Looking for extremes ?!

We have a definite halachic issue. We have some who feel, perfectly logically, a lack of clarity as to the issue being resolved with typical cleaning. Thus they resort to stronger measures.

Extremists ? I’d prefer to go with “yerei shamayim”.

“Its not an issue”.

“Its a major issue”.

and my favorite – “in any case they could not be mandatory”

No sources – and obviously in half of these quotes no knowledge, as they contradict each other – and we’re registering opinions, once again, about issues clearly discussed in the seforim.

Without replying to the actual points you are making, let me point out that you seems to me that you are confusing two topics.

The POINT of learning may be expressed as a connection to Hashem, as many seforim say.

The proper FORM of learning, you are attempting to prove with your quotes, may be al minas la’asos. That is how “l’ma’an” – “purpose” is being used in these rishonim. The way to learn is to learn “in order” to know what to do – but the mitzvah of learning was given “in order” to connect us to Hashem.

DY – I would have to assume that the OP was referring to what is quite common – people not being makpid on this halacha in general, not just while going out the door or to the bathroom.

“If that is the shadchan’s SOLE source of income (as it typically is with the other professionals whom you mentioned), I would agree. And if the shadchan spent as much time training to do his/her job as a musician, I might also agree with you.”

So if a musician is rich, you owe him less ? And if he’s a prodigy who spent minimal time training, you owe him less ? Do you give a broker a smaller percentage if they were matzliach to help you 1-2-3 ?

This is not Olam Habah. One almost never earns for their efforts, but for their results.

The point has been made above that Shadchanus is halachically recognized as being money owed, according to accepted standards. Your plumber also has a mitzvah to help you – I hope you don’t tell him that when he presents you with the bill.

Your feelings are commendable – but not valid when foisted on others, who want what is rightfully theirs.

And everything x2 for frimet. Any particular reason this is not an acceptable profession ?

Meiri says “baruch ba’al hamuznayim”, which I think means that while it was the reason, we cannot question why someone who does something doesn’t get the schar associated with it.

Interesting ohr zarua – implication seems to be that she herself didn’t know the true reason (which is interesting of itself – from the fact that they asked her it seems that Chazal assumed she was able to properly judge which of her actions bring a particular schar).

As to the actual association – O.Z. is saying that an important attribute of the Kohein Gadol was to be a Tahor (clearly) and a Tzanua (?)

more recently – R’ Chaim Volozhiner writes that the Gra began to make one at age twelve, but was told to stop.

OOM – they were billed the best two children’s authors of 20th century. by I don’t remember which publication.

JKR invented precious few concepts in her books. 95% are regular magic/myths etc that she took further. Animals, spells, etc – its cute and imaginative how she does it, but…

Dahl simply came up with brilliantly new ideas. In a fraction of the words, he creates a world that draws you in. And all the more vividly, because like a good author, he makes you a partner in the process, forces you to imagine with him, and doesn’t just feed it to you, like JKR.

Sam2 – presumably tal shel brocho (if i’m remembering the quote correctly)

Wolf – I am curious. Would you please tell us what yardstick you would agree to ? Not your preference, and not practical examples. Just a theoretical line of observance/type beyond which one should not mix their kids with, or not have to be concerned with insulting those excluded.

OK, I re-read your posts.

You agree we don’t have to know everything through logic. You question how one can be intellectually honest and not listen to other opinions which may contradict what he may believe, if logic trumps all.

This is precisely the point of the Rambam. Our decisions our all through our logic. But we VERY LOGICALLY understand that we very often overestimate our logical abilities, and so we curtail our own studies – according to the guidelines of Chazal, of course.

My other post wasn’t addressing you, but others who seemed to be going along this path. In any event:

I did not mean that there does not exist absolute truth. I meant that it is not the definition of truth we believe in. Something can be true, and not “absolute truth” in the usual sense.

Have you ever studied any work along the lines of, say, Nefesh haChaim ? The existence of this world is an (humanly) unsolvable paradox, for there cannot be any true existence except for G-d. A careful reading of these seforim show that they do not resolve this paradox, but show how we deal with each of these dual realities respectively. And the same for many other philosophical dilemmas.

Logic to understand that I have a proper reason to believe. Not logic as in understanding what I believe. As you quoted.

Obviously we process everything through our logic. The point being discussed here is the limits of our logic – for which I thought the Rambam I quoted was the relevant one.

So my daughter (primary) tells me her teacher writes your name on the board if you misbehave, and then of course all the kids laugh at you (though behind teacher’s back, of course),and you have to behave well for her to take it off.

I’m not sure about this one. Don’t like, but don’t know if it crosses the line…

A response ?

Ok. Not ok. Your still a fool.

Anything ?

apushatayid – yeah well, we all agree about that, no one waas talking about that. We were discussing the idea of the boy seeing a picture first.

So you’re equating the picture problem with a boy getting a farher ? So if they’d be asking for the girls transcript, it would be just as “demeaning” ? So your problem is that they have to prove themselves ? But we’ve spent the last few pages here discussing the role of looks in dating and marriage. So is it really the hashkafa here, or just pride… (Which might be an issue – I DO think its not nice. Its just a different issue altogether)

LIVEandLEARN – I’m not sure why I’m dignifying you with a response.

You know what, I won’t.

Rabbi – how did you miss the part of that ma’amer when he discusses how important it is to use the koach of litzanus in the right way?!

Why someone is religious is irrelevant. If you are, it means you believe in G-d, and therefore you CANNOT accept that for others its ok not to be religious. If you believe “a religious life is not for everyone”, then you’re not religious.

This has nothing to do with proof – its simply not helpful to tell a religious person to view it as ok if their child does not want to be religious.

This also does not mean you cannot still show unconditional love for your child. But yes – you are religious, so you do not accept their choice.

1. So if you want a girl who’s more than “not repulsive”, you’re too into looks ?

2. Where did you get that from ? I said its subjective, and so even if assured I want to see. If everyone says he’s good in learning, there’s not much doubt left. I said nothing about priorities.

3. You can be ugly, but still want looks (whether you’re realistic or not), and you are the quthority on what you like. But you can’t just claim to have the ability to judge someone’s learning.

Yes, you could have said, but you didn’t. So you are working with the assumption that they do. If so, your words have no meaning. You just made up an idea, with a non-existent nafka minah. There is no “higher” or “lower” on the list. Either they can do it, or not. Ssaying “its not AS much” without a nafka minah is senseless.

Talk about defensive!

You guys were talking hotels, I mentioned that people often rent private homes there, but added (the very relevant point, I think) that these homes are often pretty pricey to rent.

Sorry for any perceived, unintended negative connotations.

We don’t count up, we don’t count down.

We say “Today is forty days in/to the Omer”.

Which makes no sense – we should say “fortieth day”.

Hmn?

It’s bad enough that you speak L”H, but you try to cover it up with “Am not referring to anyone in particular. Just saying.” Your denial of your L”H makes it that much harder for you to do teshuva.

And now you can do tshuva for saying Lashon Horah ’bout me. But its ok, I really don’t care.

I am only slightly familiar with this movement, and not at all with the person in question. I was commenting on the person’s status as a “Talmid Chochom” being irrelevant. But you can believe whatever you want.

apushatayid – First, no comparison, beauty is much more subjective. Plus I could say “and what makes him an authority to judge my learning”.

But actually – I do think yeshiva guys should be held much more accountable for their learning in regard to shidduchim.

Let me work backwards.

1. No, I don’t think it was arrogant. And the poster I was talking to seems to have been fine with it, no ? That’s because he himself realizes that it’s a shame. And prob. because I specified my feeling that it was the system that failed him, not his own fault. Even if you’d be right, and its not most important, it certainly is a very important thing, and so its nebach on someone who lacks it. Don’t see anything patronizing in what I wrote.

2. There are those who don’t enjoy intellectual discussions. They enjoy learning less. In addition, don’t know if you learn, but proper learning involves a lot of head-breaking before its starts getting clear and geshmak. For many, especially if you’re not good at it, this is not enjoyable.

I quoted R’ Meir Simchah. I imagine you’re quoting your stomach. Otherwise, please let me know. (I hope this sounds arrogant and patronizing.)

3. If something is the most fundamental way of getting to a desired goal, I have no problem calling it “the most important part”.