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“Even in the same State – if you’re self-employed – there is no garnishment!”
+1. I was going to point that out.
“Why is it needed to discus the divorce. It’s highly unlikely she will ever find out the truth, the husband will blame the wife and the ex will blame her husband.”
That’s why you have to try to speak to people who are relatively objective and not just the guy himself. Speaking to a Rav involved with the divorce is a good idea. And even if you will never know the complete truth, your hishtadlus is to ask reliable references.
If everyone you speak to tells you that he is a dangerous person and you should stay away, even though you have no way of knowing 100% that they are telling the truth and even though according to halacha you are not allowed to really believe it, you still have to stay FAR AWAY!
I don’t think there has ever been a murder in Ramat Beit Shemesh or Kiryat Sefer, bli ayin hora.
There are many types of abuse – physical abuse is only one. You can’t invalidate someone’s suffering by saying that there are worse forms of suffering. It’s also generally not fair to compare one person’s suffering to another, even if seems “obvious” that one person’s suffering is greater. In any case, even if one is worse than the other, it doesn’t mean the second one is not suffering.
Verbal and emotional abuse are considered valid reasons to get divorced according to the Torah. Going through gehinom in this world only saves you from gehinom in the next world if you didn’t choose the gehinom. You can’t deliberately choose to marry someone abusive and then claim that you should get out of gehinom as a result. It was your choice and it was a bad one; according to Rav Yitzchak Berkowitz, you may even be punished as a result, because of what you are doing to your kids.
Likewise, if you accidentally ended up with an abusive spouse, and the Rabbanim and your seichel tell you that you should get divorced and you choose not to, you will not be rewarded in the next world – you may even be punished for not doing what you should have done and for the effect it had on your kids.
However, in a situation in which you did not choose to marry the abusive person, and it is either impossible to get divorced or for whatever reason, the Rabbanim tell you that in your case you should not get divorced, then Abba is right. But the general rule is that one is not allowed to choose to go through gehinnom in this world, and if you do, you will not be rewarded for it, and you may even be punished.
ok, I finally “chapped”.
I wouldn’t know – I live in EY, Boruch Hashem!
Is it different every year? Isn’t it December 4rth?
DY, it’s barely Kislev. I know some people start cleaning for Pesach after Chanuka, but isn’t it a little early for this?
The danger with googling is that you won’t know if it’s a kosher and acceptable website.
Sorry – I made a mistake on #4 – it’s called “simple to remember”
Plus two more:
5. Torah Anytime
6. Naaleh
If it’s illegal, then it’s assur. 1. Dina d’malchusa dina 2. Chillul Hashem.
In another thread she said she was looking for a BMG guy.
Flatbusher – In order to be able to say that there is any truth to your statements, one would have to know the following:
1. Did most people who got divorced only date a few times?
2. Were there things they would have found out if they had gone out longer?
3. Are these things that they could have found out if they had done more checking?
I find it hard to say that going out a few times is inherently a problem since so many people do things that way and it works out great. However, it is not for everyone, and it is possible that there are individuals who are doing it or being pressurred to do it who shouldn’t be.
I think it’s a very individual thing. Everyone has to know himself, no one should pressure anyone else, and if someone has a real concern that someone they know is being pressurred they should try to say something.
But I think it is difficult to make black-and-white statements about these things, in either direction. Just like it bothers me when people are criticized for taking too long, I’m not sure that people should be criticized for doing things quickly.
I would be curious to know statistically speaking if there is any truth to this. Looking at American society as a whole, it is certainly not true. Adraba, the Frum community as far fewer divorces even though (or because) we date far fewer times before getting engaged.
Health, I think there may be a halachic problem with marrying a kangaroo. Unless of course you are also a kangaroo.
1. Rabbi Leff’s website. He is acceptable and he has a lot on halacha.
2. Kol Haloshon’s website (or phone number).
3. A website called Torah Downloads.
4. a website called Easy to Remember. I never looked at it, but I was told about it from a reliable source. I do not know what topics they have, but I assume they must have some halacha.
being a messenger of Shamayim is not the same as being sanctioned by Shamayim. It is possible to be both, but being a messenger is not proof of sanction. I am not familiar with the story in Nach. Is it specified that it was davka sanctioned by Hashem, or just that he was a messenger?
well you said that you didn’t want to be followed…
Also, it doesn’t mean that they think it’s good for women to be abused. If someone likes reading murder mysteries, does that mean that they think murder is good?
“Ponder please this also Which books-
for women, are some of the hottest bestsellers in recent years?”
I have no idea what you are talking about, since people in my circles don’t read such trash. So what you are saying does not apply to the Frum world (or at least the segments to which I affiliate).
I’m now waiting for someone to say that it’s assur to smoke even during the week.
“If it snows on Chanukah can we build a snowman?”
Only if you make sure to take his cigarette out before Shabbos.
There was a story about that in an old “Best of Olemeinu” book, written by Rebbetzin Bulman zatsal. It was about a snowman whose creator almost forgot to take his cigarette out before Shabbos, and he was really upset about is so he davened to Hashem that the boy should remember before Shabbos.
Rebbetzin Bulman zatsal told me that it was based on a true story that happened her son. (Well, maybe some of the details were made up…).
If you can get the BP Weekly, there is a list every week of all the shiurim. You should check first though, because they are not always updated. The BP weekly comes to every home in Lakewood for free, so if you are living in Lakewood, you should be able to get it. In the worst case, you can go down to the BP office to get a copy (I think it’s on Fourth Street between Clifton & Madison).
My impression is that you are post-seminary girl. If that is correct, Rabbi Grama gives a weekly shiur that girls love. Also, there is an organization called Pninim or Pnima (there are 2 organizations with similar names, so I mix them up. One is specifically about tznius -that is not the one I am talking about). They have weekly shiurim by different speakers. Originally, it was meant to be only for single girls, but I don’t think that is the case anymore, although they may sometimes have some shiurim specifically for single girls.
Rebbetzin Dina Fink had tried starting something for post-sem girls at some point. I am not sure if it ever took off or not. It had a name that begin with a Lamed – something like Lech Lecha.
All these things should be in the BP Weekly.
“Trump will iy’h be the best.” We can’t possibly know that – “lev melachim b’yad Hashem”. Only Hashem will decide how he will be.
LB – you can’t trade on Shabbos though. I’ve had experience dealing with some very disappointed kids when they heard that. Hopefully, you are old enough to be able to deal with the fact that you can only trade cereal boxes 6 days a week. You strike me as the mature type.
Joseph, who was yours?
Avi – cute joke but you left out the most important part. You are supposed to say that he was a Brisker.
“How did you post if you weren’t logged in?”
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/why-cant-i-log-in#post-635958
“E/O thinks that they’re already perfect!”
Teenage girls don’t think they are perfect. I don’t know about boys, but if they had courses like this, they would realize they are not.
“They should. Who’s gonna implement this?!?”
They already started doing it in girls’ schools. That is where I got the idea from. I don’t know if they do it for boys schools, and I don’t know if they do it in all girls’ schools. I am also not sure what they teach and if they teach all of the things I mentioned or not.
But people are starting to implement it, and hopefully more will be done.
Health – I am not my own sibling, lol.
And while you are at it, you can also tell us who the first president was that you remember.
LB- does it have to be online? That’s probably not the best place to look.
If you want something that is universally Frum, not everyone accepts Chabad.
To answer your question, I don’t know of anything off-hand, but if I come up with something, I will let you know, bli neder.
Meno – lol
ab100- lol.
But muggings are much more likely to happen, so they have to be taken into account as well since they can be dangerous. Even though murder is a greater danger in theory, l’maaseh, it if doesn’t happen to me, it is not at all dangerous, whereas the mugging that did happen to me was dangerous.
How likely something is to happen is a very big factor that has to be taken into account when talking about potential dangers. That’s why people don’t usually bring up statistics comparing the numbers of people who are struck by lightning.
Shavua Tov to you Lightbrite, all the posters in the CR, and all of Am Yisrael!
We weren’t talking about the murder rate. We were talking about danger in general.
takahmamash – good point. But maybe she is embarrassed to ask.
“It seems like many of you opt for the easy way out, and rather than work on your middos to benefit yourself and the family, you claim to be doing the ‘healthy’ thing and defend your ‘abused ego’ while absorbing the cost of destroying your families (very selfish).”
It is not at all clear that it is better for the kids to stay together. It may actually be worse. It is impossible to do a valid study on this since the only way the study could be valid is if you compared the SAME family making both choices, and obviously that is impossible to do.
Comparing the kids in families in which the parents chose to get divorced and those in which they didn’t completely invalidates the study since the couples who choose to get divorced usually have way more problems than those who didn’t, and if the kids were messed up, it might be because of the problems that were there before the divorce and not because of the divorce itself. And maybe, the kids in those families would have been worse off if the parents hadn’t gotten divorced.
From personal experience, my parents’ divorce did not mess us up, and every single one of my siblings got married and had a happy marriage.
Enough Divorces: It is true that there are cases in which people could work things out, work on their middos, etc but there are also cases in which there was nothing to do, and divorce was the right solution.Do most cases fall in the first category or the second category? I’m not sure how anyone can know the answer to that question. Each case is different, and most of the time, most people do not have enough facts to be able to judge what should have been done. There are way too many factors, and most people really do not know any of them.
On an individual level, if you know someone who is divorced, your obligation is to be “dan l’kaf zchus” (judge favorably) and assume they did the right thing (especially since you really have no way of knowing).
It is not against the Torah to say that there are good reasons to get divorced other than physical abuse. There was a Tanna or an Amora who got divorced just because his wife wasn’t nice to him. We are not Catholics – we do believe that people can get divorced. The fact that the Rabbanim will often tell people to get divorced proves that it is not against the Torah to do so.
As a community, we have to do what we can to prevent these situation from arising in the first place. Whether it is true or not that most divorces could have been prevented at the point at which they happen, it certainly is true that there are many things that can be done ahead of time to lower the divorce rate.
For example:
a) people should be taught how to recognize signs of abuse before they start dating.
b) people should be taught how to deal with conflict.
c) people should be taught communication and relationship skills.
d) Courses on these topics should be taught in high school and seminary.
e) Chasson and Kallah teachers should be trained in these areas.
f) Before people get married, they should be told about some of the issues that may come up in marriage and what to do about them.
g) There should be people available whom chosson and kallahs can turn to for advice and support during Shana Rishona.
No matter what is done, there will always be divorces and there will always be people who should get divorced until Mashiach comes, but there are preemptive measures that can be taken to lower the divorce rate. And that should be what we are working on as a community (and I think it is being done).
YY – thanks for the statistics. It is interesting that the rate of traffic accidents is higher in the US than in EY. I had not known that.
“Lakewood is far down the list. A better rate even than the national rate of the State of Israel.”
If you are talking about drug use and suicides in the Frum community, I think it is probably higher in Lakewood than in EY.
The Jews aren’t committing the crimes, but crimes are committed against them. There are tons of mugging in Lakewood, and there would be more if people weren’t scared to walk around at night.
There have also been several attempted kidnappings and abductions, and at least one actual abduction.
There are far more muggings and attempted kidnappings in Lakewood than in Israel. And this is despite the fact that people are much more careful there than in EY. In Israel, people walk around late at night, and give their kids much more freedom, since kidnapping is not an issue.
Also, if you are only talking about Lakewood, then you shouldn’t be comparing it to the entire Israel – you should be comparing it to places like Beitar, Ramat Beit Shemesh and Kiryat Sefer. The crime rate is way lower in those places than in Lakewood!
LB- as always, I am very impressed by your intellectual honesty, positive attitude, openness to hearing new ideas, and gratitude.
I am glad to hear that you learned something from the book.
Shkoyach! 🙂
“You said that you encouraged someone to keep her head covering after she divorced, which would also be good for chinuch”
Just for the record, that lady was widowed, not divorced. Also, just for the record, I am not sure that there is even a reliable source for someone who was previously married to uncover her hair. Even though she told me that a Rav told her she doesn’t have to, I have no idea who this Rav was. There are a lot of Rabbbanim out there, and they are not all reliable.
In any case, I still would have told her what I told her, even if there really is a reliable source for uncovering one’s hair in such a case. But I don’t want you to have the impression that there really is a source for uncovering one’s hair if one is widowed or divorced. I do not know if there is or not.
no, but it might be better than red.
LB- I have been told by Rabbanim that in general, at my age, it is better to date guys were previously married. This is a general rule, there are exceptions, and everything must be taken on a case-to-case basis, imho.
I have known older single girls who married guys who were never previously married, girls who married guys who were divorced, and girls who married widowers. It seems to me that for girls in their 40’s, marrying someone divorced is the most common scenario.
Abba: “The fact that you have a Heter to accept Loshon HoRa-Motzie Shem Ra this is so that you can avoid an abusive relationship but doesn’t allow you to tell anyone else. Telling someone else may result in you being guilty of Rachelos, Loshon HoRa or Motzie Shem Ra besides possibly embarrassing someone.”
+1. Also, even for yourself, you are supposed to not really believe it as fact even while you act on it. I have no idea how this is possible, but it is the halacha, so it must be possible. I only hope to be able to reach that level one day.
Abba-S -“Claims of abuse in my opinion are usually false”
Health: “I think that the other posters are referring to psychological abuse, not just physical abuse!
That’s where your confusion is.”
+1.
Meno – I had a good teacher.
Winnie the Pooh: “But considering that they have not even discussed his divorce and kids, it is too early to bring the kids into the picture or ask to meet them. When it is serious, she will meet them. I do not think it healthy for kids to be meeting every girl their father dates”
+1
Abba: “You will also need to have a good relationship with the ex wife as she can make your boyfriend’s life and if you marry him you life as well, a living hell, as long as she has custody of his kids.”
This is a very good point. Even though of course you have to take the guy’s side (if you marry him), you also want to make sure to maintain a certain amount of neutrality in terms of how you relate to the ex-wife. Being antagonistc to her will hurt your relationship with the kids and b’ezras Hashem,the future grandchildren whom you will be sharing with the ex-wife.
The second wife can actually be helpful in terms of neutralizing the situation and leading to a more peaceful situation in which the two sides are able to communicate more peacefully and civilly, which is important as B’ezras Hashem, there will be shared Simchas in the future. I have seen this happen.
“So unless the dead beat dad lives and work outside of the US he will be paying child support.”
I believe Lavender lives in Israel. I don’t know what the laws are here. I would imagine that there are always ways to get around it though. I know men in the US who didn’t pay child support, but that was years ago, and maybe things were different then.