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ubiq: If popa’s correct you would not realize you are wrong when you think something is “nonsense”.
And the kesuba puts out road-bumps to make divorce more difficult while this prenup does the opposite by greasing the wheels to facilitate a divorce sailing through more easily.
It doesnt make it easier for her to get divorced
It most certainly does make it easier.
How many of each of the following does Brooklyn have and how many does Baltimore have?
Gedolim, frum yidden, Yeshivas, Butei Medrashim, Chesed organizations, Hatzala/Chaveirim/Shomrim,
Bikur Cholims, etc.?
P.S. Avram: Is comparing the positives of each okay?
A kesuba protects marriage and the wife by making divorce harder and more costly to divorce her. The prenup does the opposite by making marriage more expendable and easier to dissolve in divorce while making it more costly to stay married.
Litvish shitta? I don’t think the Chasidish shitta is different.
There is certainly no “minhag” to overturn the halacha and be mochel maaseha yadeha but still gives mezonos. In fact the provisions of the prenup attempts to do exactly this because by default there is no such thing.
A kesuba might penalize him if he gives a Get. So it pressures him not to give a Get. Hence no Get Me’usa problem. The prenup penalizes him if he does not give a Get. So it pressures him to give a Get. Hence the Get Me’usa problem.
You just answered your own question.
It doesn’t matter that the effect of that is to make him more likely to divorce her to get out of paying it.
It certainly does matter halachicly. Even all the rabbinic supporters of the prenup admit that if you change the dollar amount in the prenup to $500/day (or any amount more than the obligatory mezonos) and leave everything else in the prenup exactly as is, it halachicly invalidates the prenup.
Because if you say that, then the whole kesuba is one giant get-meuseh generator, because he has to pay mezonos until they’re divorced!
Mezonos is not equal to $150/day, $55,000/year, to support one person (plus inflation and plus giving her her employment income.)
newbee: HaRav Moshe Hillel Hirsch shlit”a answered your question in the first post of this thread.
Rebbe Yid: Who ever said anything about everyone doing it? There are quite a few givirim in the diamond district (to take an example) who are quite wealthy too.
About your second question, that wasn’t the question asked of Rav Shteinman but there’s no reason to think he’d have said any differently. Indeed the guys have a chiyuv of limud Torah whereas the girls do not, so it is an even bigger issue for a guy to do it.
hock: huh?
Maran HaGaon HaRav Aaron Yehuda Leib Shteinman shlit”a too:
Rav Schneider added the Rosh Yeshiva was asked about a shidduch for a girl studying in a chareidi college. The rav said the boy should look for another shidduch, adding
The rav was asked if he is concerned the young lady will not find a shidduch, to which he explained he is not worried about her shidduch but if she will find the correct derech and her Yiras Shomayim.
Which part are you challenging, Sam?
Sam: The prenup sets the amount to $55K + inflation (plus her earnings) even if she came from a poor family living in Wisconsin and married a poor husband who earned his living as a cashier in the kosher grocery near a far flung Chabad house.
If they would fight over what the Shulchan Aruch mandated mezonos amount should be, that is what beis din is for – to settle that question. (There is no problem if they agreed to a specific beis din before marriage.) Just because they might fight over the appropriate mezonos amount does not give the right to preset an amount that effectively is a kenas.
(Additionally to the above, even if she lived during her marriage in a fancy Manhattan neighborhood [with an average income that the vast majority of frum men don’t come close to earning], $55K [plus inflation plus her earnings] is well above the amount of mezonos S”A would make him mechuyiv in. S”A doesn’t obligate a husband to provide his wife mezonos to reach “her living expectations”, especially when he cannot afford it. And especially when she left the marital home and he’s, as is his right, offering to cover her mezonos in the home but not out of the home.)
The counselors should unionize and go on strike.
They’re not more knowledgeable than the rabbonim on the other side. And they didn’t even address all the issues. On the mezonos question, it is so blatantly incorrect. (Read the entire discussion here on mezonos.) They admitted that if the amount is above mezonos then it is a halachicly objectionable kenas even if he agreed to it and even if the terms in the agreement calls the amount mezonos.
Do divorced men have it easy in shidduchim? What about divorced men who have custody of their children?
Preposterously, that paying her $55K/year (plus inflation plus her keeping her own salary) isn’t more than what Shulchan Aruch specifies as the amount of mezonos for one person.
When I asked about the times he doesn’t even have a chiyuv to pay her any mezonos at all (yet the prenup makes him pay), they didn’t give me an answer. (Offhand, one of them might have said “but he agreed to it”; all that means is he agreed to pay a kenas.)
DM: For the umpteenth time, I’ve communicated with multiple rabbonim including ones affiliated with the bda.
Sam: If the husband’s salary is $75,000/year and he is paying $20,000/year in Federal, State and municipal taxes, and then he pays his wife $55,000/year, is what I meant he is paying her with his after tax dollars. In other words, he would need to be earning $75K to pay her $55K. [Actually more since he must pay her $55K + inflation from the time of his wedding. And then he is left with no income to support himself and their children.] Whether she must pay taxes on the $55K she received from him is a separate question that I didn’t intend to address.
It isn’t “extra” mezonos; it is a kenas. And a kenas renders a Get to be a Get Me’usa. Any payment amount above the halachic amount required for mezonos is a kenas. Even the supporters of the prenup admit this. (I asked this of a major prenup supporter whose been a dayan on the BDA and he expressly stated as such.) If the payment amount was $500/day instead of $150/day (and the terms of the prenup were otherwise exactly the same) even R. Willig would admit it is a kenas, and it renders the prenup halachicly invalid and causes a Get Me’usa. But the supporters are being deceitful in claiming $150+/day, $55,000+/year, [plus her keeping her own salary] is not higher than a mezonos amount (as I clearly demonstrated in previous posts on this thread.)
Regarding the lack of reciprocity, her not receiving $150+/day is not much of penalty and certainly isn’t reciprocal to his having to pay her.
Regarding the start date, she can walk out and give him immediate notice he must begin paying her.
The Nachalas Shivah is not designed to force or pressure the husband to give a Get and was not for divorcing cases. It is the pressure of a kenas that renders it a Get Me’usa and potentially causes mamzeirim c’v, an inapplicable issue in the Nachalas Shivah case.
Her keeping her salary while he is paying her mezonos is halachicly effectively an additional kenas, since that salary is his property under halacha while he is providing mezonos.
“So, you’d be happy if the prenup was a smaller figure, or depended on income, or on what standard of living the wife was used to?”
Yes. If the amount were the same amount as Shulchan Aruch specifies a husband is obligated to provide mezonos and the amount was only payable in halachic situations when he is obligated to pay her mezonos, then ???”? it would be halachicly acceptable. Anything above that amount, or applicable in additional situations, renders it a kenas.
Waiters are legally paid less than minimum wage since they get tips. Counselors are the same in they get tips.
See the aforementioned RCA resolution indicating their serious concern that a consequential number of their own MO marriage performing member rabbis don’t support these prenups.
Actually I proved very many don’t. See the RCA resolution from 2013 that I quoted above. Even many MO rabbis who are mesader kedushin refuse to recommend the prenup. Or better yet ask around. Most MO newlyweds never signed the prenup. (And in the Chareidi world, which constitutes over 80% of the young American Orthodoxy [see above Pew I cited], it is virtually unheard of.)
Do you still use Opera Mini?
Do you still ask phishing questions?
I was honored for myself but mortified for you.
SL: 1 and 3. It flies me by. 2. Lost track. (A while back there was a fairly poor track record. Now there isn’t anything to inculpate.)
MDG: I overlook inaccurate questions.
???? ?????? is not referring to “poverty”. There wasn’t a new poverty crisis that didn’t previously exist in that timeframe. Poverty was a fact of life for centuries among European Jewry. And the term ???? ?????? is not how poverty would typically be referred to.
I believe it is dated in May 1940. But even in 1939 (the year WWII broke out) the footsteps of war were loud and clear. They weren’t considering to move talmidei yeshiva halfway across the globe to find a more prosperous lifestyle. He is saying that a ???? ??????? is worse than a ???? ??????.
My shaila hours are only between 2 am and 5 am. But for now, suffice to say, according to the CR minhag the letter Jud is transliterated with the letter J. Just ask rabbiofberlin or 147.
DM: I have already been in touch with various gedolim and rabbonim on this issue. (I mentioned one earlier. There are others including on the MO side.)
Sam: According to Pew Research, nationally middle class income starts at $31,000 a year (for an individual). In Manhattan, middle class income starts at $45,000 a year for an individual. According to the US Census, the national median income is $36,000 for an individual and $52,000 for households (i.e. two incomes). In NYS, the household (i.e. two incomes) median income is $57,000. Upper middle class, nationally, starts at $62,500 per household (two incomes).
[And it should be again pointed out that mezonos obligations are not to provide a middle income lifestyle but rather only to meet basic living expenses.]
And under the prenup a) the wife keeps her own income (even though halachicly it belongs to him if he gives her mezonos) – this is effectively doubling the money she is getting b) if he is obligated on her mezonos, he only owes it to her as an individual (i.e. single person) c) his child support obligations are separate, enforceable separately, and the prenup payments to her are specifically not counted towards child support d) most people do not earn an $80,000 a year salary even pre-taxes and most people would be very happy with such a salary. $80,000 post Federal, State and City taxes is $60K-something a year. The prenup costs $55,000/year + inflation for all the years from the wedding date until the separation date. e) So on his $60K-something post-tax income he has to give her over $55K (probably $60K-something and maybe more) once the prenup termed mandatory inflation adjustment is added. Now after he gave her all his income, he has to pay his rent or mortgage, his kids tuition, food for him and his kids, miscellaneous expenses, transportation to work, car, insurance, healthcare, etc.
You know as well as I and anyone else reading this that $55,000 + inflation (post-tax money) for one person – plus her keeping her own earnings – is not any halachic or otherwise definition of “mezonos”.
Sam: This Rama is how we’ve paskened for centuries, at least.
$50,000, after-taxes, per-person, is far in excess of “middle class” in NYC. That would be defining middle class for a two parent household as being in the neighborhood of $150,000 pre-tax per year. Completely absurd. And the prenup amount is the same across the US, it isn’t a NYC amount. And it is post-tax dollars not pre-tax dollars. And it is for (mezonos supposedly of) one person not an amount for a family. And the prenup indexes it to inflation, meaning the amount will be more than $150/day, $55,000/year, when it kicks in.
More fundamentally, a husband is not even required to give his wife mezonos in amount equivalent to an upper middle class income lifestyle for her. (And, again, this prenup amount is far far in excess of middle class.) He only obligated to cover mezonos for basic living expenses. And in many cases (and with the Rama in virtually all cases the prenup applies to) he has no chiyuv to give her any mezonos.
Bottom line: The BDA prenup is set to an amount clearly and overtly and unambiguously to be a severe penalty that the vast majority of husbands could not even afford to pay (with the obvious intent of forcing him into giving a Get even in cases where he has no halachic obligation to give a Get). To call it mezonos is an unmitigated joke.
Read Rav Elyashev’s teshuva I cited on the issue of agreeing to a monetary Shibud. Rav Elyashev says that since at the time of signing he expected it to never actually coming into play, he effectively never agreed to it. Rav Elyashev further rules that even if he had properly and bindingly agreed to it, if the result is that it pressures him into giving a Get then it is a Get Me’usa.
Yet one should be refraining from listening to music during his half of sefira and if he attends a wedding he will be listening to music.
Part of a July 10, 2013 RCA resolution:
nishtdayngesheft: I asked a question; I didn’t make a statement.
How is it not a problem for someone keeping the 1st half of sefira to attend a wedding during the week after Pesach, or someone keeping the 2nd half to attend a wedding after lag b’omer?
IEHB: If you’re more comfortable with the original Hebrew of Rav Elchonon Wasserman hy’d’s own handwritten words, here it is:
????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????. ??????? ??????? ??????? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ?”? ?????? (?????? ????? ??????????) ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ???????? ?? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???????
And it most certainly is very relevant. Rav Wasserman hy’d literally made life and death decisions based on it.
Sam: 1) The Nachalas Shivah is irrelevent to the prenup argument. Even Rav Asher Weiss, who supports the prenup for other reasons, admits as much. Rav Weiss writes about the Nachalas Shivah as thus:
???”? ??? ?? ???? ???”? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ????????, ??? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ????, ??”? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????.?
“In my humble opinion this is not related to our case for it seems that this enactment’s fundamental purpose is really to guarantee the well-being of the woman and the distribution to her of her food, and not as a medium to force the husband to divorce his wife, and if so there is no proof to our case.”
And she can’t demand what “she deserves”. Mezonos is based on the cost of basic living expenses for anyone in that locality. Furthermore, the BDA prenup kicks in the so-called “mezonos” even in cases where there is no halachic obligation to give a Get and cases where he has no halachic obligations to give her any mezonos. (See previous comment on the Rama.)
2) $Over $50,000 per year, for one person, is most certainly not “about the same as what is considered a median middle-class income”. The only way you get there is if you count a two-parent income, in which case a) she is already keeping her own income, per the prenup, even though halachicly if he gives her mezonos then he gets to keep all her income and b) if $50,000 after-tax for one person is what you call a “median middle-class income” then a two parent family with four children would need something like $200,000 pre-tax to be middle class. This is an absurd argument for both these reasons and this is blatantly obvious. It is a penalty not mezonos.
Matan: Rabbi Schwatz is MO. The RCA doesn’t disallow members from being mesader without the prenup. And despite the rhetoric, the very clear majority of MO chasanim don’t sign it. In the non-MO world virtually no one signs this prenup. And according to the Pew Research study from less than two years ago, 81% of American Orthodox Jews age 30 and younger are Chareidim.
The better shaila isn’t how could the baal simcha make the wedding then; like others replied, he holds from the other half of sefira. The better question is how can the guests who are holding of the half of sefira the simcha is made in attend that simcha.
Matan1: The list is almost only of MO rabbis. And it isn’t as widely used even in the MO community as supporters tout. (Check around with recent MO couples and you’ll likely find most never signed.)
Outside of the MO world it is virtually unheard of. I saw a YT video of Jeremy Stern claiming Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky told him he supports it when he bumped into him on a plane ride. I called Rav Shmuel and he told me he certainly does not recommend or encourage it but rather if the other side asks for it he doesn’t think you should fight them over it since he doesn’t have a halachic objection to signing it. (Rav Elyashev does halachicly object, as his teshuva states.) Rav Shmuel specifically told me it should not be recommended or encouraged.
Sam: That is not correct. The amount specified in the RCA/BDA prenup is far in excess of “mezonos”. It specifies the husband must pay her $150 a day. That is in excess if $50,000 a year in so-called “mezonos”. It is clearly and unambiguously designed to far exceed any reasonable mezonos need in order to effectively penalize him into pressuring him to give a Get. Regardless whether he has a halachic obligation to give it or not.
It starts taking effect the day she (on her own volition) walks out of his home (or forces him out). Under many such circumstances he has zero halachic obligation to give her any mezonos (see my earlier comment regarding the Rama) let alone pay her an amount far in excess of mezonos of over $50,000 a year. An amount that is the same even if they have no children. (And it wouldn’t replace his child support obligation even if they do have children.) How many men even earn enough to pay someone 50,000 after-tax dollars a year plus support himself and his children. It would require an income of over $125,000, at least, pre-taxes. His individual (not family) income.
This prenup doubtlessly and undeniably is designed to be penalizing. (And to an extent where the vast majority of husbands couldn’t even afford it.) This is no mezonos.
As far as the BDA, the prenup doesn’t have a fill-in to indicate one’s preferred beis din. (There are other provisions in it that are optional and can be selected, if desired.) It is pre-printed with the BDA in the terms. And the instructions indicate not to change any provisions unless first contacting the BDA.
chush: Read Rav Elyashev’s teshuva I referenced above. His various objections remain relevant to the prenup.
$750 (or even $600) cash a week for a teenage kid, even if it is live-in (with her getting off-time for leisure), seems way out of the stratosphere.
It’s even worse than that. It only financially penalizes the husband if the husband doesn’t give it; it makes no provisions to penalize the wife if the wife doesn’t accept it. Furthermore, it pressures the giving of a Get even in cases where halacha doesn’t require a Get. And additionally it mandates using a beit din that has a reputation for issuing decisions that are based on popular feminist views and follow secular law over halacha when the two differ.
akuperma: The Rama paskens that a husband is only responsible for his wife’s expenses while she lives in his home. The halacha also is that a wife cannot purchase anything without her husband’s approval. (And if she does her husband can reverse the transaction and is not responsible to pay for it.)
I haven’t seen the Tshuvah inside
Perhaps it would be wise to look at it inside before commenting. I provided the maare makom. He most certainly was strongly opposed to it.
Kastner was a leader of the Zionist movement in Hungary. And after the establishment of the State he was an Israeli government official.
Because poskim, including Posek HaDor HaRav Yosef Shalom Elyashev zt’l, paskened that it is against Jewish Law. And if utilized causes a future Get to be a Get Me’usa (invalid Get).
IEHB: Your translation is a fair reading (although I think mine is closer to the author’s intent) but even granting your understanding of the letter, your reading is still a heavy indictment of YU — that going to YU is an equal danger to remaining in Nazi Europe and facing death.
OURt: Does one need to be a murder victim to know the danger of being killed?
we don’t let what they say penetrate our being
It’s easy to talk that into yourself. But when they’re drilling kefira and pritzus into your head day in and day out, week after week, month after month, year after year, don’t tell anyone it has no effect on you or that you’re not affected negatively. You may not be cognizant of it but it’s happening. You will not come out on the same madreiga you went it. To think otherwise is to be in denial.
Mods: Toned down; hopefully this passes.
ubiq: So your response is that
a) You know Rav Dovid
b) Rav Dovid admitted to you he is manipulated
c) Rav Dovid signs anyways to these manipulating troublemakers
d) You’re unsure if the troublemakers are lsheim shamayim
e) We should listen to Rav Dovid even though he is being manipulated
f) Rav Dovid and all the other gedolim who sign (who Points C through E equally apply to) are obviously gullible
My response:
You’re wrong on Points B through F. Neither Rav Dovid nor the other of multitudes of signatory gedolim have been manipulated. They considered the issue deeply and thoroughly and reached the halachic conclusion (one of their jobs is being halachic decisors, remember? this is why they’re here for us – to hear these issues and issue decisions) that it is assur.
IEHB: Rav Elchonon Wasserman’s exact words, as he wrote (in which the ksav yad is available), is thus:
“The yeshivos in America which are able to bring over students are the yeshivas of Dr. Revel (named Yeshiva University) in New York and Beis Midrash L’Torah in Chicago and they both are places of danger in terms of spirituality because they conduct themselves in a spirit of freedom. And what benefit is there to flee from a physical danger to a spiritual danger.”
Unambiguously, Rav Wasserman hy”d is saying it is better to die at the hands of the Nazis than to be saved by YU due to its spiritual danger. Clearly he is referring to the risk of one’s spiritual death being a greater tragedy than one’s being physically killed.