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Let’s put divorce aside. If someone comes from a more “violent culture”, thus resulting in more domestic violence than other communities, that in itself indicates less happier marriages. So domestic violence rates would be a good indicator even if you’re dismissive of divorce rates.
I feel an outpouring of joy and pride when I dance with my teddy bear in shul on S”T. So my “spiritual fulfillment” comes from dancing with my teddy bear.
A lamud vovnik.
Bad thread title if you want any relevant customers.
popa: Let me rework that: Domestic violence rates (and divorce rates to a slightly lesser extent) can provide a fairly good *comparative* guide to which communities have better successful marriage rates.
jf: Fulfilling ones spiritual duties.
I think divorce rates in fact are a good indicator of a communities rate of successful marriages. Another good indication is the domestic violence conviction rate reflected in the local court records or police blotter.
Is “The Baby-Sitters Club” still in business?
Vaguely titled threads are typically overlooked as readers have no idea if it’s interesting enough to open it.
Is the shaila any different if on Shabbos you’re in the same room as a goy with a phone that activates and lights up whenever it hears the word “call”, can you use the word call in his earshot?
What percent, if any at all, of the well known Litvishe yeshivos can you name that have an open Ezras Noshim easily allowing viewing of Krias HaTorah? (Forget the chasidishe – where they likely have a brick wall between the Ezras Noshim.)
jf: “Spiritual fulfillment” in Judaism is not based upon personal feelings.
Sam: I figured out late what kind of shul “balconies” you were referring to. The ones I’m used to seeing are almost fully enclosed and don’t have an opening allowing the women to peek into the men’s section unless it is deliberately opened during appropriate times. (Hence it is opened on S”T for the hakafos but closed between each hakafa at the beginning and closed for leining.) I did see the open kind you’re referring to a few times in, if I recall, old American shuls (on weekdays when there were no women in attendance, hence the lack of a major impression). I’ve not often seen them, though I’ve been around the block and seen quite a few Orthodox shuls, and the few I’ve seen seem to generally be old big shuls whose membership declined with shifting demographics and certainly are more ‘modern’ oriented congregations. So, yes,the kind you refer to would allow the ladies to see the open Torah and obviously those shuls have no objection to that. But the shuls with such open balconies are a very small percent of Orthodox shuls (counting by number of shuls or by number of congregants).
That’s your own boich svara. You’re trying to overrule the Rema for Ashkenazim.
ubiquitin: You are factually incorrect regarding your comments on the Rema’s shitta. The kaporos today with chickens is the same as what the Rema used and paskened on as being a Minhag Vasikin.
Physical attraction surely should not be the first qualification. Chazal gives us good advice in what to consider and that isn’t among their top advice. Middos is among the top ranking considerations. Putting attraction before middos is a recipe for disaster. The chasidim don’t focus a tremendous amount on attraction, they often have a one-tome besho and are engaged, and there marriages work out quite fine, some might even strongly argue better than average among the frum communities.
DY: Outside Lakewood hasn’t been stabilized by the young couples having the most new babies. A larger percentage of the young couples still move to Lakewood from elsewhere whereas only a smaller percentage of older couples move to Lakewood. Lakewood’s growth is still skewed towards the younger couples producing the larger number of little children. (And other places may still retain a sufficient percent of couples to keep their demographics steady compared to Lakewood’s boom.) So using Lakewood as the basis for a general trend will skew towards a different set of data than the overall world.
“It is precisely because I DO have Kovod HaTorah, Ahavas HaTorah and Ahavas Hashem that I’m not content to stand in a corner on Simchas Torah.”
The implication being the large majority of frum women who are not clamoring to dance like the men do on S”T and ARE content to do on S”T what Jewish women have been doing for over 1000 years, lack Kovod HaTorah, Ahavas HaTorah and Ahavas Hashem?
“Incidentally, how many people have attended a shul dinner honoring Mr and Mrs So and So and felt bored by the speeches? Does that mean one doesn’t, chas v’shalom, respect Mr and Mrs So and So?”
No. Unless they start advocating that THEY TOO should get speakers praising them from the podium, to reduce their boredom. Then it would indeed indicate a lack of respect.
The reason must have eluded the Rama and all the many others.
“Unless you think only people with 5 year old kids move to Lakewood, the fact that every year a whole bunch of new primary classes open, more than older grades, should tip you off as to what’s going on.”
I don’t think it is unreasonable to assume that young couples with no children are moving into Lakewood (and then having children) at a far greater pace than couples with 10, 15 or 18 year old children. Certainly there is a significantly heavier proportion of new Lakewood residents being newlyweds or otherwise younger couples than couples with older children moving into Lakewood from elsewhere.
jf02: The primary point I am making is simply that the mechitza is fully up in its regular position on Simchas Torah during leining and aliyos in the same position that the mechitza is up during davening and leining on any regular Shabbos. The mechitza is only lowered for the singing and dancing on S”T. (As an aside, I’ve only seen the type of mechitza-less/low-mechitza balcony that you’ve described in non-chareidi shuls.)
“Concerts and ball games are entertaining because there is a lot of sensory stimulation. I don’t feel the need to get up and “do” something because there is so much noise and excitement going on… most Siyum HaShas attendees don’t show up to be entertained.”
I hope none do. We attend the Siyum HaShas for Kovod HaTorah, Ahavas HaTorah and Ahavas Hashem. Certainly not to be “entertained”. And on the same token you should not be attending shul on Simchas Torah to be “entertained”. It should be for the same reasons I just outlined why we attend the Siyum HaShas.
Go to friends whose mother is a housewife.
And the Rama says chickens should be used for kaporos, as it is the Minhag Vasikin. So, apparently, the conclusion being Sefardim, per the Mechaber, should use money while Ashkenazim, per the Rama, should use chickens for kaporos.
Beautiful, the Goq, yasher koach.
Today I saw a major kiddush Hashem in shul when an elderly yid came to daven during a full house, all seats occupied, and no less than 6 yidden immediately got up to give him their seat. There was almost an argument between them as to who should have the “privilege” of giving him their seat!
Sam: Most frum shuls don’t have a balcony for the Ezras Noshim. Those that do that I know of are typically large yeshivos. And all the balconies that I know have close to ceiling-to-floor mechitzas on the balcony with blocking windows that can be opened and closed; and they are always closed any time there is davening or leining and aliyos going on. In fact the mechitzas (whether balcony or other) are closed between each hakafa when the Rov (or whomever) is saying the Uno Hashem… (Ozer Dalim… etc.) at the beginning of each hakafa just before the singing (when it is then reopened). This is how it is done in all the many shuls and yeshivos I’ve been in over many years on Simchas Torah.
“50% of baseball fans don’t get to come out onto the field with the ball players”
Aha! So it’s all about “It’s unfair! If the men get to do it, then the women should to.” If 50% can do it, then the other 50% should to. If the men don’t do it, then it’s okay if the women don’t.
So to a ballgame or concert you’d be happy to merely cheer along in the crowd. After all they don’t “discriminate”. If the concert would allow the men in the audience — and only the men — unto the stage with the singers, would that change alone make the concert more boring? No, but it would make it “unfair”. But a Simchas Torah event in shul is a bore? Even if the system was that only the rabbi(s) danced with the Torah (similar to a concert or ballgame where only the singers or ballplayers participate) and everyone else, men and women, just watched the rabbis dance with the Torah, it would be no less objectively boring to you than if all the men danced. (It could even be strongly argued it would be more boring for the women if only the rabbis danced and the entire shul of other men [including the women’s husbands and fathers] did not dance.) So in reality what bothers you is the discrimination.
So why would singers dancing on stage in a concert hall make you joyful yet ehliche yidden singing and dancing in shul with the Torah “doesn’t make me joyful”, as you said? The discrimination not the lack of participation.
The Siyum HaShas is a sellout every time with there not being sufficient seating for all wishing to attend, even though each cycle they keep renting out the newest largest available venue in the Tri-State area.
A bas talmid chochom who is a good cook with middos tovos.
Sam: I’ve been to more than a handful of shuls on Simchas Torah, and all of them close the Ezras Noshim prior to leining and Hagbah.
To those that think going to the Siyum HaShas is a bore I have nothing more to add other than that you are a very distinct minority in the frum community. (And that I can then see why you are bored to come to shul on S”T and watch the festivities. You might be more at home watching a ballgame rather than being in shul. Hey, wait, you’re only being a “spectator” at the ballgame — you must hate being behind the ballpark with a security partition there rather than playing ball – where all the action is. I guess reading a book is your cup of tea.)
You think it’s unfulfilling being a mere “spectator” at the Siyum HaShas, sitting in the bleachers watching the event, and that you’re not participating in the happiness?
And many supported it. And the Geonim preceded the Rishonim.
And to take DY’s last point to wit, the curtains to the Ezras Noshim are closed before they lein from the Torah (or hold it up for Hagbah).
CG: You missed the point. The point is that joy should emanate merely being in its presence. Sure we can’t do all we wish to do. I would love to spend my entire day in the Beis Medrash yet I don’t have that opportunity. But I certainly sing in joy seeing others do so.
gavra – Perhaps the solution is monetarily cost-free. But even if we assume that, that only addresses my last point while leaving all the other points outstanding.
Umm, jf02, I have had an occasion where I for whatever reason wasn’t able to participate in the dancing, and believe you me, my heart most certainly did sing with great joy from just being in the presence and watching the people dancing with the Torah HaKedosha.
BTW, why do thousands upon thousands of people who didn’t do Daf Yomi attend the Siyum HaShas considering that they hadn’t participated in its completion? It is a joyous celebration of Torah and everyone wants to attend the celebration even if they’re not directly up there saying hadran alach.
You think the Geonim, who came immediately after the Gemorah, just invented it on their own for fun?
“Yet, after 10 years, they still are not able to offer up one shred of actual data or evidence to support their claims beyond anecdotal evidence.”
Due to a lack of empirical or scientific surveys, no data exists to prove one way or the other.
That fact doesn’t demonstrate that the statistical figures that NASI claims is largely untrue. And if NASI IS largely correct, they cannot stand idly by and let the tragedy to continue to linger due to a lack of studies and provable data.
“When they started, many probably thought they intended to rally interest so that they could do such a study and obtain such data. But it has been a decade now, and still nothing? It doesn’t even seem that they are trying!”
Such a study that could withstand scientific scrutiny would likely cost in the high 6 or low 7 digits dollar figures. Who will pay for it? I’m sure everyone, on both sides of the issue, would love such a study. But there is no realistic opportunity of funding it.
And even if such a large financial donation could be secured, proving the problem would take that much resources away from actually correcting the problem. And potentially defeat the whole purpose of the study if it left the community unable to fund fixing the sources of the problem.
It demonstrably goes back at least as far as the Geonim. And the Geonim got it from earlier.
“Does anyone feel that perhaps we have an unrealistic view on what marriage is today because of all the exposure to the secular world?”
I feel that way.
“Do schools educate their students on what a true marriage is all about?”
I hope so.
Why would anyone characterize themselves as “loves to read”?! That’s a pretty silly way to characterize someone. Do we characterize others for “loves to play Mortal Kombat II”? Characterizing her as being married is much more relevant about her than any of that. Marriage is also much more relevant than characterizing someone for “having a good job”.
“The fact that they hold a Torah while doing so doesn’t make it more or less enjoyable.”
And herein remains a problem. Yes; emphatically yes! The heilige Torah – the Torah HaKedosha is being danced with in front of you. Such should make your heart sing in great joy! Just seeing it! People dancing with it! You should feel like running to it and heartily kissing it! Much much more than you would want to shake the hand of the singer at the concert or get his autograph.
“If some group decided to celebrate simchas torah by twiddling their thumbs do you think that people should enjoy watching it simply because they are twiddling their thumbs in celebration of the Torah?”
No, they’re not dancing WITH the TORAH!
“No because I enjoy watching and hearing the concert itself. Whereas I don’t enjoy watching a bunch of men dancing around in circles for three hours.”
And herein lies the problem. Like I advised someone earlier (despite subsequent protestations) “You should train yourself, even if it is difficult, to enjoy and treasure the day watching the menfolk dancing joyously with the Torah.”
If you enjoy it at a concert you certainly should enjoy it for the Torah.
I dunno where you associate, but everywhere I’ve been to the Ezras Noshim is packed with women and girls joyously watching and wonderfully observing the great joy permeating throughout the shul with all the dancing with the Torah and joyous singing.
Do you feel left out when going to a concert unless you can get onstage with the singer or do a duo with him?
IME, in the Chareidi/Jewish world adult women are very infrequently called girls, and it is wrong to call them that IMO.
About “older” singles, I think any age above the higher end of that particular communities general marriage age range qualifies for that term. A chosid might be called that by 22. For a yeshivish fellow that might be 25. For a member of the MO community it could be 28. And for a gentile it would be higher.
Somehow my response to your last comment got posted before yours. (Perhaps it’ll be fixed.)
You have no idea to which you refer to. The metzius is clearly an extremely few Orthodox congregations allow women to dance with the Torah. It is virtually unanimous in the Chareidi world and even most of the Modern Orthodox follow Rabbi Yoshe Ber Soloveitchik’s opposition to women holding the Torah.
Avraham Avinu is more comparable to a malach than to mere mortals.
A tiny minority of non-Chasidish Kehilos, Beis HaKeneses’ and Beis Medrashes allow women to touch the Torah on S”T.
This is an abnormal question.
“The term was in no way being used objectively.”
I think it was, accurately, being used objectively.
Not merely the tri-state area. A highly disproportionate amount of American Orthodox Jewry is concentrated specifically in Brooklyn and Lakewood (and potentially the outer-boroughs and Monsey/NS/KJ can be included.)
You’re incorrect in both your assumptions and logical reasoning. But more to the point, using your own argument if a community is noheg against it per the psak with solid backing that they follow, no one can challenge them for prohibiting women from holding the Torah – as jf02 did reasoning it makes her “uncomfortable”.