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Sam2 and rebdoniel – no, I really was not referring to him.
Just protesting the idea that “so-and-so is a Talmid chochom, so don’t be mevazeh”. Scholarship is only impressive in the right context.
42 – Are you my “modder” ?
Mod42 – I agree that’s prob. the popularity. I still think that overall it takes less talent.
Loyal Jew – Yes, we have to learn even if we don’t enjoy. But someone who doesn’t enjoy has a different level of chiyuv [As expounded on by the Ohr Samayach that I’m fond of quoting here.]
Deeper meaning of Dovid:
“Dal(ed)”, poor (humble), before, when an outcast, “v’dal”, and still the same humble (va’ani tola’as) after he was melech Yisrael.
Another sleepless night, Goq ?
Ok, ok, I’m sorry – “flaws” was the wrong term. I was just responding to the claim that girls should not give up on whats important to them because they’re desperate, so I pointed out that that was not the topic.
interjection – please face it, there is an objective side to beauty as well. And you know what – lets say you’re right, and its totally not necessary. But guys want it. But as I just wrote – its not WHAT they’re looking for. Greedy ? Maybe. Shallow ? Nope.
Why are you so sure, from your perspective as a girl, that you understand what does or does not work for the guys ?
PS – I love casting asperations on a “Talmid Chochom” who is “megaleh ponim b’torah”. I consider it a Kiddush Hashem.
Am not referring to anyone in particular. Just saying.
Or, rebdoniel, how about this one:
“Who gets to define what is Orthodox and what is not? Instead of attacking those with a different mehalech, we should unite around our common status as children of Jewish mothers, and strive to advance Jewish pride in a non-halachic manner. Am Yisrael Chai.
Go ahead, call “Orthodoxy” whatever you want. I’ll be frum.
Yes, I know I haven’t responded logically to anything you’ve said. Just venting, thanks.
Once again, a thread where almost no one is talking to each other, because of their assumption that they will be understood when using the word “yeshivish”.
Could be this is what the posts here mean, but I want to spell this out clearly.
We have no clue what G-d wants, and we cannot know such a thing, by definition – an issue with some parts of philosophy.
We (try to) know what it says the Torah – where He has expressed His wishes for us.
far east – How sad. You are a victim of the “one size fits all” attitude in learning. If soemone doesn’t find an interest in studying, thats something else. But for you enjoy studying, but not find gemara interesting, is terrible. If you would been allowed to learn according to your abilities – both the topic, and method, of learning that naturally appeals to you, it would be a whole different story. Everyone can enjoy learning, if only they actually focus on what type of learning they enjoy, and approach Torah as well from that angle.
learning … is not the only important part of judiasm
But it is the most important part. If someone has a thick head, then he’s not a learner. But if someone has a fine head, but doesn’t know how to apply it to Gemara (or halacha etc) in a way that he will be interested – nebach.
Yes, i read your posts. Like Sam2, I don’t really get it.
far east – I was making no such connection. I was making a connection between giving up the norms you grew up with, whatever they may be and whether they’re very important or not, and a lessening of yidishkeit. Of course a mature adult can give up these exteriors for his own reasons, such as the individuality you mentioned. I think its clear though, that a teenager who does so is more likely to be using it as a way of rebelling against what it represents to him.
What a nebach, he wears jeans – agreed, bad reaction.
What a nebach, he wears jeans, it looks like he’s trying to disassociate himself – valid reaction.
I think we agree here.
No, it is certainly not called bechira. It is actually the opposite – the process I described earlier.
You can convince yourself of anything. Because you want something, you convince yourself its good etc. Thats the process we’re supposed to fight. Bechira is asserting that which you know to be right, despite NOT wanting it.
This has nothing to do with the attraction that develops within a relationship, as you described from your friends. You do not logically convince yourself to be attracted to someone. It is as someone described earlier – was it you ? – that attraction is not based just on the physical, and so as the relationship develops, so do those feelings. It is because those feelings are intertwined with the emotional relationship, not because you convinve yourself of anything.
I’m glad you’re not desperate. Due to what goes on, I know plenty of girls who are, and it def. affects their decision process. And it doesn’t have to do with values – we’re talking about accepting “flaws” in the physical.
The point being made about halachah vs.something like jeans is of course true. But:
You think he wants to wear jeans ? Such a cheshek, he can’t hold himself back ? He wants something associated with the clothing, he wants to go against the norms of his upbringing.
If someone grew up with jeans (or whatever), perfectly fine. if they make a mature decision to begin dressing differently than they used to, but are not intending to lessen their connection to yiddishkeit, I can hear. But that is not relevant here.
a total lack of education concerning G-d
Interesting Yeshiva you went to 🙂
Education about G-d does not have to be learning Derech Hashem. It is learning His Torah, and His will. (Which includes Chumash, which sort of talks about Him a lot, too.)
True. But:
1. I have already indicated that I agree that the girls are not treated properly.
2. I know many girls who do say no often because of looks.
3. Boys care more. We’ve established that. So you can’t use some of those points to prove menschlichkeit.
4. We know the boys, for whatever reason, have the upper hand these days, so girls are often forced to be more realistic. Also – so confident the girls would act so much better if the tables were turned ? (I happen to think they would, but its something to think about.
1. No, not everyone can just make things up. There are very many terrible fantasy writers. Its a big talent to make up a new world, that readers will be drawn into.
A certain (pre-war) Adom Gadol criticized the slogan of a certain famous chareidi party because they were just throwing around “Hashem this, Hashem that”. We even use the term “Yiras Shamayim”, not “Yiras Hashem”. One’s relationship with Hakadosh Baruch Hu should be intensely personal, and therefore more private.
I keep trying to come up with a clearly-defined explanation for why i feel that the HP books don’t compare to many other great fantasy novels, but am not quite managing.
The clearest differenc is that she didn’t really create a new world, in the sense of new concepts etc. – all the details of magic are really old known ones, and she just wove them together (the only real exception that comes to mind are horcruxes). So what ? So maybe its a different escape: You don’t go into a magical world, she brings magic into your world. Hmn…
Yes, in terms of the halachah as well – k’derech malbush ot not, it is irrelevent whether it was 80 years ago.
enjoyed them many years ago, but def. couldn’t play trivia…
interjection – learning halacha is def. encouraged. You can certainly learn enough there, in a way everyone would be ok with, to become quite knowledgable, and not have to c”v be dependent on others for much of what you do.
Sam2 – not much to add, PBA did a fine job. I notice his last post went unanswered. It reminded me of the idea that a benoni between gedolim should hide what he does, and even in front of other benonim only do publically that which they will learn from. So to do something “all” frum women don’t do, and flaunt it publically, what does that say ?
Health – would you care to elaborate on the practical nafka mina of this “chiluk” of yours ? Its muttar in both cases, but the difference in source (which has the nafka mina by lishma) makes it a “bigger” ptur ? What does this mean ?
mikehall12382 -“I am a Zionist and proud of it. There is nothing anybody in this world could say to me that will change my mind, not even for a second.”
health – I am an ANTI-Zionist and proud of it. There is nothing anybody in this world could say to me that will change my mind, not even for a second.
No one can convince me – in other words my position is not built on logic, and therefore is not subject to debate.
Thanks for sharing your feelings, then. Do you like pizza ?
That is for certain, it is the way we are wired.
Where are you coming from ?! Funny, I always thought it was the other way around – you naturally have a feeling, and that influences your mind, something you have to try to resist if necessary.
I certainly am not looking for your approval. You said not to judge a book by its cover, I showed you that that saying is totally irrelevant, as it does not discuss priorities, but rather proper method of judgement.
Liveandlearn – where do you see girls saying no because of looks in a more menschliche way ?
2qwerty makes a fair point.
I am not being set up with anyone, I am happily married with kids.
You see, when it comes to a scientific question, we all see that there’s a balance. The condition exists, must be mindful, yet sometimes over-diagnosed etc.
g73 – The Alter’s (whole) method of chinuch was not to demand and point out, but to influence, and have the change come about by itself. Just saying. [Not going to get into the point of how cool they were in Slobodka, and whether that was tolerated or allowed.]
Oh Lord.
Reading a book is not undignified. Its a perfectly logical thing to do on the subway, and therefore fits the situation. And so does plasticware at work – I only said “at home” because thats what you said. Yes, you are right,as I’ve said before – no one was suggesting that you may only do actions in life which are suitable before the king. It was just being used as a barometer, to show that when you want to look dignified you wouldn’t do this. I don’t know if I agree, but I think its a valid viewpoint.
If mod42 meant davening, thats a whole different story. Halachah clearly dictates you dress respectfully – because then you ARE standing in front of the king. (Yes, more than usual – I know Hashem is everywhere, thank you very much.)
The assumption here is that one should always look dignified, as per his position in life (Jew, ben torah, whatever). [Maybe having to do with chitzoniyos me’orer hapnimius ?]
The key here is appropriate per situation. Plasticware at home makes sense. Period.
How do guys feel if they are rejected for their looks
Are the girls here trying to claim they don’t say no to boys regularly because of looks ?! (Or do i only know weird girls?)
[Actually, maybe not, girls are very good at convincing themselves that they really had a different reason… 🙂 ]
What ever happened to not judging a book by its cover??
But I assume I can judge a cover for itself ? And so if for whatever reason, I want a book WITH a cover, I am free to judge ?
Can we list known trolls ?
and having the entire worth of a person be dependent on his/her looks
No one said that. But why can’t there be a factor which is far from most important, but can make or break it, and can (let us just say for now) be decided before ?
Because … perceptions do change
I agree. Getting to know the person can change their attractiveness to you.
[To some degree, of course.]
Please tell us you had a book open when you wrote that, or I will have to seriously doubt the “real life” of the mods which is often asserted here.
OOM – I completely agree. But that’s not the way the argument is usually formulated. I usually hear how life is meant to be dealt with, don’t run away etc. That’s what I was addressing – the need to run away if feasible, and not be overconfident.
Your last point is very interesting, I would want to think about its ramifications before responding.
Sam2 -I would imagine that she’s not wearing it as a beged – more like wrapping herself in a blanket. [That’s just an attempt at a sevorah – never learnt those halachos.]
You are not presenting yourself to the world when you are showering. When you present yourself to the world, you should project yourself the way you you would look before a king.
When you shower, you also do so as if your in His presence – that just has different ramifications in that circumstance.
[The above is not my opinion – just my attempt to make sense of a previous comment.]
What does cancelling the expo have to do with the content of the speeches ?
No reactions?! When I’m purposefully being provacative (though honest) ? 🙁
Goq – I know what you mean. I don’t think there’s anything to it per se, but simply an association with the type of person who has the tendency to do that.
babygoose – yes, Torah is the lifeline of every man. It is his very life, his spiritual essence. This does not (necessarily) have any bearing on how many hours a day he learns, and whether he is involved in other activities.
interjection – slooow down.
I am in full agreement as to the demeaning nature of some of the requests made of the girls today. I “married off” sisters, I know what they go through, and I truly feel.
The fact remains, however, that women are often clueless about the way G-d made men. There have been countless posts saying things to the effect that the inside is what counts, and putting down those who actually care about the outside.
That is what I find ridiculous.
Telling us to date those we like for their inside, and then try your best to become attracted to them based on that – no, I am very sorry, you most assuredly do NOT get what men are.
[Of course, this is not only a mistake in this area. It is a basic lack of understanding about how G-d made people tick in general. I was simply sticking to the topic.]