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I only quote. He says that from China to the Western Islands, everyone agrees to a 7 day week. He also uses the universal counting by tens.
Kuzari (1,57) uses the widely accepted 7-day week to prove that we all have a common ancestor.
coffee addict – and R’ Dessler explains this to mean that he became a tzaddik in his own right, and did not become who he was merely as a result of being Avrohom’s son (otherwise he would just be a “ben tzaddik”, not a tzaddik)
far east – If that was your point, that’s fine, I was commenting on the relevance of your subjective opinion.
We could debate the criteria for being a “gadol”, but I don’t think there’s any point.
antikfira – don’t know who you are addressing, but…
You are absolutely wrong.
Instead of going into lengthy explanations, I ask you this question:
Ramchal wrote a letter describing the development of Kabbalah, how Hashem allowed it to be more and more revealed as it was appropriate for the generation. He writes that Rashbi was chosen to reveal some, then the Ari revealed the second third, and then he writes that for the last third “Hashem has chosen me”.
Hmn, I already see from other comments that people are seeing the point of the story differently…
ok Health, i saw it.
Even though besalel is right, and we’ve no clue what we’re talking about, I would point out the following:
1)Many other sources don’t seem to say this, one page earlier the Ta’amei HaMinhagim brings from R’ Noson Adler a pshat explaining the circumstances when a man comes back as a gilgul as a women, so its def. not so simple.
2)You’re point was, I believe, that she only “gets one chance”. If you read carefully, he says that a women’s din is only in the next world, meaning that there’s simply a different system, and gilgul happens not to be an option. That does not mean she’s done for.
My original point was that every Jew has a place in Klal Yisrael, and will never be lost – “bal yidach mimeni nidach”. [Kares etc. notwithstanding]. Gilgul was just an example, and the one used by the Chofetz Chaim I quoted.
soliek -It really is written well, I enjoyed.
Can I ask you a question about the content, really just interested in your opinion –
So what do you propose ? Dan l’chaf zchus is very nice, def. try to do so, but to maneuver through life you need to make assumptions. Must I allow all old people to be unreasonable because they might have alzheimers? (I guess in this story she could have been more patient, but that would be so irregardless of the outcome.)
It reminds me of all the articles you see these days about being tactful. Must we avoid all conversation because maybe one of the listeners has some negative experience with the topic ?
Wolf-
Really not up to your usual standard, the discussion was clearly about arbitrating disputes, not civil matters. You might actually be innocent on this one 🙂
far east – the point is very simply, that if calling someone a gadol is subjective, you agree that another may not view him as such, and so there is no point in telling someone not to call him a clown “because he is a gadol”.
I do know the Rabbi in question, and I am 100% convinced that if he were to hear you calling him a gadol he would burst out laughing.
OK toi, I get you, but that’s not how your post came across, and its not something to make light of.
Your comments, however, tend to be over the top. There is no need to be insulting, something you seem to indulge in quite often.
DOH – if you think its not so humiliating, we can debate that. The comments here were on the premise that it is. everything else you wrote, PBA already answered.
far east – yes, but as its subjective, perhaps someone else can call him a clown ?
Of course, that does not mean we should teach them about the details of our halachos…
2)R’ Moshe Feinstein writes that in our times we cannot afford to operate as much with tznius, we need to do the right thing publically for others to learn from us. (He’s talking about one’s children, but to a certain extent I think we can extrapolate to the general public.)
sorry besalel, but by adding your “morever”, you’ve entered this ridiculous debate 🙂
Health –
“Choshuve sefer” ain’t gonna do it for anyone here. Source please.
Source please
Toi – I’m glad no one close to you ever died from lung cancer. I hope reality will never force you to rethink your opinion.
“Calling a person a “gadol” is a subjective statement.”
And so what was the point in your calling him one ?
I wouldn’t want to argue about his stature. But starting and running a yeshiva, no matter how wonderfully one does so, does not a gadol make.
very interesting, if so the OP did misquote a bit
But I don’t think its all that relevant. The OP said that the ends don’t justify the means, and the fact that they consider it “not a first option”, while nice to hear, doesn’t really change things. In fact, i wonder – if its a last resort, that means they understand its effect on the kid. So they’re justified because they don’t have other discipline methods ? Or are they just agreeing that its really harsh, and therefore a last measure – in which case we’re back to square one.
And the main point here was not about those particular mechanchim. It has been made clear from many posts that this is a regular occurrence, and that the point is basically public humiliation. This is what’s being condemned.
(Well ok, PBA has a problem with mechanchim, but he has pretty much a problem with everyone, so…)
Besalel – I wonder how G-d feels about his “drek child”….
No Jew is lost. If necessary, there’s always the next gilgul (as pointed out by the Mishneh Berurah in Hilchos Yom Kippur).
And now we all believe in tznius, and live happily ever after
If I recall correctly, “SAT” is no longer an acronym, it now officially is just a word, because they are no longer able to sustain their claim that it really measures “scholastic aptitude”
Here we go again. Don’t know why I’m doing this.
“i would theoretically tell a student, privately and calmly, that if he can’t do his work as befits a third grader then i have no choice but to ask him to leave.”
DAVKA TO A LOWER CLASSROOM OR NOT ? IF SO, WHY ?
I think you don’t really know the reasoning behind what you do. This time you can go ahead and be offended.
Essy8 – As someone who is both a parent and in chinuch, I resent your implication that only teachers, and not “backseat ones”, can give a meaningful opinion on the matter.
Teachers have the advantage of dealing with a wide variety of children, and the classroom setting is different than other chinuch situations. Granted. However, as parents, we are all mechanchim, and out thoughts on chinuch matter very much. Add to that the fact that chinuch is an area where common sense is more of a factor than learned skills, and there is no reason to assume you’re random rebbe has a better grasp of chinuch than your random (thinking) parent.
OK, first – I am not a Rebbi in a classroom, but I am in the field of chinuch.
“this takes away the reinforcement he gets from his classmates and makes him do his work.” – and it does this better in a classroom with younger kids because……?
“a step more severe, which i’ve never had to do, is to put a kid in a lower class” – and yet other teachers do it regularly, you say. So once again, why is your individual experience relevant to the issue, if clearly many others do it differently ?
“i know they’re told that they can’t behave/do their work with their class so they’ll do it with the third grade. thats very different than being called a “baby”” – so you agree that such a scenario would be very wrong. That’s what we’re discussing. Hi there, welcome to this thread.
And there’s no reason to be offended – PBA was clearly referring to teachers who humiliate kids. If you feel you’re not one of them, good for you. Then again, you’re basing that on the kids reactions, which I’ve already responded to before.
As usual, we end up not debating an issue based on a given set of circumstances, but debating what actually occurred in a specific case. WHO CARES?
You might notice that the question in the paper took as a given that the boy would be very humiliated and demeaned. The answers were given with that presumption.
And I hope you know kids better than to judge the effect of a punishment based on their reactions. A kid who shows humiliation upon punishment usually is not the one regularly getting punished. The kid who’s a discipline issue will usually either act defiant, or just act cool with the whole thing – what’s going on inside, or how it will effect his outlook towards his rebbeim in general, is another story.
What else would I do ? So now the justification is the lack of alternative methods of discipline ?!
I prepared seriously, and did extremely well. There were other boys who took it with me, and without any special preparation – and they were smart but not very – got around 1200, def. quite above average for ny, but not ultra impressive. This was the Jan. after 12th grade.
And don’t believe what they say – you can def. prepare for and crack the SAT
essy8 – if its an oppurtunity to do quiet work, why did you call it a “last resort punishment” ? In many schools, the kids are specifically told “if you act like a baby go sit with them” and the like. If its clear in your school that that is not the point – which I highly doubt – then your experience is irrelevant to this discussion.
You see what PBA posted – I know many people who feel this way about their principals. Something wrong here.
Spending lavishly on weddings is not an american meshugas – it was always done. Spending lavishly on weddings, or anything else for that matter, when you can’t afford it – that’s new.
But of course this has been discussed extensively in the past. How do most threads eventually come back to the same few topics ?!
if that means what i think it means, i hereby, in spirit, post a reply that would get me permanently banned from the cr
well, undoubtedly some of them are. But I know some who seem quite intelligent, and still sprout some pretty stupid ideas, so..
If women get a vote, at least let it be an educated one. Voting while staying at home, and not having any grasp of the issues they’re voting for ? That will really help the country. [Actually, its basically what (almost) all of the men are doing anyways. But there’s democracy for you…]
PBA – I think these educators’ main issue is their tendency to generalize, in an area which is all about individuality.
And I think that has an effect on this topic too – they focus on these concepts in an abstract way, which can lead them to conclusions which they would realize are ridiculous if they thought out the scenario in a personal way.
And thank you.
AM – I would have to assume that anyone who teaches in a school that still allows hitting, also sends their kid to such a school, and therefore probably has his kids smacked by others.
The question about hitting has nothing to do with parental rights, but rather with the long term emotional effects, especially, or perhaps specifically, in our generation. If you don’t trust your child’s rebbe to discipline them, then take them out of his class – emotional abuse is still going strong in our schools, and personally I think that such abuse hurts your kids much more than a potch (especially in a system where potching is the norm).
R’ Wolbe points out that yelling at your kids can cause more damage than hitting them – ever yell at (your) kids ?
mraven – I didn’t read it – did they disagree with the emotional ramifications, or feel the results warrant it ?
Your child is not your property. Full Hilchos Bein Adam L’chaveiro apply to him. Embarrassing him in public is almost never justified.
Toi – yes, I grew up seeing this type of thing happen, not to me. It is abundantly clear that the feelings it engenders are absolutely not worth any possible short term gain.
And before you sarcastically call me an expert mechanech, I’ve heard an “expert’s expert” in chinuch refer to such punishments as retzichah.
I didn’t read it – did they disagree with the emotional ramifications, or feel the results warrant it ?
Your child is not your property. Full Hilchos Bein Adam L’chaveiro apply to him. Embarrassing him in public is almost never justified.
Toi – yes, I grew up seeing this type of thing happen, not to me. It is abundantly clear that the feelings it engenders are absolutely not worth any possible short term gain.
And before you sarcastically call me an expert mechanech, I’ve heard an “expert’s expert” in chinuch refer to such punishments as retzichah.
Derech – Pachad Yitzchok (R”H 7) discusses this paradox in depth, in its basic application – the middah of Yiras Cheit.
About your point – the feeling may be right, but what was being questioned here was whether this is the natural outgrowth of such feelings, or so far out as to be unrealistic and therefore indicate instability.
YIW – where are you? I was away for the weekend. I come today waiting to be mechuzek, and…….
Any Rav in NY today who is not accessible to give eitzos to women has no business being a Rav.
Rambam holds the color of the garment has to be the same as the non-techeles threads. This would be a problem if the techeles is not genuine.
I’m not saying that we pasken that way, just an example of something there is to lose out on…
How exactly are you asking for people to rate something “but no LH” ? If you consider an unfavorable opinion to be LH (debatable), then whats the point of asking ?
And once we’re on the subject – I believe the popularity of hashgachah pratis stories reveals a deep lack of emunah amongst us. The need to always see “the plane that would have crashed” means our emunah is so shaky that anything “bad” that happens throws it off. It means we have to see His goodness in front of eyes to believe it.
Hashgachah Protis stories do not prove anything anyways. When the plane doesn’t crash – we say wow. when you just make the plane, and it crashes, we say “who can understand the ways of Hashem”. We were doing fine explaining, suddenly we can’t understand! Not very empirical reasoning.
The point is, such stories are not evidence of anything. If you already believe, its a way of seeing Hashem’spresence in your life – and yes, you then have to be ready to take an equal lesson when the going gets rough.
Feif Un – I love it.
PBA – well said, as usual. Ramchal points out that the Gemara does not say that everything Hashem does is good, i.e. good right now. it says “L’tav avid” – for my eventual good.
yes, this is a popular email of late…
Does this scenario make you feel better ? What if G-d answered “I gave you a hard day so you could grow from it, try to work on your middos, emunah etc”, would that also be ok ? Or are we only accepting what comes are way cuz there’s some “unbelievable hashgachah protis story” lurking somewhere under the surface ? Maybe G-d knows what’s best for us even when the there’s no simple explanation (which we happened not to be aware of) ?
“unless it is keneged the torah”
yes, and basically 95% of the debates here center on what it is the torah holds about the topic….
AZ- I don’t disagree with the facts. But i believe boys marrying older girls will remain the minority, and 23 yr. old boys will continue to marry 22,21,20, and 19 yr old girls. Which leaves us with a substantial unclosed gap.
Perhaps I am simply unaware of some other measures possible – what exactly are you referring to ?