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They are GIANT in PR. Name me one other Hasidic sect who comes near them when it comes to promoting themselves in the media.
The Alter Rebbe said that Moshiach will be a Veltlicher (non-Chosid).
Yeah sure, and I am the King of England.
I believe I found – B”H – the place where I remember Lubavitch scholar Simon Jacobson discussing the issue that started this thread, and, as stated previously, he says that it is * not * to be understood as literally “a piece of G-d”.
In Episode 13 of his “Tanya Applied with Rabbi Simon Jacobson” (available at YouTube), posted a little over three months ago, at just after 19:45 he states “obviously we are not talking about a piece of G-d”.
(This is not an endorsement of learning Tanya, or his talks in general, just showing that even a leading Chabad Lubavitch scholar is in accord with what tiawd posted at the beginning of this thread on this point.
Reb Eliezer: “It says veosu li mikdash veshochanti besocham, create a holy tabernacle and I will rest among them. It does not say besocho, in it as Hashem is everywhere so He rests in each one of us.”
If that would be pshat, there would be no need for a mikdash for us to be told that. The same could be said pre mikdash. אלא מאי that is not pshat. The pshat is that through the mikdash, HKB”h will rest among Bnei Yisroel, since the mikdash is located among us.
It is no surprise that this type of heresy and confusion is emanating from Chabad Lubavitch as they are confused about other similar things as well, related to the distinction and boundaries between G-d, הקדוש ברוך הוא, and man.
For example, they claim that their Rebbe is Divinity in a body. רחמנא ליצלן, similar to claims of Notzrim re Yushka (JC). They also claim that their deceased Rebbe is Moshiach, despite him having passed away decades ago.
It is sad that such a group has adopted Xtian beliefs, but even sadder that some regular Jews have accepted them from Lubavitch. Just because someone has a long beard, that doesn’t mean they know what they are talking about.
Duvidf: “Embassies around the world have the legal status of their home country does that mean that there are now “Two” of the given country?
Does Shabbos being מעין עולם הבא mean there are two Olam Habas?”
The answer is very simple. In the case of the embassies, they may have a legal status, but are not called a cheilek * mamash * of the country whose offices they house. Are gardens in Israeli embassies abroad chayav in mitzvos hateluyos ba’aretz?
In the case of Shabbos, it is called *מעין* Olam Habo, meaning similar to Olam Habo, not literally Olam Habo.
Avira: “The zkan rosh yeshivos in America, Rav elya ber vachtfogel, is an open mekubal.”
R. Wachtfogel is not the zkan Roshei Yeshivos in America. That claim is way off. Off the bat I can think of multiple Roshei Yeshivos older than him.
שקר גמור
Reb Eliezer: “It says ויפח באפיו נשמת חיים and He (G-d) blew in his nose a living soul, מאן דנפח מדיליה נפח, whoever blows, blows from oneself. So, the soul had to come from Hashem.”
Based on the above, some Lubavitchers and others under their sway claim that a neshomo is a literal “piece of G-d” (ch”v). But if you think into it, it doesn’t add up.
If you blow up a balloon, is part of you in the balloon? No.
If a Lubavitcher blows up a balloon, is it a Lubavitcher balloon, with a literal piece of a Chabadsker, mamash, inside it?
Is anyone awake here?
Tiawd – Thanks for bringing up this very important topic(thanks also to Reb Eliezer and Avira for backing you up).
You are correct in what you say.
In fact, I recently heard a leading Lubavitcher scholar, Simon Jacobson, in a shiur he gave in Tanya on the radio, admit that it was not literal (this was maybe around six weeks ago. You might be able to find it on his website). Of course, less knowledgeable and sophisticated Lubavitchers might take issue with that, but they are not on the level of Jacobson.
It is unfortunate that some non-Lubavitchers have been infected by this misunderstanding too. Hey, if they already are taking things from Habad, let them at least get them from a scholar like Jacobson, rather than from an ignoramus.
“Rebbetzin”:
“Over the years countless gedolim, Rosh Yeshiva, Admorim, Rabbonim, poskim have come to farbrengen of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, yechidus, dollar line, kos shel bracha…”
Many of them were Hasidic, of Hasidic background, or roots, like Reb Menashe Klein.
Yes, there were some non-Hasidic who at times had some contact, but it was limited. Some of them didn’t fully realize how much Lubavitch had changed under the last Rebbe, and how times had changed in general. When they thought of Lubavitch, they thought of a different Lubavitch of the past, before his reign. One such personality, a renowned Rosh Yeshiva, a great man, was considered like a ‘Chofetz Chaim’, so perhaps he was not aware or didn’t give credence to reports of changes due to his pietistic way of life, and went to be menachem aveil after Rebbetzin C.M. passed away. Nevertheless, the Litvishe world in general, especially as time went by and Lubavitch became more and more openly messianic, distanced itself more and more from it. When Rav Schach ztvk”l zy”a came out against Lubavitch that also made a big impression on that world. It is important to see what date such things occurred, if they occurred at all, and to examine the details and circumstances closely. If a Rosh Yeshiva visited in the 1940’s or 1950’s, it does not mean that he would have necessarily done so at a later date.
As for the claim that Rav Moshe Feinstein z”l, zy”a, ‘sought counsel by visiting the late Rebbe for yechidus’, if you Google Rav Moshe Feinstein yechidus, the first result will lead you to an article that explains it. Basically it says that Rav Moshe was asked by someone he worked with to be mesader kiddushin for his wedding in Crown Heights, which he did. Since he was there, right next to to the late Lubavitcher Rebbe, afterward they met for a while, discussing matters of Klal. The Rebbe asked Rav Moshe a sheila, which Rav Moshe answered. To make it sound like it was yechidus, like when a Hasid visits his Rebbe, is incorrect. Rav Moshe was not a Hasid of the Rebbe, and he was also older than him.
Neville: “Chabad has organized PR because they have to. ”
There was a Rebbe (Skulener) who just passed away, who had a massive levaya, who lived with tznius, without a massive PR machine.
I think there were many more people at his levaya than there were at the levaya of the late Rebbe of Lubavitch.
Neville: “Chabad has organized PR because they have to. ”
They have to maintain such a massive PR operation? Who is forcing them to do so?
What do Chazal say about why the luchos harishonos were destroyed again?
Chossid: “But from where do you get the fact that the hired Rabbi Krinsky for PR?”
Yudel himself said something like that in a speech (“Reflections”) a few years ago to the Shluchos conference of 5774 (I tried to share the link earlier, but evidently the moderator didn’t let it through. It is in the beginning of the talk.)
Also, see the Wikipedia page of Reb Yudel (Yehudah Krinsky). There is more related info elsewhere online as well.
This (first of the thread) post is like the left wingers on liberal college campuses trying to ban conservative speakers and conservative speech there. Freedom of speech for them is one sided, for liberals. Those who (gasp) disagree with them are labeled as haters. Similarly here, posters such as this one are trying to label those who disagree with Lubavitch as “haters”. But that is not the Jewish way. Disagreeing with something is not the same as being a “hater”. If you disagree with your brother or cousin, does that mean that you hate them? The two should not be confused.
Freedom to post here is not for Lubavitchers only. Lubavitchers have plenty of their own websites online. Those that want a pure diet of Lubavitcher PR and propaganda, with no back and forth or dialogue, can go to such places.
This seems to be an attempt to squelch important discussion about Lubavitch because some Lubavitcher allegedly got offended by it.
Well, when you have Lubavitchers here, like “Rebbitzen” attacking others, and her posts are let through, if some people want to respond to them, it is only fair to allow refutations through as well.
“Rebbitzen”: “Lit – “Difference between Lubavitch and others? PR (Public Relations), publicity is one of the ikarim (fundamentals) of Lubavitch.”
Let me mirror back your words after I just pulled out of my mailbox a 12-page glossy colorful magazine with photoshopped pics of Gedolim and a Dial a Segulah 800 number:
Difference between Litvish and Yeshivish?
PR (Public Relations), publicity is one of the ikarim (fundamentals) of Litvish…Vaad HaTzedakas, Vadd HaAniyim, get a brocha, segul, will daven for you for anything and everything you want…dial 1-800-Give-Gelt..”
Cute response.
But inadequate and off the mark.
The booklets you refer to are the product of out of control fundraisers, and have been condemned by Litvishe gedolim. So they don’t represent the Litvishe community as a whole.
On the other hand,the Lubavitch PR machine was established and encouraged by your late Rebbe himself.
You are also conflating fundraising with PR in general.
The Chazon Ish, Steipler, etc., z”l didn’t hire a PR guy way back in the 1950’s as the late Rebbe hired Yudel then.
Obviously a great difference.
Difference between Lubavitch and others?
PR (Public Relations), publicity is one of the ikarim (fundamentals) of Lubavitch.
Lubavitch runs a giant PR operation.
Modern Lubavitch is a PR creation to a great degree.
Way back in the 1950’s Yudel Krinsky was hired by Lubavitch to have someone fluent in English on their staff. Over time he became the Lubavitcher PR guru, liaison to the NY Times, etc.
In recent years, Lubavitch has a disproportionate presence online, which it uses to promote itself, naturally.
Why do children seem happier than adults?
Ignorance is bliss. 🙂
Why do Hispanics seem happier than Whites?
Why do Blacks seem happier than Chinese?
lakewhut: “yytz no. You don’t know what a Litvak is.”
A Litvak is someone with a notarized birth certificate that he was born in a place like Kovno, Slabodka, Telshe, Ponevez, or Vilkomir. He must carry it with him at all times, or be subject to arrest and suspension of his Litvak priveleges and status by the Litvishe police. <sarcasm off>
Is that it? Is that why you claim there are not many Litvaks today?
Joseph: “It’s when it comes to the Litvish hamon am that this isn’t always the case, whereas the Chasidish hamon am generally always do.”
As Chazal say, פוק חזי מאי עמא דבר, go out and see what people are doing.
If you would stop looking at a screen for a while, and actually go out on the street in a Hasidic area like W’burg or B.P., you would see that your words are not correct. That is, if you are open to the Emes.
Anyone who wants to know the truth should do the same. Especially among younger Chasidim that is the case (yeshiva bochurim and kollel yungeleit could be somewhat different).
“The Chasidim are generally makpid to always wear a hat and jacket when outdoors. ”
Outdated stereotype.
There are many (especially younger) Chasidim nowadays that go around outside without hats and jackets.
Please update your records.
Why do people in tv commercials seem happy? Because the company sponsoring the commercial knows that people will be attracted to smiling people, who seem happy, and will be more likely to be convinced by them to do what they are promoting. They will buy the product being sold.
Does that mean that all the people in the commercials, on tv, in movies, in Hollywood, are actually happy? No!
Why do missionaries smile and make as if they are happy, and talk about love? Same reason, It is good for sales.
Why do salespeople in stores smile?
Why do followers of Dale Carnegie smile?
It is foolish to conclude however, based on such appearances, that those are the happy people in the world, who have the truth, who should be emulated.
Why do politicians seem happier before an election? Because they are taught to smile when campaigning.
Similarly, Chasidim are told to laugh, smile…
The question though is, how genuine are those expressions? I prefer honesty and real simcha over fake acts.
There are some Chasidim who think Litvaks are happier. 🙂
The Litvishe derech is Emes and yashrus.
I think most Litvaks are on that derech (some more than others, of course).
Halevai others would be too.
Joseph – some of your historical info is still incorrect. In the know, astute readers will notice that.
Yes, there has been some movement to Hasidism. However, the picture you are painting misses large numbers of Oberlander who have joined other segments of Klal Yisroel, such as Yeshivish, Litvish, regular Ashkenaz Shuls, as they voted with their feet and left when some Oberlander institutions came under Hasidic domination (e.g. R. Katz of Vien was/is Hasidic, not Oberlander who converted, and he violated agreement when he was hired to keep things as they were). In Williamsburg Vien there were like no old Vieners left, so R. Katz brought in Hasidim. It was not that old Vieners converted to Hasidism there.
Furthermore, even those Oberlander who allegedly became Hasidic often retained some Oberlander Ashkenaz identity and minhagim, so they did not totally leave where they came from. E.g. I think Dushinsky says bameh madlikin Friday night, people put on tefillin on Chol Hamoed, etc.
Joseph: “Lit: Rav Levovits also wore a shtreimal.”
The fact that you call him “Rav Levovits” shows that you are ignorant about him. Levovits (usually spelled Levovitz) is a Litvishe name. The Viener Rav was not Litvish.
R. Lebovits z”l kept minhagei Ashkenaz, such as wearing tefillin on Chol Hamoed openly.
Joseph: “Lit: Rav Levovits also wore a shtreimal…….”
Joseph – you don’t know what you are talking about. As they say, you are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.
A similar trajectory towards greater Chasidim could also be seen by Nitra, Kashau, Tzehlim, Krasna and Pupa.”
You are mixing together different groups. Each group has their own history. They do not march in lockstep.
Nitra is still Ashkenaz in main mosdos, such as Mt. Kisco old minyan, and Boro Park old Shul.
The others have a different history.
Joseph – “Oberland, i.e. the Chasam Sofer, etc., did not reject Chasidim. They were on very friendly terms and interactions with them even though they never joined the movement.”
It is true that they didn’t put Chasidus into cheirem there at that time, but by then the cheirem already had become history even in Lita, as the Czarist government had legalized Hasidism. That era had passed.
However, that doesn’t mean that Hisnagdus ended. It most definitely continued, just in different forms and ways.
The Chasam Sofer and those who followed him clearly rejected Chasidus (see teshuvos Chasam Sofer), even if they talked to its followers. If you don’t join a movement that wants you to join it, that means that you rejected it.
“And after the war large segments of Oberlander Yidden (i.e. Vien, Dushinsky, etc.) joined the Chasidic movement.”
Dushinsky became semi-Hasidic a long time ago, however, they still retain some Oberlander characteristics.
To say that Vien joined the Hasidic movement after the war is incorrect. R. Yonason Shteif, R. Ezriel Lebovits z”l, led an Ashkenaz kehillah.
The leader afterward, R. Katz, who is Hasidic background, who is still there, broke the condition(s) that they set with him when he was hired, put on a shtreimel and changed the nusach of their Williamsburg congregation to Sfard for the most part. But that is a relatively recent development, like within the last 10-15 years. However, other Vien branches stayed Ashkenaz (with exception of a small Flatbush branch). The changes by R. Katz aroused great controversy. By no means are all Vieners approving of them. Many of the Ashkenaz Vieners have given up on Vien it seems, and joined other kehillos.
“Rav Chaim of Volozhim was the prime student of the Gra, yet he did not sign the Cherem against chassidim! The LItvish of today follow the ways of Reb Chaim, yet the haters keep bringing up the Gra’s cherem (that Reb Chaim had no part of”
Rav Chaim Volozhin was a Misnaged. The Chasidim try to make up and sell a bobbeh mayseh in which Rav Chaim Volozhin differed with the GRA and refused to sign the cheirem, based on the fact that his signature is not on it. As if he was not a Misnaged.
So why didn’t Rav Chaim Volozhin sign it?
A few reasons are given, see sefer Hagaon by Rav Dov Eliach shlita.
For example,
1) The cheirem was put out by large kehillos, such as Vilna, Brisk….R. Chaim was in a small rural town, Volozhin, so he was not part of it. It wasn’t like a heter meah rabbonim, when people might go around to get signatures from all over. Also, in the old days travel and communication were much more difficult than they are today.
2) R. Chaim Volozhin didn’t want to sign along with his Rebbe, that could be seen as disrespectful, as if he was on par with him.
Later on, the government of Czarist Russia legalized Hasidism, so the cheirem could not be enforced.
Re Litvaks and beards –
Yes, in some yeshivas there was shaving. But in others were more open to beards, for example, in the Novhardok yeshivas. Novhardok had a giant network of yeshivos.
The Litvishe way is not just Slabodka.
Of course, the war hit Novhardok hard and it was decimated, so it is less known today.
Anyway, when looking at such things we should know the context, e.g. terrible anti-semitism and mocking of frum people at that time.
“Many (perhaps even close to a majority) who today call themselves Litvish are actually from Chasidish/heimish families. They come from Hungary, Poland, Ukraine, Austria, Czechoslovakia, etc., where their grandfathers or great-grandfathers were Chasidim or Oberlander.”
1) The population (Jewish and general) and land area of of modern Lithuania is a lot smaller than that of Poland, where Hasidism was more dominant.
2) Oberlander are like Litvaks in that they both rejected the new Hasidic movement and stuck to old fashioned Yiddishkeit.
“why do all shuls (outside of Litvish Yeshos) NOT follow this Chazal and have a proper chazoras haShatz?!”
Incorrect.
Sephardic/Eidot Hamizrach congregations at times do same or similar. I have seen it with my own eyes.
If you would take a break from your Litvak bashing hate agenda and look around a bit, you might see it yourself sometime.
Not all Litvish wear ties.
Does Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlita wear one? I don’t think so.
On the other hand, some Chasidim and Chasidishe Rebbes wear ties, particularly those of Ruzhin background. Look at the Boyaner Rebbe, Sadigura Rebbe, etc., for example, to this day, and see them wearing ties.
The GR”A did not wear a Borsalino fedora. The fedora wasn’t even invented until many years after the Gaon was niftar.