Lilmod Ulelamaid

Meno: “Joseph, Just curious, how do you know that?”

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/web-scam-hdcameraworld#post-4494

“I thought most people use tissues on Shabbos. What do you use?”

You can rip up toilet paper before Shabbos. That’s what we used to do in EY back in the day when tissues were considered a luxury and a waste of money in EY. Apparently, they also used to do that in the US, because my grandfather, a”h told me that he remembers cutting up t.p. before Shabbos when he went to his grandparents for Shabbos.

In the US, the sewage system is much weaker than it is in EY, and using tissues can cause clogging, especially in NJ, and I think maybe especially in basement apartments.

However, I don’t think it’s an issue in EY.

“I disagree! IDK who you’re talking about, but I know of a case almost the same. It might even be the same case – who knows?!?”

After I wrote it, I was actually wondering if it could have been you. From the way you responded, I guess it wasn’t. I have heard of several cases like this, and I’m sure there must be many that I haven’t heard of, so it’s probably not the case you heard of.

It’s true that you never know the truth. Personally, I think that is partially because there may not be a real “truth”. When you are dealing with relationships, things are usually not black-and-white, and it is possible for different people to look at it in different ways and they may all be right.

Most people are neither completely perfect or completely imperfect so in any conflict, there is generally some “fault” on both sides. But then again, you can also say that neither is really at fault, because maybe everyone is trying their best.

MA – there are tissues that are connected – it depends on the brand. Unless they stopped making those kinds.

And I know there can be a problem in shuls because I was nichshal recently.

How can a tissue be folded into another? I don’t think that any of the brands I use work that way.

Or would that be Local Orthodox Shul?

You do have to be careful in shuls. Sometimes, they have those tissue dispensers and the tissues are (always? usually? sometimes?) attached in those things. That’s why many shuls will have ripped up toilet paper or tissue boxes on Shabbos.

147 & SDD – I believe that some say to say it in Shema Koleinu. But there are many opinions, and I don’t remember the different opinions off-hand.

LB- Also, not to pressure you or anything, since I know that you are in a process, and it’s crucial to take things slowly and grow in a healthy pace. But, it is also important to know what our goals are. So you should be aware that part of Yiddishkeit is believing in certain things. And I think we are supposed to believe that there is reward and punishment in the World-to-Come. Not just to prevent us from straying, but because it is Emes and we are supposed to believe it.

If you prefer not to think about it too much, that is fine, but it is important to believe in it (when you feel ready). In Judaism, the beliefs are important and not just the actions.

Again, I do want to stress my great admiration for your love for and enthusiasm for Yiddishkeit for its own sake. I have a lot to learn from you.

Thanks!

When I check out divorced guys, I usually try to ask if he pays child support. You don’t want to marry a guy who doesn’t pay child support! Unless there are extenuating circumstances – like if his wife won’t let him see the kids (but then you also have to check out why she won’t).

Lavender – don’t ask him about the divorce. I think that’s rude. Wait for him to bring it up. A fourth date may be too early to expect him to bring it up.

I agree with Trust789 that you should have looked into this before going out. But it’s not too late – you can speak to references at any point. You probably won’t have time before the 4rth date, but as soon as possible, you should call his references or other people who might know about the divorce.

It’s generally best to speak to a Rav who was involved with the divorce. You do want to try to make sure to speak to people who know the story, are objective and who will be careful not to unneccesarily shmear the wife.

One Rosh Yeshiva whom I once called to ask about a divorce just told me that I have nothing to worry about. He didn’t want to speak unnecessary LH about the ex-wife. I was very impressed by this.

It is very unfortunate that when divorced people are in shidduchim, it becomes necessary for everyone to be talking about them, so one has to be careful about hilchos LH and not saying anything unnecessary. At the same time, it is VERY IMPORTANT to check things out as thoroughly as possible.

But you don’t want to speak to people who are just going to keep shmearing the wife unneccessarily (I remember one phone call where I had no choice but to remove the phone from my ears until the person finished talking).

Of course, since you are going on a fourth date, it is more relevant for you to have more information at this point than if you were going on a first date, so all of this is less of an issue, and you should be checkiing things out pretty thorougly.

Iacrsmma: “LU: And the person suddenly became physically abusive while pregnant with #9?”

I don’t know. I didn’t ask for details. As soon as I heard he had been physically abusive, I stopped investigating.

Abba – the information came from a Rav and he was very careful about he he phrased it in order not to be “oiver” on LH. His specific lashon was something like, “She claimed there was physical abuse and it was probably true (or “it seems it was true” – I don’t remember the precise lashon and in any case, it was in hebrew).”

My impression was that he was sure it was true (or he wouldn’t have said anything), but he was very careful to be accurate in how he phrased it since he had not actually witnessed it himself, obviously.

In terms of LH and the wife’s side, I was actually exceedingly impressed by them. Before I spoke to this Rav, I called the ex-wife’s sister who told me that as the ex-wife’s sister, she couldn’t tell me anything. She was very sweet and wished me hatzlacha at the end of the call. After I spoke to the Rav and found out what had happened, I was really impressed by the sister!

szb1: It really has a lot to do with the individual person – are they more emotional or more intellectual? What are their reasons for being anti-religion? You may have to listen to them first and see what they say and where the conversation goes, first empathize with them and then steer the conversation accordingly.

I would probably talk about the purpose in life. Point out to them that there HAS to be a purpose in life. Maybe ask them what they think life is about? Point out that it ends one day, and then what?

But the specific approach may have to take a more emotional bent if the person is a more emotional type. If they are more logical and intellectual, you can focus more on the intellectual reasons why it makes sense to be Frum, and if she is more emotional, you may have to talk more about meaning and fulfillment.

Aish HaTorah put out a video years ago about doing kiruv. I never saw it, but it sounds like it could be helpful. I think it was called Inspired or something like that.

“Another thing about MT is that it is together with many other seminaries for meals and such. I want somewhere that is smaller and homier.”

I’ve worked on Neve campus, although not with MT. My impression of the seminaries there is that they still have that feeling of being small and homey despite being on this huge campus, because for the most part, each school really is its own place, with its own dorm and its own section of the building for classes and offices. It’s only for the meals that they are in the same room, but even then, the girls in each school usually eat separately.

But I can’t say for sure – you would have to speak to girls who have been there. Even a girl who has been to one of the other sems there (one of the warmer ones like Bnos Sara or Michlelet Esther) should be be able to tell you.

Do you know girls who have been to any of those schools whom you can ask?

btw, if you feel that way about Midreshet Tehilla, then Michlala is definitely not for you! That was one of the main reasons I didn’t think it’s for you.

Kingdavid – in that case, though, he definitely shouldn’t be anonymous.

huju, when I saw the reference to Pesach, at first I thought you were talking about “libun”.

If Winnie the Pooh is right, then they actually are both from the same shoresh, I think.

mobica – +1

MA & Joseph +1

MA – this is generally only discussed in 11th or 12th grade or seminary. At that age, girls are ready to start thinking about marriage. Of course, the discussions have to be kept appropriate. To some extent, the definition of appropriate depends on the kids’ backgrounds.

“I get to see a lot of Shidduch resumes and see a trend of couples getting divorced during pregnancy.”

There was a guy who was redt to me whose wife divorced him while she was expecting her ninth kid. When I looked into it, I found out that he had been physically abusive. I was like, oh yeah, that makes sense, why else would someone get divorced while expecting their ninth?

nyc112: “Women can be just as abusive, it can be the other way around”

That is definitely true. I never thought otherwise. If there was something I wrote that seemed to imply otherwise, that was not how I meant it. I definitely have heard of cases like that.

“If there is abuse because of emotional issues in the marriage then that changes everything, no skills can help things”

I’m not sure about that. It may depend on how you define abuse. Abuse is a broad term. I know people who had bad marriages the first time around because they were abusive, but then had good second marriages because they worked on themselves meanwhile.

Also, I’ve known people who were abusive to some people but not to their spouse. There are many people in the world who are abusive to some people but know how to be nice to others. Sometimes, that is the reason that the first marriage doesn’t work but the second one does.

Also, whether or not someone can be considered abusive sometimes has to do with the way the second person deals with it. Someone who is more sensitive may consider something abuse that someone else won’t or will know how to deal with.

Of course, if you are talking about serious deliberate malicious abuse or physical abuse, that is another story. But to my knowledge, that is not the cause for most divorces in the Frum world.

“Of course, there are different methods, and if your counselor said that’s how he works, then there’s nothing wrong with that.”

Meno, doesn’t this statement contradict the post you had written in a previous thread about how marriage therapy won’t work unless each side is willing to step back a bit?

There is such a thing as bad therapists and I had thought that was your point in the post before this.

If the therapist is starting out by saying his point is “to convince the other side” of something, wouldn’t that be considered bad therapy as it defeats the whole point of therapy? Isn’t the point of marriage therapy to try to work on your marriage, and doesn’t that entail trying to see what you can do differently and trying to understand why the other person feels the way they do and what you can do for them? Isn’t that what marriage is about?

Please clarify. Thanks so much.

I once hitchhiked with a friend and was treated to a lecture about the dangers of hitchhiking by the person who gave us the ride. Only in Israel.

(Disclaimer: I would normally not do anything quite that dumb, but I was sort of forced into it).

Maybe the last post is a bit of overkill? I feel like the point was made – we don’t have to keep bashing the guy?

If it becomes a normal thing to use for children, then it’s possible that it won’t be considered animal-like but rather child-like.

“It would be good if children were taught about healthy relationships in school.”

They are starting to teach these kinds of things in high schools. I have a friend who is a high school principal and she told me they have a year long class about this in her school. One of the things they teach is how to recognize signs of abuse. Obviously, she hired someone who is qualified to teach the subject.

“Whoa. I found 5-6% to be the understatement of the year. Wishful thinking.”

Whoa, and I thought it sounded high! Guess it depends on the community and/or who you know.

“Are you talking about Gets or civil divorces? Because we know that those number are quite different given that, ahem, yea, sometimes one party asserts spiritual control on that end.”

How many cases do you know like that? B”H, I don’t think I know of any.