icemelter

@mods- thats just classic lubavitcher for you ; )
best defense-smear others, its been working wonders for them until now

we are getting tired of your constant barrage of nasty insults. If you would like to make a point, go ahead. But mind your tongue. You are doing more damage to your own cause this way.

@Neville ChaimBerlin- Im not claiming to be “the victim” thats not what this is about. Anyway playing the victim is to be seen by the general picture not this thread. My point was actually to get a serious answer, and an answer as to why their menorahs in 770 and other places werent always diagonal and some still arent. But as they do best when they dont have an answer they just kept repeating the same thing or ignoring what was pointed out.
Also its not just archaeology if the Ibn Ezra also viewed it as curved, and if even the Rambam wrote that his drawing was for illustrious purposes only. Besides did Rashi explicitly write that it wasnt like on titus arch?
And even after all if the Rambam and Rashi do hold that it was diagonal, those are pretty much the only sources known and probably there are other opinions. Chabad is very selective in who they follow so its basically just the Rambam. No other sources are valid.
And why do people learn things that happened on tisha b’av from josephus is that not a problem? Was it a reliable “Jewish” source?

Your right I but I try to stay away from chabad websites like a flame but sometimes I google things and itll lead me there or something will catch my eye. Also sometimes I am curious to check their take on certain news that happen in the Jewish world just to confirm and I am always disappointed.Besides its not just the chabad site its also people I know from the past who will call or come across, and also just random chabadnicks talking on the phone or to me which I have to deal with. But ya.
And if you noticed I am not some “misnaged” just hating chabad because they have different/strange minhagim than everyone else or anything.(Those are usually people who dont know chabad well and confuse them with the tzfatim or whatever) I have no problem with that(minhagim), it doesnt concern me and I love the Lubavitcher Rebbe. But when their minhagim get pushed on to everyone and try to prove everyone wrong, then it does start to concern me because I have to deal with it.
” There is unquestionably a Chabad “custom” to go around telling everyone that their menorahs are wrong for being curved”
-Its not just the Menorahs.
And you know what? Even though you claim I am ranting which is fine, all this info is out in the open on their website so you can easily see what I mean, and its just basic talk in crown heights and chabad. So im not just pointing out things that I made up.

@DaasYochid- Sorry. I dont know how familiar you are with the whole chabad/crown heights world. I on the other hand am very familiar so you would understand me very well if you knew. Anyone who knows their mentality close up will be singing the same song. I know noone is perfect but there are certain things that people just cannot stand anymore.
Besides I recently made the mistake of answering a call from a guy living in crown heights, and the first thing he starts of the conversation is bashing how certain people eat cholov stam, who do they think they are, theres only one rebbe, chabad is the best, everyone comes to chabad but chabad stay since they truly believe their ways and others are not decisive,chabad have a way of reaching holier levels than everyone else, chabad niggunim are the holiest, Mesilas Yesharim didnt really do it for him( since hes not sure if its chabad approved obviously)chabad this chabad that and so on until I had to just hang up.
So maybe you caught me in a stormy mood, but things I mention are from experience and reading on their website. Again, ones who have this experience know exactly what Im talking about. And they can have whatever minhagim they choose, but the arrogance that everyone has to agree with them is beyond my patience.
This is a barrier to achdus which noone else has to deal with until they come along.

Neville ChaimBerlin- Defending ones shittos doesnt have to entail arrogantly putting everyone else down who has differing opinions.
Besides I didnt attack them on my thread I simply put the question out there. I didnt ask anyone to put others down just because not everyone thinks like them. But the way they defend their views is always by putting others down and mocking.
There are many views and opinions on the Torah and others outside chabad are also entitled to have their own view.
-Chabad dont believe it was ever curved so no its not just a chabad thing either way.
And I still didnt get an answer on why they had used and still use menorahs which arent diagonal branches which Ive stated a number of times in almost every post.
Nor an answer on second Bayis since it wasnt built via miracle and apparently wasnt possible to make that shape which would hold up.
Besides im not the one who waged a war on “false menorahs”.
How come no other Yidden whether chassidish or litvish feel a need to shove their opinions in everyones face and try to prove everyone wrong? Every menorah lighting they have to point out about the straight branches.

@my own kind of jew- You make a good point regarding the fact that in a certain age it is more possible for technology to spread around the globe and for others to capitaize on it. Im just saying I get that technology didnt have to exist ever, but I would find it odd according to scientist theory of people in whatever form they were 400,000 years ago to not even get close to what we have today or had 100 years ago. I mean people always think to improve life conditions.
Even 5778 years is a lot of years to live without technology but there obviously are reasons from above why it only became available in very recent years and closer to the 6000 years.
And regarding clumsy technology relatively speaking, I dont think its only relative since lets face it even our basic stuff isnt flawless and you mention video calls and all, those are still far from perfection, bad quality and clumsy.

Another thing is I spoke to a lubavitcher recently he’s actually Bal teshuva so he’s usually only fed the things he says which are meant to make sense in his mind, and he says that he was by theohel and saw “poilisher” chassidim. He tells me “this proves that chabad is the best. Everyone else is non decisive in who they are”. ” How many lubavitxhers visit other rabbis or ohel.
I think that ignorant comment alone deserves no reply but I said the reason lubavitchers don’t go anywhere else is because they have no respect for others Rabbis or Rebbes, and even more so they disrespect other Rabbis outside of chabad.
So it’s basically a lose lose situation, if yidden visit chabad sites ohel/770 or learn tanya then chabadsters boast “see they are not decisive and are leaving their ways for chabad”
But if not then ” everyone hates chabad they won’t learn tanya or go to the ohel!”
You just can’t win

@ gaon- youre right there are different opinions but chabad doesn’t have an opinion because chabad is always right in whatever they claim. Only others have opinions.

@putdown- ya there isn’t anything wrong with saying that Titus menorah was wrong. But after all was it tituses menorah? Last time I checked I thought it belonged to us Yidden. And besides wouldn’t Titus want to have an accurate depiction of what he stole from the Beis Hamikdash? I mean thats practically like taking over an advanced city and depicting it on an arch to look like a small village. Why would you do that? Also if the menorah was on display would artist see a difference. The only reason you can claim it still isn’t accurate is if you claim that wasn’t the actual menorah used. But again there is so much other Jewish proof and we are talking about the Bais Sheini menorah which most agree was round branch since it wasn’t even possible to make it at an angle without a miracle. Even the first Menorah is clearly stated it was a miracle when Hashem told Moshe Rabbeinu to throw it in the fire since it was difficult to make.
The real question is why is it so difficult for you to admit there are other opinions outside of chabad and they might actually be right?

True there are other Gedoilim but you only mention the ones who fit with your chabad views. And for the record you pointed out untucked shirts and beards which is a chabad reference to meshichistim and you tried to invalidate them as a typical chabad mindset.
And thanks YWN mods! smh

You were also the first to attack me so maybe consider that before playing the victim card as is so accustomed to you guys.

Not sure why some people talking about “measuring age of the earth”, when really the question was if people according to scientists were around for so many years why then is technology not as advanced to affirm that?
Even if humans as we know it were around for 100,000 years then its funny how they would claim that it took up until the last 100 years (give or take) for “advanced” technology to show up.

So stop trying to prove the age of the earth thats not even the topic.

@putdownthegun-“I don’t think anyone here is interested in advocating for the theory of evolution.”
-Ya im pretty sure noone here is trying to defend a non-Torah theory, so its funny why you bring it up. We are just discussing the bizzare thought of humans around for hundreds of thousands and technology so weak relatively speaking. Thanks for your “frum” observation and insinuating that some Yidden here might be trying to defend theories.

@akuperma- From what I understood and from the arguments of the previous sages, it seems time was around even before the sun and moon.

@Put down the gun- SO your saying that Bayis Sheini they also managed to make a Menorah out of one piece of gold with diagonal branches which was impossible? Or did the Menorah from Bayis Rishon surive and they used that one?
The snakes is another issue. Also some say it might have been images of he kruvim. But in any case we dont hold by that since we hold that the base of the Menorah was on 3 legs or something like that.

@770- Some chabad light curved? Then why the firece holy war bashing everyones curved Menorahs? Besides Im not sure you are accurate in what you state since all the public Chabad Menorahs are diagonal with the exception of some like in D.C. where it is diagonal and then straight up. Almost looks like a curved Menora with a break in the middle, which again is hypocrititical on their behalf because if you preach one thing then stick to it.
And regarding “the video” its not just one video there are plenty of pictures. Besides you say the new one which looks like the Beis Hamikdash, which one? Didnt we already state the diagonal as Bayis RIshon and curved Bais Sheini? And if Chanukah took place in Bais Sheini,why not follow that version of the Menorah?
Also if the Rambam wrote a note regarding the drawing as for illustration/visual purposes only, why still attack everyone? And even if it was diagonal, most hold the second one was not and it was curved!

@akuperma- Kabbala? Just trying to understand how the scientists claim this earth to be so old when our technology proves otherwise in how “advanced” it is, or isnt. Not trying to actually figure out how long the earth has been around. Besides we go by 5778 years.

Yes Gaon but chabad fight a holy war against those “fake Memorahs” and they even had an article on their site a few years back with that title. Why do they insist that everyone is wrong and that the only Menorah was the straight branches? It’s funny though I visited one of their yeshivas in South Beach Miami and in the renovated zal or wherever it was there was an Aron kodesh with a metal Menorah shaped gate closed over it. That menorah had curved branches and someone I know who is lubavitch from London actually pointed it out to me since we had been discussing it earlier. We both just shrugged our shoulders in confusion.
So it’s funny how they criticize everyone when even in a chabad yeshiva they used that depiction.
Even in 770 by the chazan amud the menorah wasn’t always diagonal branches, there are pictures showing the menorah with 90 degree angled branches until it was changed.
Also why criticize everyones curved branch menorah and say that they are wrong and that they are using proof from a rasha who destroyed the Beis Hamikdash when we have so much other Jewish proof and it was likely used in the second Beis Hamikdash?!

So all the other sources of curved branches don’t count? Such as the minted coins by Mattisyahu, or the cave at bet shearim, or any other Jewish sources?

Since the first Menorah was by a Ness since it was made in the fire, and the second wasn’t possible to replicate as straight branches it was made curved branches. So why does chabad push the diagonal branches if the second bais was curved branches? There are images of ancient burial cave in Israel which a Menorah is carved into the wall and is curved branches which dates to times of the mishna. And many other images and info it’s on temple institute website. There was an article that chabad “fights fake menorah” meaning the one with curved branches. Why call it a take Menorah when there is so much proof otherwise including the coins minted by Mattisyahu haCohen? Surely he would’ve known how it looked. And again even if the original was straight branches, isn’t the more recent one closer to Chanukah times?

so if you say that ashkenazim might be a result of geirim, then really where does ashkenaz originate from? That strengthens the argument that originally everyoen was from middle east countries with sephardi traits and some of those sephardim intermarried or married geirim in europe and hence the ashkenazi people were born? Does that mean ashkenaz is just made up? Unless there were ashkenaz Jews living in europe at the same time as Avraham Avinu which wouldnt make sense since creation started in the middle east-Iraq/Gan Eden?

Gaon- I know at the end of the day it is better to cover the hair I am just bringing these examples where with nowadays luxurious appealing sheitels it is very questionable what is doing more good since the hair covering comes with a lot of side effects. A woman with a natural flat ponytail or a lavish “all men look at me” sheitel?

Mdd- I’m not sure where you get your info from, but most reform are actually ashkenaz. Just look at Hollywood or anyone famous who is Jewish they usually are ashkenaz and they aren’t religious. I am open minded but arguing that most sephardim are reform and ashkenaz have sin holds no ground. Ir simply sounds foolish especially since the reform movement started by ashkenaz and most non frum Jews in America are ashkenaz. And being non frum does not mean being reform. Reform actually believe it’s ok to drive to shul on shabbos. People who aren’t feum might so such a thing but they still don’t believe that it’s the derech it’s just they aren’t at that level yet. There’s a difference between doing something or believing that its the right way.

Also o don’t know why you keep saying sephardim violate tznius more than ashkenaz. I mean nowadays women dress slas they feel on both sides. And just because a woman wears a long layered beautiful sheitel and pushes a stroller doesn’t make it ok for her to wear a mini skirt. That’s just what I think. I may be wrong though.

Reform is an actual “hashkafa” so sephardim who “do whatever they want” arent necessarily reform they are just not frum. A person can be non religious but believe in the orthodox way. So I disagree completely.

Why do you mention wearing a sheitel is better than no sheitel at all? You say it as if the alternative to sheitel is nothing. The alternative is head covering. Besides with nowadays sheitels Im not too sure that they are better than walking around with uncovered hair. They are so long and with so much volume that most women cant even wear their hair like that naturally. Many sheitels really should be a Sheilas Rav with the ones being made today.
“Also, prancing around immodestly dressed is not okay either”.
-Umm what does that have to do with sephardim that goes for everyone?
“There never was intermarriage by frum Ashkenazim. By frei there was”.
-Isnt it obvious that a frum person wouldnt intermarry? I mean I get that there are people who fail but are they still considered “frum”? Thanks for stating the “non obvious”

And why are you dating everyone to the Beis Hamikdash which came like 3000 years after creation? Werent people and Yidden alive before that? After all I am asking about originally not from times of Beis Hamikdash.
Unless that proves there were ashkenazim even before the golus of the churban.