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What’s inappropriate is the education which left the OP needing to resort to this forum for answers to this question.
Ah. Now you begin to exlain.
Funny that a teacer who’d say that would then not be easily accessible ? Unless you’re specifically pursuing another…
That doesn’t necessarily mean putting down. Just explaining that even if you’re ok now, you’ll probably need them in future. But I guess that depends how its said.
You don’t have to have a problem. But this is not a friend. Do you think they’re lacking friends ? At the end of the day, their motivation is to help, not to widen their social circle.
Friendly conversation with a teacher isn’t going to create the kesher we’re discussing. So B”H no problem – but plenty of questions about important topics in life… things to ponder and learn…
And its not that practical for a teacher to have time for whatever number of students either… It’s like that by the boys, and by any mentor figure. They’re in high demand – you gotta be somewhat pushy.
Wow. I didn’t expect to get away with that. So either I was wrong about that, or no one read it.
Wow Popa. not sure where you’re going with this.
hodulashem –
You see, there are two types of working guys:
1. Fully machshiv learning, but has decided not to do so full time. This would be due to reasons of hashkafa, temperament, or inability. You’d be looking for the former, or some combination.
2. Those who’re pulled elsewhere. Other values are competing for their attention.
In today’s Yeshiva system, like it or not, you aren’t getting too many of the former. Even someone not so able or “made out for it” will likely pursue it for at least some time. (Perhaps due to societal expectations, perhaps unfortunately.) And to buck the system due to one’s personal hashkafos… not so common. Even in the Yeshivos that have catered in the past to college are turning more and more to the “right”.
So too some extent you’re right for questioning why the good capable boy isn’t in Beis Hamedrash. On the other hand, the boys you’re looking for do exist, so…
Practically: many girls I “know” in exactly your situation end up changing their tune somewhat, and marrying a boy who will learn “short term”. they just weren’t finding the seriousness and frumkeit elsewhere.
And you know what? Why weren’t they interested in that in the first place ? Of course it’s easier to start pre-med at 21 (or whatever). But hishtadlus is very grey, and not to be overdone. A couple of years of learning is very feasible for the majority of couples, and carries so many wonderful benefits, totally separate from the “learn as long as you can” attitude and lifestyle.
And I know MANY boys in shiduchim who are from the “learning camp”, with many of the ma’alos associated, who know that for whatever reason they won’t be learning long-term.
Firstly, its a bit ridiculous to be insulted regarding a factual assumption. If I was right, it would be due to logistics, not to them not wanting to learn. So I’m not sure you’re quite even-headed enough to make it worthwhile to have this conversation.
As to your claim – Number one, most young guys I know do not manage to have 9-5 jobs, without long commutes, and which don’t require time during other hours. Secondly, I don’t debate the existence of such guys, as I explicitly said. I do assert that its relatively not so common.
And let me reiterate – I’m not saying that makes them so terrible. Simply that they will usually have much less learning in their lives, with whatever effect one hypothesizes may come with.
Did you see in the OP that other places are doing something wrong ? Just something special there.
No question about it, for the average person (who don’t know from no maharal), davening longer than regular shows one thing, just like davening shorter than average usually means something else.
My observations from the boys system may not hold true by girls, but for what its worth…
No one wants to be used. A good teacher/Rebbe will make himself available for a student when approached, if they see that there is a sincere need. If you’ve approached one with a problem, or desire to discuss something, and been rebuffed, that’s no good. But you haven’t said that. Rather, you feel you may need them in the future. So you want to get to know one, so they’ll be available when necessary. I agree that you need that, but I’m sorry, I think its a disrespectful way to approach someone, and I think teachers sense that. Its fake and insincere. Not enough that you want the person to give time for a relationship clearly one-sided from the beginning. If they got the feeling that you really felt you’d grow from it, that would be incentive enough to give their time. But if you really don’t desire it at all, but want them at your service at some future time of need…
A more sincere approach would be to realize that while there may be times in the future when such a relationship will be crucial, it makes sense that its probably very beneficial now as well. So do some introspection, and realize in which areas in your life you can benefit from guidance. You sound like a mature enough teenager to realize that having the perspective of an older person you respect is always helpful, not just in times of crisis. Then you can sincerely approach them and initiate a discussion, and they’ll hopefully be open to it.
It is clear from the girls posting here that they have difficulty finding these type of boys. And to blame that totally (or even mostly) on the shadchanim is, I think, a bit silly.
So it seems that a large percentage of these bots are NOT the same as learning boys, in more areas than just how many hours they learn.
Do the majority of working people, especially in today’s job market, actually manage to put in large amounts of time learning, as these posters portray ? Its usually just not possible. And I’m not hiding in Lakewood somewhere, but am very familiar with working communities. Are the shuls in such communities bursting on Sundays ? Some. Not most. And yes, I know those guys who amazingly manage. I’m not talking about them.
The fact that there may be many full-time learners who are not actually learning full time, and may have many other negatives, does not preclude the association between one who wants to dedicate (much of) his life to learning and higher level of frumkeit. It is quite a logical association, in terms of percentages, when eliminating the explicitly “bad guys” from both groups.
No one is going to post here that they respect learning guys that don’t have midos. So lets discuss just learners vs. workers who are good guys.
Give me a full time learner who actually does put in those hours, and is not a write-off of a person, and you have very good chances of someone who is very medakdek in halacha (I’m talking about awareness, not chumros), runs a house where ruchniyus is stressed, etc. Give me a good guy who’s working from a young age, and the possibility of his “home” looking significantly different in terms of more secular etc is quite larger.
I post this keeping in mind the many posters here who are clearly working, and display both Midos and Torah knowledge. I’m obviously talking percentages.
Also – would people stop posting about their middle-aged husbands and fathers. The world has changed, like it or not. Different situation, different challenges. I’m not talking right or wrong – just what goes on, based on what our system produces.
OK, that’s all for now. You can all go ahead and sputter with indignation. And go on about my bad midos for saying that. Because, by the way, that seems to be the go-to accusation whenever anyone utters a positive word about learning guys.
That’s not fair. This whole thing started with your assertion that to an extent (to kids) a couple’s affection should be clear. Which means you’re referring to things either done exclusively by couples, or at least that take on different “flavor” as such. If all you meant was mutual affection similar to other close relationships, I misunderstood. But hey – laughing and giggling (which I think you mentioned) between couples is usually pretty distinct from regular people having a good time together. And if thats not what you meant, then like I said, I agree.
One factor is simply that he describes things pretty honestly. And that, perhaps unfortunately, is often very humorous.
Rejected as in being unacceptable for someone today to hold that way ? Yes, but clearly that would be in an area where psak pertains, which is being claimed doesn’t apply here. If anything, it should be clear here that our mesorah has accepted these concepts.
What’s wrong with praising the davening in a particular shul ?
And if you’re problem is with the hilchos lashon hora pertaining to discussing individual people/places/etc because you’re inviting negative comments as well, well then you’ve shut down a large percentage of the threads here.
Ha-ha.
Obviously its showing affection between husband and wife which is pritzus. You want to say that showing affection in non-physical way is not ? Could be. Just my impression is that its the show of affection that’s the problem, not the act itself. As I mentioned earlier I heard from a (very-famously machmir) posek. I’d have to look up the lashonos in halacha that made me think so.
Kinnos and selichos used to feel like forever. Now it doesn’t.
Even Yom Kippur is starting to speed up on me.
OK. But it doesn’t answer my question at all:
If its inherently wrong to display affection, why only in a physical manner ?
If you are maskim to his article this week (which I did not read), then you’re maskim to last weeks, and the week before’s, etc, and probably to all future ones as well. They all say the same thing.
Much more interesting to read the roundtable, and not be maskim.
Saying that length is related to being proper does not mean the longer the better.
How long is too long ? If I showed you that in Halacha a half hour is considered normal/average for weekday pesuka d’zimra, what would you say ?
DY – If I understand you correctly, I entirely agree.
And if so, like in any sugya, I go with my svara, not really thinking I’ve decided the issue. In which case it doesn’t make sense to believe in one stance in the classical sense of the word. Which is all I was saying.
No. They may thoroughly disagree, and may be logically incompatible, but to us they’re not “disproven”.
The Ramban in intro to milchamos writes briefly how machlokes in Gemara is NOT about absolutely disproving the other opinion. I’ve heard and read from great people about this, and they seem to treat it as a very important foundation for understanding Talmudic debate.
Certainly its different.
The question is, if its done in a manner clearly affectionate – not merely respectful and caring – why is that ok ? It does not seem to me to be integrally different, just a question of degree.
I have heard from a huge Talmid Chochom and posek (not mine!) that such things are assur. You wouldn’t believe the examples he gave. I doubt, however, that too many poskim would go as far as he did, and so am not sure where one draws a reasonable line. I don’t think you can just go with your distinction with no source.
DY – Based on what I wrote earlier, I’m not sure I agree. Depends what you mean by “believe”. I think RSG’s right, therefore my understanding tells me it doesn’t exist, fine. I don’t believe, i.e. I reject the possibility, not fine.
Same as in Halachah. I have twenty proofs against a rishon, I pasken against him – but do I say “its wrong” ? We even say a pshat in a Rambam, despite knowing that it was not even his intent!
Its just more difficult to deal with the idea when it comes to things we consider “fact” – true or false. I think that just means we approach halachic ideas as so abstract, so we’re ok with “anything goes”.
Yeah, sort of.
This would be my preferred phraseology, once you’re “asking”: I have logical reason (Talmudic-based) to prefer the approach which rejects the concept of gilgulim. However, I am cognizant of the fact that the majority of classical sources accept this idea, and so I cannot say that I have an inherent problem with the concept.
Its not disrespectful to any other source to agree, for whatever reason, with R’ Sadya.
It really is foolish, I believe, to think you can reject the mainstream of Jewish thought.
Reminds me of an incident recently where someone referenced a Kuzari. I said, wait a minute, Rashi, Rambam, Ramban and probably many others say differently ? So the fellow says, yes, the Kuzari shows how they’re wrong. Huh ?
I hear the Kuzari’s position ? Fine. I therefore reject the position of these Rishonim ? No. We have a machlokes rishonim. We consider them two mehalchim which to us (barring psak, when relevant) are both Torah, and deserve our study and respect.
Laughing when someone falls is a natural, instinctive human reaction. You can ask a psychologist for his explanation, or a look at relevant Torah sources for ours, but it does NOT show that a person is callous.
Making someone feel foolish for telling a lame joke, however, certainly does.
I am not planning on debating the subject of which topics of “agada” are subject to Halachic decision.
My point is that leaning to one side of an issue due to logical reasoning and proofs from the sugya have no relation to “deciding” how one “holds” based on their “belief”.
I can say that based on whatever proof or svara I “hold” like R’ Sadya (still presumptuous, but all right). But to therefore say “I don’t believe in gilgulim” is not the same thing.
They’re at least closely related.
You can’t just decide to “hold like him”. A concept discussed by the mainstream seforim cannot be waved away.
When you lack a belief in something discussed by “everyone”, quoting a source for your position does not justify it. It may be a legitimate shita, but not accepting the plausability of the mainstream opinion is not an option. We do not have the ability to pick sides in such cases.
Mainly, I think DY is right – there is obviously a point to praising a niftar: hesped.
But also: As far as the personal loss to families and friends, you are probably right. And yes, we should all try to feel another’s loss personally. But why isn’t the loss of a talented individual a greater tragedy for the community ? And its not limited to learning – I think you will just as easily find in such reports that the niftar was a great ba’al chesed etc.
ROB –
I would like to add that you may follow a posek despite his disagreeing with a majority, only if he’s YOUR posek.
If your posek is doing that all the time, change poskim.
I’m very glad for you that your posek allows your method. Oh wait – that’s right, you hasn’t been able to back up your position, the best you could do was reference the cRc site someone else posted, and doesn’t even agree with you fully.
So let us assume, for the purpose of this thread, that there are indeed two shittos regarding the matter (as opposed to well-accepted, mainstream thought vs. a small, perhaps misunderstood minority).
So either its a topic where you can claim to “hold by” one of the shittos, or its not.
Either way – asking “Do you believe” in something discussed by countless of our Seforim HaKedoshim is absolutely unacceptable.
Sorry, if I could take this thread one conversation back for just one post, please:
“I could certainly hear very good reasons why it is less appropriate to kiss in public than to smile and giggle at each other.”
“I’m sure you could. I can too. But its not something else, still a question of public affection, just boils down to a question of degree. So I’m not convinced.
“And of course there is a difference between what is appropriate to do in public and what is appropriate to do in your own home in front of your children. Why wouldn’t there be?”
I think this’s debatable too, and here I certainly think you’re creating a difference that’s too much to say on your own without a clear source in Halacha.
I don’t really feel like re-reading this entire thread, so I’ll just assume I’m not remembering correctly:
ROB, could you please refer me to the post where you quoted the authority who upheld your position, as opposed to the numerous ones I recall where you simply asserted your disbelief in the problem ?
“Please feel free to do whatever you feel comfortable with.”
No.
Please do whatever your previously designated LOR tells you to do.
The way frum Jews do.
Sometimes I wonder what is mine
Tolerance, or a rubber spine
I agree on one count – that the trend towards chumros has had very sad results. In this case – to force you to refuse to align yourself with the machmirim, to the extent that you would rather develop your own theories of reasonable halacha, to the exclusion of the sometimes inherently difficult aspects of halachah, even in cases where these “outlandish methods” are actually required.
You earlier stated that you are seeking the truth, yet when faced with the findings of experts, you choose to go with your own assumptions, and limited experience, of reality. Well.
Yes, exactly my point. I’m simply differentiating between this question, and the assumption made earlier that this is “the lesson to be learned” from the story.
I’ve looked (not exhaustively) through the meforshim and haven’t found…
Excellent! I love it. I guess I just have to go work on my savlanus and the such…
My question is why should the problem of displaying affection be limited to the physical. [If I can get a sense, from seeing a couple in public, that they are consumed by the strong feelings expressed in shir hashirim, than I think that’s not tzanua.] I was assuming they’re equally problematic, and therefore you’re back to being limited to care and respect.
And are you making a distinction between what one may do in front of others vs. in front of one’s children (as far as tznius is concerned) ?
Popa, my point was that you rejected being caring and respectful as being insufficient. I’m just not sure I get were they’re so different than non-physical affection. And if it is so different, why is that ok in public ?
Yes DY, but then you end up going in circles in endless posts.
Such as: “I consider cutting off the top reasonable” – after this whole thread, this is we are holding.
I didn’t – and don’t – see that in your post. You asked why this is the relevant lesson. Many have posted that its not, but being used as an example for this point. I asked how it can serve this purpose, and I don’t see anyone answering that yet.
Despite the attention given to any particular side, it is usually obvious that the matter is subject to debate. Therefore one asks his posek, and doesn’t care what “most” people are doing. What’s the issue ?
Statement above regarding cholov stam – generally, as in what people do – what does that show ? Generally, as in by most poskim ? Nope.
Why are we assuming that this was the (only) lesson Chazal learned from this story ? They were demonstrating how something considered minor could have drastic consequences, and simply used this story as illustration.
It does seem to be very unlikely and random outcome, and so am not sure how it really serves as a motivation to keep the halachah.
its not really normal to treat everything in the world as a matter of life or death, just because it could theoretically serve a s a catalyst for such.
I wouldn’t nitpick on an example, but it exactly illustrates my earlier point:
Halacha clearly defines which chametz you must get rid of. You must only check until the place the hand reaches. Further in would therefore be pointless – it is not considered a place where you ordinarily use, and so there is no chiyuv. It has nothing to do with Chazal exempting you from exerting yourself beyond the sensible. But until that spot, you might need to do “outlandish” methods of ensuring it is chometz free.
Your other example of the matzah is much better. Yes, that is a means which you are not required to do. But not because it is outlandish – simply because we have clearly understood definitions in halachah which you can satisfy without it.
And so in this particular issue, you will need to illustrate that you can be confident that you got rid of the bugs to the extent that you are clearly not required to clean further, in order to label these methods as outlandish. And as DY is trying to tell you, speak to an expert in the field and you will see that this is not the case.
Gut Voch.
1. If you refer to these methods as “outlandish”, I have a hard time believing you truly validate the machmirim.
2. “Where do you draw the line”. Ok, valid question, but whats the answer ? An exhaustive check just can’t be mandatory, because its too outlandish? This is not a question of chumra, but of being certain of the validity of the checking method. We are not talking about being machmir on certain shitos, but about being sure, to the extent halacha requires, that you’ve avoided the problem. “Extremism” in this case might be the responsibility of all.
Yes, clearly there are ways. But I wonder (without knowing the halacha) why the problem with displaying affection would be limited to physical contact.
Apparently not, if you have me being inconsistent in my posts when I only posted once.
In any event, I join DY in fully accepting that you were misunderstood, and my comment as well was only directed towards our understanding of your position.
As I only posted once on this thread, and did not actually state a personal opinion on the debated issue, I think your last post demonstrates quite clearly how much logical thought, as opposed to rhetoric, you’ve put into this conversation.
Thought it was pretty clear –
As you are not advocating showing affection in a physical way, yet you say showing respect and caring does not suffice, I was merely wondering what, IYO, should be done to ensure that children see (which you feel is importnat) their parents mutual love
ok popa, sorry, not trying to disturb the thread. I actually didn’t quite understand why you brought that up in the first place.
That’s a great solution, but it depends on the speaker. If they speak fast, but just take time to cover the material, it won’t work. If its someone who speaks a bit slower and therefore his shiur takes longer, that really works. I do that for many speakers who I think speak to slowly, yet I like their material.