvah of keeping a separation from Gentiles is in fact a central part of Judaism.
Like I explained above, that the idea is that Jews cannot preserve their feelings of connection with God unless they keep themselves emotionally separated from the Gentile world. Therefore since the Jews ate at Achashveirosh’s banquet and integrated into Gentile society, they subsequently lost their feelings of connection to Hashem; and once they felt emotionally disconnected from God, they caused that God likewise felt disconnected from the Jews and was therefore unable to save them from the ‘Kitrug’ of the Satan and Haman’s evil plans.
Ithchsrulik: You claim that MO believe that knowledge of Tena”ch is more important than the Mitzvah of separation from Gentiles. Let me explain why. Chareidim define their Judaism with their “Hergesh”/feelings, whereas MO defines their Judaism with their intelligence. This is why a Chareidi will tell you that separation from Goyim is a far more important in Judaism than learning Tena”ch, and MO will tell you mastering Tena”ch is far more important in Judaism than keeping a separation from Goyim.
May I ask; according to MO, is the purpose of Judaism only possible for people with capacity for intelligence? How about learning disabled people, were they placed on this world for no purpose, since they are not capable of attaining any knowledge? And women who are not obligated to learn Torah; is their role in Judaism inferior to that of men since they are less knowledgable of the Torah?
ItchSrulik: To summarize your point in your last post; the contrast between Chareidim and MO in regard to the Torah concept of separation is that Chareidim believe isolation is a worthy goal for itself in order to preserve the idea of ‘exceptionalism’; whereas MO believe the Torah concept of separation is only a measure to prevent assimilation but not a worthy goal for itself.
In my above post I brought three sources from the Torah/Gemara which mentions the requirement for Jews to keep a physical separation from gentiles:
The first source, the posuk in Parshas Balak (thanks for correcting me) “Hein Am L’vudud Yishkon” is describing the character of Jewish nation. This posuk would seem to infer that separation is a goal for itself worthy of praise, since Bilam wouldn’t define [and praise] the Jewish nation by their behavior of separation if this act of is merely a practical means of preventing assimilation and not a defining character of the nation.
The second source I brought from the Baal Hagadah “She’huyu Mitzuyanim Shum” also indicates that separation is a worthy goal for itself; the Mahar”al on the Hagaddah explains that Ge’ula/salvation was only possible by God once the Jews became in essence a separate entity from the Egyptian nation through their acts of separation; otherwise redeeming the Jewish nation would have been a practical impossibility even for God.
The last source which I brought from Mesechte Megillah, “Nehenu M’Si’udaso Shel Achashveirosh, also indicates that separation is a worthy goal for itself. God would not punish the Jews for merely violating the separation barrier without them committing any actual sins, if the purpose of separation was only a means to prevent real sins and assimilation. Only if we explain the concept of separation as a goal for itself, is it possible that God punished the Jews for this mere act of not having preserved within themselves this defining feature of separation.
Lastly, the fact that Hashem punished the Jews for attending the banquet of Achashveirosh, proves that the parameters of separation is not only defined by the prohibitions which Chaza”l enacted, since the Jews did not drink Yayin Nesech at this banquet.
The first source, the posuk in Parshas Balak (thanks for correcting me) “Hein Am L’vudud Yishkon” is describing the character of Jewish nation. This posuk seems to infer that separation is a goal for itself worthy of praise, since Bilam wouldn’t define the Jewish nation by their behavior of separation if this act of is merely a practical means of preventing assimilation and not a defining character of the nation. “Ma Tovu Ohalecha Yaakov” is definitely words of praise of the Jews for their modesty, so “Hein Am L’vudud Yishkon” is likewise words of praise of the Jews for accomplishing the feature of separation.
The second source which I brought, the words of the Baal Hagadah “She’huyu Mitzuyanim Shum” also indicates that the separation is worthy goal for itself. The Mahar”al on the Hagaddah explains that the Jews merited salvation precisely because through their acts of separation they became in essence a separate entity from the Egyptian nation. If the Jews would not have made themselves into separate entity through their acts of separation, then they would have remained in essence part and parcel of the Egyptian nation and “Ge’ula” would not have been possible.
The last source which I brought from Mesechte Megillah, “Nehenu M’Si’udaso Shel Achashveirosh, also indicates that separation is a worthy goal for itself. God would not punish the Jews for violating the separation barrier without actually committing any sins, if the purpose of separation is only to prevent future sins and assimilation. Only if the concept of separation is a goal for itself, is it possible that God harshly punished the Jews for not preserving this special feature of separation.
lastly, the fact that Hashem punished the Jews for attending the banquet of Achashveirosh, proves that the parameters of separation is not only defined through the prohibitions which Chaza”l enacted. The Jews did not drink Yayin Nesech at this banquet.
I’m discussing the value and purpose of the concept of separation/isolation. As to what extent the separation/isolation should be is a different discussion. IthchSrulik questioned the validity of the actual concept of isolation which the Charedim believe in.
Zahavasdad: I appreciate your imput, but I can only respond to ItchSrulik whom I’m debating with now. I can’t debate multiple people at once.
Msseeker: I’m ready to debate/discuss (however Sundays I’m not always available to respond).
Itchsrulik: Regarding your first issue: The value of isolation in the Chareidi community.
The Chareidim believe that physical separation from the secular world is a central point in Judaism. This concept has it’s origins from the Tena”ch and Gemara, as well as being the tradition of Klal Yisroel dating back to the times they accepted the Torah on Har Sinai.
1) The Possuk in Tehilim says: “Hein Am L’Vudud Yishkon U’Bagoyim Lo Yischashuv”, meaning that the Jewish nation dwells alone separated from all other nations of the world.
2) The Baal Hagaddah on Pesach states “Va’yihi Shum L’Goy”-Milamed Sh’huyu Yisroel Mitzuyanim Shum” meaning that the Jews guarded their physical separation from the Egyptians, as the Gemara explains that they wore unique clothes, had unique names, and spoke unique language. (The Mahar”l explains that for this merit they were redeemed from Egypt.)
3) The Gemara in Migilla explains that in the times of Mordechai and Esther, the reason why it was decreed from heaven that the Jews be destroyed from the world, was because “Nehenu M’Si’uduso Shel Achashveirosh” they participated in the banquet which Achashveirosh made. Not that they committed actual issurim there; but rather the mere participation alone was enough to cause on themselves the terrible decree.
So we see how the Torah stresses such importance for Jews to keep a physical barrier between themselves and the secular world. Charedim understand this concept of separation, that it is in order for Jews to internalize that they are a special nation who is connected to Hashem. If Jews would be integrated into Goyish society it would be very difficult for them to feel the truth of this central belief of Judaism that the Jewish people are indeed the chosen people by God to be forever unified with Him.
What would you consider the basic issue which should be put on the table when debating Charadi vs. Modern Orthodoxy?
cofeeaddict: I think Will Rogers is Mod-42 and then Mod-80 opened the thread for everyone.
Mikehall: Why can’t you just choose a candidate to represent your community, and then maybe we’ll begin a constructive debate. Guys, I think I’ve had enough of this; either someone from MO starts debating or I’m resigning.
Gavra: I apologize for my sharp tone. I respect your point of view; your posts are often very insightful.
Gavra: I think I should be debating with you. You as a representative of the MO community and I as representative of Charadi. I always being written sources from the Torah for proof of my point of view. You should likewise do the same. Let’s start.
Gavra: You definitely can’t be trusted to suggest a candidate for the Chareidi community as much as you claim you’re neutral. Here’s what I dug up from a conversation you had with me.
“I just don’t like the ignorance that has developed in the Yeshivish/Charaidi world.”
Posted 9 months ago
gavra_at_work
Member
Not that you (LMA) are ignorant (C’V), that is just the reason why I find myself defending the left more than the right.”
Gavra: I also wish to have a “clean” debate. You must agree that it’s only fair that a group picks a candidate who strongly identifies with them. Since the point of this debate is not to prove the other side wrong, but rather for each side to portray their own side in more positive light; therefore being very knowledgable of the Chareidi world is enough to qualify me for this debate. If after I get started I don’t satisfy the group I’m representing, then I can be replaced with someone else.
Gavra: I think you are the one who needs to define yourself. Can you make up your mind as to which community you belong to? Only people who clearly define themselves with a specific group have a right to choose a candidate for that group. I don’t think you have a right to choose a candidate for either group. Or maybe you can choose for the MO, since you constantly criticize the Chareidi community, and I haven’t yet read any posts from you criticizing the MO community.
I started the debate with a question to ItchSrulik: “What is your opinion of Ultra Orthodox brand of Judaism?” I was ready and willing to hear criticism of the Chareidi community. I haven’t yet gotten a response. All I get is personal attacks from GAW, and demands from him that I fully define myself before even starting the debate. Is this how a debate is supposed to start? Come on guys.
Mikehall: If the prohibition of internet use is one of the issues you have with Chareidi Judaism, then I will respond to that; but I can’t respond to your personal questions about myself.
Gavra: I don’t think its fair to quote me from other threads. Let’s start from scratch on a positive note. I’m eager to hear as much as I’m eager to talk. If you want to take over for ItcheSrulik, then Kol Hakovod; but I can’t debate multiple people at once.
Msseeker: I don’t want to define my own Chareidi outlook yet. I first want to discuss the issues which many in the MO community have with the Chareidi community. Once we are through the negativity, then we can discuss the positive elements of Chareidi Judaism.
Mod 80: I agree with you. Let’s start with basics, and later we can get more philosophical.
Gavra: I think the definition is very simple; either you identify yourself with the Charadi community, or you identify yourself with the Modern Orthodox community.
IthchSrulik [Feif Un, Charliehall]: The point of this debate is not for one side to win, but rather that each side should gain more insight into the other. Through better insight, we will both become less judgmental and more understandng of each other. I think we can both gain from this. Please participate.
Sholom IthchiSrulik,
It’s an honor for me to participate in a debate with you.
What is your opinion of Ultra Orthodox brand of Judaism?
Guys, I’m offended. I offered to be one of the debaters on UO team and nobody took up my offer. Am I underqualified? Feif un, let’s start and others can join in later.
Zahavasdad: As far as Loshon Hara is concerned, I don’t think hearing the reasoning of Rav Kook/Satmar Rav could be considered additional Loshon Hara, since everbody knows already their respective Shittos. If anything, hearing their reasoning may give one more understanding of their shittos and cause to be less judgmental of them.
Are you really concerned A Satmar Chosid will turn Zionist after reading a discussion on the internet? If the Chosid is really afraid of that, then he would not be on the internet to begin with, since the internet is full of information a sheltered Chosid would want to keep away from.
Zahavsdad: We are not trying to turn the Satmar chosid into a Zionist or vice versa; the point for such a discussion would be for someone neutral/unaffiliated to decide for him/herself, after hearing both sides of Rav Kook-Satmar Ravs’ arguments, which side seems more convincing to them. Also, if Rav Kook or Satmar Rav would be alive today and see how their respective communities deviated from what they originally intended for them to look like, they might also change their mind or at least make ammendments to their Shittos.
Zahavasdad: How about each side only bringing Torah sources from Chumash, Gemara, Midrash etc. to prove their point, and not quoting from their Rebbe or Rav. May I ask, is the point of the debate to prove the other side wrong, or is it to show why their side is right?
I wouldn’t mind being one of the debaters on UO side. Although I’m very opinionated and feel very strongly about my Hashkafa, I’m still try to be respectful to others. Maybe I can be nominated? I can only grow from getting more insight of other peoples outlooks, and also more clarity of my own outlook.
I respect Shadchanim for their tireless effort in trying to faciliate Shidduchim, despite being constantly harrassed and under appreciated.
Msseeker, that was very nice. I respect Chasidishe women (especially Satmar) for their deep commitment to Tznius; and Chasidishe men for their Shmiras H’einayim. I respect the Modern Orthodox Kehilla for their tolerance and good middos.
Mikehall: If you attended a Chareidi Yeshiva with me, I would never insult you about your different background. Let’s be honest, do you really believe an open philosophical debate on a public forum is considered insulting and hurtful?
Your posts in general are great, keep up the great work!
Anonimous: I’m sorry you had a bad experience in Chareidi Yeshivos. Any Chareidi who acts bad bain adam l’chaveiro is not a real Chareidi/Frum Jew.
Popa: Married people don’t need romantic songs to help enhance their relationship with Hashem; they have a spouse IRL that constantly helps their relationship with Hashem grow.
From analyzing your posts on other threads [ and this thread included], I can assert with confindence that you are in fact single.
Popa: My point is that listening to romantic songs does not help give more meaning to your relationship with Hashem, given that in reality you are really single. Marriage in real life can give a deeper dimension to your relationship with Hashem; but being single and listening to romantic songs is just self contradictory.
Shir Hashirim brings out the marriage relationship, since our personal relationship with Hashem [being single or married] is really in essence identical to a spiritual marriage relationship.
Popa: I don’t get what you’re saying (although I usually agree/respect your posts); how does understanding romantic realtionship help you understand better your relationship with God? Do you think a single man or woman can’t have a relationship with God?
Yitay: I didn’t say it was false; the two sides coincide with each other.
Yitayningwut: Thanks for the personal attacks. I don’t think a logical anaylasis needs historical evidence.
Popa: Get married and you’ll understand.
Popa: The only real unity between a man and wife is only through their spiritual side. Romance songs may be ok to listen to, but they do not elevate your feelings of closeness to Hashem. Popa, how could you understand the spirituality of marriage if you are not married?
Let’s be great parents to our children. Discipline only for the child’s sake not for your own honor. Compliment your children often, praise their accomplishments, and be tolerant of their shortcomings. Be tolerant of your spouse’s wrongdoings. Compliment your spouse often and express appreciation for her/him. Through being tolerant in our home, we will naturally become tolerant towards other people outside as well. With this merit we will bring Moshiach closer.
Mikehall: I apologize again. I definitely have no heart to make rifts between our communities. Yes, we all need to perfect ourselves; there are definitely real problems in the Chareidi community. I hope Moshiach will come soon and we will all merit to see the true Geula. I just wish that MO community would look more positively at the Chareidi community, and not perceive them as being backward and Old Shtetl type.