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It worked for the baalie gemara, it works for me.
You are seriously off your rocker, that’s all I can say. So Ravina and Rav Ashi just had the words of the gemara they recorded ?
How should bekius (at least your understanding) be taught ? You just sit and read! And use basic skills you already have. Iyun needs training. The only question you can have is if they give enough time. That we can debate.
To finish shas once while in yeshiva is not that impressive.
Do we have the same Shas ? If you learn (and even chazer) the daf for and hour or two day, would you be ready to be tested on Shas ? Once again, I spend my time among many extremely smart, talented Talmidei Chachamim, and the idea that finishing Shas with decent retention is not a big deal is simply laughable.
Which does leave us – as I agree – that everyone is capable of much more bekius knowledge, and it should be done.
when we see what five of the leading Roshei Yeshivos of their generations actually had to say on the matter.
And yet their lesser peers, who worship their every word, oddly enough did not change the way their yeshivos learn! And wait – in their OWN Yeshivos it’s not so much different. Hmn…
zahavasdad – here we go again.
Why do you assume that because the result was not to your liking, that the decision must have been wrong ?
Do we need to go thru the lists again, of Gedolim who were clearly aware of the true situation in Europe and still didn’t say to leave ?
R’ Shach would say over a story from… perhaps R’ Chaim, I don’t remember. Guy had a dream that he drowned while crossing a certain bridge. R’ Chaim told him to ignore it, as we pasken that we don’t listen to dreams [please: the psak is not the point]. He repeatedly had the dream, and he kept giving him the same pask. He traveled over that bridge… and drowned! Family came to R’ Chaim, obviously upset. He told them: My psak was correct, and I would do the same even after having this knowledge!
Sam2 – we know that in mitzrayim there was only one story of znus…
Why not as “Vayeida es ishto” (not quote) ? One who has real connection to Torah, not just knowledge, has “da’as” Torah.
That’s like the litvishe tshuvos who say you can change from Nusach Sefard to Ashkenaz but not the other way around.
For many years I’ve been making a point, and was recently gratified to find it in published letter by R’ Shimshon Pinkus.
He says that it is rare for a bachur to succeed by trying to work out of the yeshiva system.
And he says there’s really no reason to! Put aside the system of learning, its reasons and justifications. Any serious bachur can find enough time in his day for any seder he’d like – bekius, nach, halacha – without taking away from the yeshiva schedule. How long does it take to learn (and even chazer) daf yomi?!
So no one can blame their lack of knowledge on the system.
Certain Yeshivos encourage this, and very few discourage it.
The Maharal’s positions on learning, specifically about Tosafos, definitely deserve the proper respect and consideration. But they have mostly been ignored (i.e. disagreed with) by our gedloim and educators. And so to say that you personally agree with his point is fine, as with any position a person relates to. But to bring it up in a practical discussion and criticize others based on it is just silly.
Not quite sure what diyukim you’re talking about.
Trying to understand why each rishon/acharon had to use every step that he did and say each word that he did. This is the type of iyun that I believe is WAY overdone. This style of learning is very recent, only about 200 years old, and I don’t really believe it is emes. I have a very hard time believing the underlying assumption that the Rishonim are malachim* and every word they wrote contains a chidush.
1)Is analyzing the process by which someone reached their conclusion equal to believing that their every word contains a chiddush?
2)Sorry, but you don’t really know what you’re talking about. The methods of analyzing and understanding may have innovations, and so you won’t find the modern terminology in older seforim. But they are very often doing the same thing, using different language. On just about every page of Rishonim, besides logical questions and discussions, you will find discussion on why the Gemara needed certain steps to reach where they did, and interpretations based on nuances. And so in sifrei achronim about the rishonim. Either I’m just not understanding your references, or you just don’t know how to learn.
3)As there is so much iyun and understanding to be done evenwithout whatever diyukim you’re talking about, I don’t find your point relevant to your general issue with bekius and iyun. You think more bekius should be learned – that’s one thing. I happen to agree. But it’s another issue altogether.
Maybe we live in different universes. Just as an example that I know about – have you analyzed the marks that extremely smart, dedicated talmidei chachamim get on tests, such as Dirshu ? Sorry, but your average (and even above-average) person has a problem with long-term retention of large quantities of information. And when you spend time delving into and understanding something, you certainly retain the ideas much better.
Knowing the shakla v’tarya of a Gemara is barely even skimming a sugya. It is superficial to the extreme – as far as knowing the sugya is concerned. It is certainly worthwhile and necessary to have knowledge of many Gemaras and their shakla v’tarya. But as far as understanding goes – what you have after the rishonim and (even early) achronim are done with the sugya is often radically far from what you have after learning the daf on its own. So no, that’s not what I’d call ‘decently well’ for the point we’re discussing.
Finding fault with someone in a debate in an irrelevant point (such as grammar) is not exactly the sign of a strong position.
And is there any reason you are mocking the Ohr Zarua ? Perhaps because I’m actually showing you a Rishon who explicitly says that which you’d rather not believe ?
Either this thread will stay this dull, or it will get exciting and then be closed.
It’s no fun just hitting the “approve” button all day.
3) What do all the quotes about improper application of iyun skills have to do with this discussion?
4)Bekius ensures that you know at least everything decently well.
It certainly does not. It may be something you should do, and it may give you certin tools going forward, but a cursory reading of many complicated sugyos would not qualify for ‘decently well’.
5) Contrary to popular belief, bekius does not only have to consist of gemara and rashi. I also learn tosfos bekius as well as many other mefarshim and sefarim.
I don’t only read through popular novels in a few days. I also skim thru textbooks on rocket science in my spare time (with not much of a background in science). I find it very illuminating.
Yes, you can read thru a tosafos or other complicated seforim quickly, and glean the basic idea of whats being discussed. That’s not learning tosafos. For that you read kitzur piskei tosafos.
6)The problem with iyun is that it is much harder to retain the knowledge one acquires due to the difficulty of remembering every diyuk.
But that is hardly the point. Being medayek properly will lead to the proper understanding of the sugya – which you retain much better than randomly memorizing gemoros.
1)Rishonim tend to ask logical questions and questions based on other texts, NOT questions about why the gemara/other rishonim used word X.
So apparently you don’t learn rishonim.
Endless discussions in Gemara and rishonim center around questions of phraseology.
2) I have a very hard time believing the underlying assumption that the Rishonim are malachim* and every word they wrote contains a chidush. As far as I know, no rishonim thought that there predecessors wrote like this, and nor do rishonim think that the gemara writes like this.
The Ohr Zarua writes how every word of Rashi has meaning, and if one reads carefully they can see that many questions can be resolved by a single word of Rashi. Because, he explains- he wrote with Ruach hakodesh! (or something to the effect of ‘divinely inspired’ – don’t remember exact lashon).
And it goes without saying that regardless how we should learn the seforim, they certainly made a very big deal of diyukim.
When there is an intrinsic difference between the people – killing amalek, or someone chayav misah, as opposed to everyone else – then one has a sensitivity, one not. And if you feel bad about the killing, then you’re being ‘more sensitive’ than the Torah – precisely the problem by Shaul.
As opposed to our discussion, where there is no difference between the animals. The question is just WHEN. So if we have two identically blameless animals, and we kill one foe the mitzvah of being happy on Yom-tov, i have a problem seeing a sensitivity towards killing the other (for a useful purpose). Just a svara.
sorry, PAA – my bad. guess I was reading too fast, and got the impression that the various halachic concerns only were being debated.
As to the issue – you are right, we don’t generally have to eat meat. But I think that the fact that there exists a chiyuv to eat meat at all (bzman habayis for sure)- even if its only several times a year – demonstrates that there is no such sensitivity. The chiyuv as simcha, after all – so you HAVE to celebrate yom-tov by killing an animal, since it makes you happy, but other times it would very lofty of you to refrain from such an act – doesn’t make sense to me.
My point was similar to what PBA said – eating too much meat is a question of tayvah, and does not cause the act of killing to animal for food to become wrong.
Sam2 – I don’t follow, sorry – don’t see at all what this has to do with chumros. Being machmir in halacha is one thing; we are talking about having ‘more’ sensitivity than the Torah.
For shaos zemanios you just need to know what percentage of the day has passed (ok, that depends on when you start alos/netz and stop shkiah/tzeis), I would think that would be relatively simple.
And its clear in the gemara that they used these zmanim, referred to events occurring at specific hours of the day etc. so…
No problem with the thread going halachic, but as far as the OP is concerned, octopi did say that the point is to minimize death – and its seems the consensus of all present that that is a problematic hashkafa.
You’re not disagreeing that animals were created for us to enjoy (I assume you’re including eating, or that would be irrelevant), yet you want to minimize their deaths… don’t worry yet if your position is wrong, first figure it out
I imagine the din of “Hakol B’chsav myad Hashem Ulay Hiskil…” would severely limit many technological innovations which affect the actual structure – which means there would have to be a direct nevuah to include them. Which makes this discussion very theoretical.
As is any area of halacha, there isn’t as much black and white as people would believe. While learning, you may have a clear decision how to deal with many issues, but when a shailah is presented you need to make complicated decisions – because many factors interact, and because you need to be able to pick up from the shailah whats really involved – and that entails a broad knowledge of halacha. That’s why the concept of a posek for specific areas doesn’t make too much sense by men either – unless it means that he has a fine knowledge of halacha in general, and happens to ‘really’ know certain areas better.
And a great deal of the black and white issues which do exist should be known to a couple, with a minimal investment of studying time, from any of several excellent works available.
And why is there such a great need for the women to discuss halacha with a Rav, and can’t forward the majority of their shailos through their husbands ?
As with many threads, I can refrain from posting and suffice with simply following the discussion, because I see DY doing an admirable job of keeping it sensible and Torah-true.
Sounds here like there just aren’t too many chasidishe fellows posting on YWN. B”H!
Take money for learning ? How horrendous.
Take your average balebos, for example. He would NEVER take money for learning. He does it ‘cuz he’s supposed to, and would love to have more time for it. Which is why the local shuls are as packed on Sundays with balebatim as they are bein hazmanim with
bachurim, huh ?!
Zechariah 8:19
Tehilim 85:11
Some say that’s why we repeat the request for yiras shamayim – after receiving osher v’chavod, its a whole new ballgame !
Chazal say if you run from kavod, it will run after you. As quoted in certain seforim, clear that its not an observation, but a promise. Same ‘question’ applies.
Think its pretty clear that these things are tools that can be used either way.
DY – Does he have children who are continuing his stuff, or is this material he never published for some reason ?
Oops, missed yours, sorry!
I vote besalel’s as closest to the mark
If understood as some do (beautiful example would be R’ S.R.H.):
V’lo sasuru achrei … eineichem
Yes, as I said he doesn’t speak it out clearly, but its implied. You run away from kavod yourself, because you know its spiritually destructive, yet you give kavod to your friend. So that places a certain limit on kumocho as far as whats ‘good for him’.
Its a very intriguing question.
JF well said. Oh why do we not prepare singles for married life…
While its obviously wrong behavior for the kids, if parents see this and do nothing about it (except gripe to their friends about ‘kids these days’), then: 1)its their problem – its your decision if you want to be a doormat, 2) not to mention probably an effect of their own chinuch 🙂
Haleivi is doing a fine, although altogether too polite, job. But I’m bored, so I’ll chime in.
1. I’ve lost count on how many times you’ve switched between saying that mistakes in girsos happen, and that they weren’t careful (in the first place) in recording such stories. Are you sure you have a worked-out shita here, or are you just that desperate to give a modern, different, rationalistic approach to every Chazal possible
2. Putting aside the absurdness of your comparison, and of the general mehalchim of Rambam or Meiri, that’s not what he says there.
a)He admits that there actually is an effect due to the belief in them, as the Gemara says about one who is makpid.
b)The gemara isn’t saying something false, its saying that its a safe night (which is true), for the purpose of reassuring those who think there’s a problem, while it may in reality be an UNNECESSARY reason.
3. Sichas Talmidei Chachamim trichim limud. Just because something is said to serve as a mili d’bidichusa does not mean there isn’t what to learn from it.
1. EVERYONE has negiyos
2. That doesn’t absolve you of doing your best
3. Your responsibility for your child is different than that of a friend.
R’ Yisroel sort of says it towards the beginning of Michtav 30.
Rav Kook quotes him as saying such, and disagrees, don’t remember exact source.
“And I accept each one of their lifestyles and opinions even if it’s not mine”
this is not necessary (nor desirable) in order to reach
“and I get along great”
R’ Yisrael Salanter says clearly that you give someone what they want, despite it not being in their best interest spiritually, I believe his example is kavod. Others disagreed.
I always pose the OP’s question with the following example: You’re driving, and see someone, whose health requires exercise, walking. You know they’d want a ride. Do you offer ?
Aha! I’ve recently returned to the CR, and I KNEW LF was someone else from my previous stint, and was wondering how that was allowed.
DY or Sam2, could you weigh in here ? Is that called broken ? Was it ever really in a ‘defferent state’ ? I’m not liking that svara.
Without any insinuations about who is or is not ‘a gadol’, it is abundantly clear that while one cannot be great without being great in Torah, that alone does not serve as a determinant. There are countless examples of great people who were subservient to their Rebbeim, whom they considered to be great, despite a superiority in Torah knowledge and/or learning abilities.
I’m not going so much for the system of appointment by earlier recognized authority. I think, to use the previous analogy to the medical field, that you don’t need to be an expert to determine who the top guys are, just sufficiently knowledgeable. So a general consensus by ‘regular’ Rabbanaim/leaders would establish for me a guidelines as to who’s authority might be overriding.
Never had an issue with it … do I really have such great lungs ?
DY – if you give and the other doesn’t want to accept, machlokes, no ?
not to mention that its mutar today to look…
Those who run, run. And those who consider it Wolf have never run.
1)I didn’t read it that carefully, but I’m pretty sure there was no ban, but rather a strong condemnation. A ‘Ban’ takes on different meaning, and it shouldn’t be referred to as such if it wasn’t.
2)As far as I know, this letter was not spread outside of BMG. In which case it was simply Roshei Yeshiva telling their yeshiva their opinion – which is exactly what everyone here always advocates being the way to go about things.
Logician didn’t ‘take it that way’.
He opines that in many cases, when people claim they only want love between all people, they really have an issue that the various different shitos are important enough to divide us (usually finding that fault with those on the ‘right’).
I would assume that the question at the time of the Meraglim fits in the category we’re discussing here.
Ramban questions why Klal Yisroel were wrong, if the majority of the spies (Gedolim all) were against ? In one answer, he says that the two that were for were clearly greater. [and he factors in Hashem’s original promise]
Thus we see three rules:
1. We must listen.
2. We listen to majority.
3. A recognized individual who is greater overrules the consensus of the majority of Gedolim.
(And for both numbers 2 and 3, we must listen to the Charedi Gedolim today hands down. But that’s not the main point here)
Simcha – if you think they’re understanding something wrong in medicine, by all means let them know. If you don’t like their application – then your point is moot.
Aha-I knew it! ROB, you did not look up the Michtav M’eliyahu I requested. He is writing to someone asking precisely your question.
And are we communicating at all ? I wrote in the previous thread precisely what DY wrote here. Infallibility has NOTHING to do with this conversation. As I wrote there, we all heard krias haTorah this past week.
And it is quite clear to many what was going on, and the solution not at all clear. There are very clear statements that certain Gedlom advised against emigration to America DESPITE the obvious dangers in Europe.
Educated parents def. helps. But will never really deal with issue.
IMO, only thing that will really change things is getting Rebbeim on board, and having them talk to kids. Kids will always say that the parents don’t get it, too overprotective, and will use the halacha card. If Rebbeim, using strong language, told the young teens what and how they expect them to drink, that would make an impact.
Just my experience that when people say things like what you did, they’re not just looking for mutual personal respect, but are bothered by people differentiating based on hashkafos. Like is it really so important if he’s a Zionist, or Lubavitch, [just using common examples, nothing personal!] or any sect that people may disagree with – and while you should personally be able to get along with and love him, you may have a real problem with them, and that will def. come out a lot on a communal level. Like no, I don’t want to formally invite a certain group to a specific function, because I don’t recognize their way as legitimate – and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Not saying that’s what YOU meant.
DY – but the kids watching are generally not going to know about that info.
plg – My way differs from yours in two points:
1. Even if you don’t bring them into the house, I DAVKA want a little in someone else’s. Something that’s flat out wrong, I don’t believe in exposing a little. But something like this, if they do sometimes get, it will take the edge off it, won’t be this amazing forbidden thing that they’ll dream of.
2. You have to know yourself, but hey – life is this balancing act. Trust yourself a little! I bring it in, and only use when kids are sick, or my wife genuinely had a particularly hard day.
This is the problem with sarcastic posts. Oomis now has who to go after, as if that’s really what anyone here blieves.
Oomis – we all know that. Relax. And at the age when a bachur is dating, they are generally not under the watchful eyes of anyone. So that line of reasoning really doesn’t fly.
An argument often advanced, and one I never get.
Of course we should all love each other. But we are often divided in our beliefs, and ‘fight’ for what we consider to be the proper one. When done properly, there’s nothing wrong with that.
The fact that many individuals will go about that the wrong way does not mean that we should all drop our values/ideals/beliefs and just accept whatever goes.