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29 – “I said the drastic increase, and in 75% of cases around me it was absolutely the case.”
Wow, that’s so sad! I definitely know of several cases in which that wasn’t the case, but there are many cases about which I wouldn’t know.
Regarding “drastic increase”, my point was that once it became acceptable to get divorced, it makes sense that the numbers would have increased drastically even without Internet. But it is also possible that Internet is to blame.
I was referring to the terminology “our heroes” not to the concept of hakaras hatov. I could be wrong, but to me “our heroes” implies that we consider ourselves to be part of the same nation as them (as opposed to having a hakaras hatov to someone from a different nation). Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think that Jews in England or Israel or Australia refer to them as our heroes.
29 -shkoyach!
Although to be fair, I think that divorces were on the rise before Internet so it is clearly not the only factor, and I think that in most of the cases that I know of that was not the issue. But it definitely can contribute greatly.
Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita does not use the internet at all even in the way you stated. I think that if you were to ask him, he would tell you that ideally it is better not to use it at all (by ideally, I mean that if a person could accomplish the same thing with or w/o internet, he should not use internet).
No shaychus to burka women. As far as I understand, all the Gedolim are against wearing burkas and do NOT consider that to be tznius. Their wives do not dress that way.
The wives of Gedolim do not wear black nailpolish. It is not accepted in the Torah community.
Tznius is something that is not always black and white (no pun intended). One has to develop a sensitivity to it. It is true that most people do not have the right sensitivity and therefore some people can reach the wrong conclusions (in either direction). That is why we have Gedolim – to guide us and tell us what is tznius and what is not (although we should try to work on our sensitivities as well).
There was a famous story with Rav Moshe Feinstein, Zatsal. Someone asked him about a certain style. He said that it was absolutely untznius/assur (I don’t know what lashon he used, but I think he meant both). The man said, “So why doesn’t the Rav publicize that fact? All the Frum women are wearing it; obviously, they don’t realize it’s untznius.” Rav Moshe responded, “Most people care more about what the fashion makers in Paris have to say than about what Rav Moshe Feinstein says.”
What is scary about this story is that it shows that there may be many styles that everyone is wearing that may be completely untznius and assur and no one realizes it and the Gedolim are not saying anything about it (and keep in mind that this story happened in Rav Moshe’s lifetime when the standards of tznius were much higher than today).
That is why we have Gedolim – to tell us what is tznius and what is not, since we can’t always tell ourselves. We know that burkas are a problem because they say so.
However, another interesting thing about this story is that in fact, Rav Moshe chose not to publicize that this style was untznius because he knew the oilam wouldn’t listen. That is kind of why I am not comfortable telling someone that something is assur if I see that they will not listen plus it is something that I personally (although I could be wrong) am not certain that it is assur, but I think it is something to strive for (and even that much I only said because I was asked).
btw, the reason that I put black nailpolish in a different category than other aspects of tznius is because I think the only issue involved is that it sticks out as opposed to being untznius for the kinds of reasons that most untznius things are untznius. I see “sticking out” as a sensitivity level type of thing. One is not supposed to wear something that sticks out (one of the problems with burkas btw), but I don’t know if I can tell someone that it is 100% assur (again, when talking to a young girl who clearly is not holding by it yet.)
I’m Jewish.
I don’t think he’d be able to post if he were blocked. I was wondering about the subtitle – maybe it’s a joke?
LB – you are the best!
ps: It was the Rambam who was a doctor. He became a doctor because he needed a parnassah after his brother died and couldn’t support him anymore.
LB- Unless I missed something, I don’t think that anyone said that one shouldn’t go to therapists. What was said was that a truly Torahdik person should be LESS likely to end up in the situation that he will need to get divorced.
It was a relative statement. While in theory, there should be a madreigah that everyone gets everything from the Torah and would not need therapy and no one would get divorced, we are not on that level as few people are completely Torahdik. But relatively speaking, the more Torahdik someone is,the LESS LIKELY he is to come to a situation of needing a divorce. But it doesn’t mean that it can’t and won’t happen at all, and it may even be common.
Also, while I agree with the basic idea of what you are saying, I don’t agree with the way it is phrased. Part of believing in the Torah is believing that there is NOTHING besides Torah. If going for a therapy is the right thing to do it is only because according to the Torah it is the right thing to do.
Also, the only therapy that would be appropriate is therapy that is based on Torah ideals. That doesn’t mean the therapist necessarily knows what Torah is or realizes that his ideas come from the Torah (he could be a goy or a not-Frum Jew although it is better to go to a Frum Jew if he is just as good). Someone told me that Rav Matisyahu made the following comment on the concept “Chachma bagoyim taamin” (we should believe that there is wisdom amongst the Goyim): Of course there is wisdom amongst the goyim; they got it from us.
If you study psychology, most of the names of the researchers are Jewish.
In any case, there is nothing but Torah. Anything good in the world comes from Torah.
“Most are unemployed, collect welfare or work off the books.”
Exactly. The theoretical person we are talking about probably does one of the above – that is the point.
Also, he probably doesn’t make more than $15,000 – $50,000 a year. That is why he is not paying child support. If he lives in Israel, I’m sure he doesn’t make more than that even if he is paying child support. The average Chareidi family in Israel doesn’t make more than that.
I also don’t know what you mean by licenses. I work privately and I don’t have a license, and I do pay taxes. Maybe it depends on the type of job? If so, he could have the type of job that doesn’t require a license.
In any case, the likelihood is that he works off the books.
LB – why were you trying to bribe the moderators? To get them to give me a nice subtitle? If so, that is very nice of you.
Moderators – any reason that Bigboy’s subtitle is “lishmoa”? Other than the fact that he suggested it for me?
I’m missing something here. Seems like I’m literally missing something, since Showjoe is being quoted but I don’t see a post from him.
Also, “They are really funny” doesn’t seem to be going on anything. And Comlink-x’s comment as well.
GAW – just wondering – What is your opinion? Do you think it’s untznius for a girl to leave her hair unbraided? Do you tell your daughters (if you have any) to braid their hair? Have you ever asked a sheilah about it?
“I never said that it did. The Mishna Berurah also doesn’t say that you can’t wear black nail polish :)”
That is why I said that I don’t think it’s assur to wear black nail polish.
You seemed to be saying that it’s assur to not wear braids, since there are Rishonim and Achronim who say so, and you told me (or tznius? I thought you meant me but realized afterwards you may have meant tznius) I should ask a sheilah about whether it’s assur not to wear braids. Since it’s not in the Mishna Berurah and I’ve never heard any contemporary poseik say it’s a problem, I see no reason to even ask.
btw, since it’s in the Rishonim and Achronim and yet the Mishna Berurah doesn’t mention it, it seems that he doesn’t hold that way. This is especially true since he does talk about hair covering, so he would have said something there if he considered it to be the halacha. On the other hand, since the Rishonim and Achronim don’t talk about nail polish to my knowledge and the Mishna Berurah doesn’t talk about nail polish at all, we have no way to know if he would have considered it assur. So there is actually more of a reason to say that nail polish could be assur.
btw, LF, I actually think this conversation has proven to be very productive….more on that later when I have more time.
LF – I guess there’s a reason everyone thinks I’m a guy 🙂
sounds like you’re the one with the bina yeseira…
Health – TLIK was talking about one particular case. In that case, it was the husband’s fault. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t cases in which it’s the wife’s fault.
You are obviously very young. The first president that I remember was Carter. I remember the Carter/Ford election campaign (I only knew about it because it was in the Weekly Reader), so I guess technically, I kind of knew that Ford was the President at the time.
Tznius, that’s not what he said. What he said was:
“Why are girls not allowed to look cute? You shouldn’t go out of your way to make yourself ugly.”
LF- got it. hey, I never said that women are better in every way (I agree with Joseph on that)…and I certainly never said that I am. (if I had “chapped” that beans = bina, I probably would have “chapped”.)
Tznius: I think you misunderstood RY’s comment. He was simply pointing out to you that there is a problem with the way you seem to view tznius. Based on what you wrote, it sounds like you think that girls are supposed to make themselves look ugly and it is untznius to look good. This is an incorrect understanding of tznius and it is unhealthy for a girl to think that way. RY was understandably concerned about you and was very kindly trying to help you by pointing out that you shouldn’t be thinking that way.
Also, there have been men commenting the whole time and you didn’t say anything to them, so there was no reason for RY to think that he was not allowed to comment. (I understand that you thought his comment was offensive, but as I wrote, that was based on a misunderstanding).
You make a lot of assumptions of other posters thoughts and motives. It might be best to allow them to speak on their own behalves.
Meno – that’s because your name is not haman.
NCB – who is the first president whom you remember?
LB – if you are asking me, I would recommend staying away from Chabad sources. I believe they have their own halachos and hashkafos. I wonder if there is a Breslov website you can use?
Person1 – true. And the last line was kind of sick. And certainly not true in my communities.
LB, it means “Go out and see”
Even in Europe, there were women who covered their hair. In fact, when someone from one the families of one of the Roshei Yeshiva of Telz was a kallah and she was still in Europe and her chosson was in America, he wrote her a letter in which he mentioned that she should make sure to cover her hair when she gets married. She was very offended and wrote to him asking him how he could possibly think that someone from her family would need such a reminder. He responded that she has no idea what things are like in America and there really was a reason for his concern.
The point is that even in Europe, there were always people who were aware that women had to cover their hair, and the wives of the Gedolim and Roshei Yeshivas did cover their hair. And the Rabbanim did tell women to cover their hair. In the US today, the daughters of the Gedolim do not braid their hair and the Rabbanim are not telling people to braid their hair.
Also, in Europe, most girls were not educated and did not know how to learn, so they had no way of knowing what the Shulchan Aruch and Mishna Brurah say (if the Mishna Berurah was even written yet).
GAW – the Mishna Berurah does not say that you have to braid your hair.
LF: Huh?
GAW: “P.S. You have still not answered my question above regarding your claim of “Un-Tznius” while agreeing that it is “not Assur”?”
I know. Sorry, I didn’t have a chance to yet. Basically I was differentiating between two categories:
1. Things that are clearly assur. These are things that everyone has to stay away from, and no one can claim, “I am just not on the level”. (with the possible exception of someone in the process of becoming frum). If someone else sees someone doing something in this category, he has an obligation to tell him to stop (subject to all the halachos and conditions of giving mussar).
2. Things that it is better not to do, but are not actually assur. These are things about which one claim that there are different levels and while they are striving for a higher level, they can claim not to be there yet. There are levels within tznius as there are within many areas. Internet use could be another example of something within this category. It is better not to use it, but if someone feels they need to, they are allowed to although they should strive to limit their usage.
GAW: “(Obviously now that you know there are Rishonim and Achronim who hold it is an Issur Mamash not to have a braid, you would continue to do so)”
I don’t think that most Poskim today say that. I have never heard of anyone saying such a thing.
How do you braid shoulder length hair? Don’t you need long hair to make braids?
“All the Yerushalmi girls have their hair braided.”
Do you mean braided or pony tails? Even if they do have their hair in braids (and not pony tails), they are the only ones. You won’t find it in Lakewood or in EY outside of Yerushalmim.
LB – nice! knew I could rely on you to come up with a nice one. Hope to be able to put it into practice :). Shkoyach!
For B’nos Avigail, check the website. I don’t know whether or not websites are an accurate way of telling about seminaries, but at least it lets you know what the school’s goals are and something about the type of teachers. The best way is to speak to girls who are or were there.
From the website, it sounds like it fits what you are looking for.
Machon Raaya, Darchei Binah and Ateres might all be good options for you. Possibly Binas but I don’t know enough about it.
I’m a bit confused about what you are looking for. From your description of what you are looking for, I wouldn’t think that Meohr is the best fit for you. I would think that all the other schools I mentioned fit your description better (probably B’nos Avigail also).
GAW: “So I ask again, before you are concerned about nail polish, do you have your hair in a braid?”
No one today holds there is a problem with not having your hair in a braid. Many do consider nail polish to be a problem.
Tznius, Winnie the Pooh & Takamamash – Good question about the nail polish. To clarify, I didn’t assume. As soon as I realized there might be an issue, I asked someone. I was told that if I would be uncomfortable going to a wedding that way and would remove it first, it’s considered a chatzitza.
My understanding is that for girls who normally wear nail polish, it is only a chatzitza if it is cracked. When it is not cracked, they consider nail polish to be a normal respectable thing to have on your hands, so it is not a chatzitza. At the time, for me, nail polish (in any color, and certainly if it was blue), was not something I normally wore and I did not consider it something normal and respectable (I was only wearing it as a “Purim costume”), so it was similar to the cracked nail polish of a girl who normally wears nail polish.
Health +1.
Additionally: “Also he will have to keep large sums of cash on hand making him a prime target for robbery.”
He probably doesn’t make a lot of money. That is why he is not paying child support.
“Hires a driver. Takes car services, taxis, buses.
This cuts into the number of jobs he can take and is an added expense making the business less profitable.”
1. If he lives in EY (which he does, in Lavender’s case),many people don’t have cars and rely on busses. They are not expensive. There are also places in the US where you can rely on public transportation.
2. Nowadays, a lot of people work online.
3. If he lives in EY (which he does) since everyone lives in aparment buildings, you have many people living within a small area, so he may be able to work within his community and walk to each job. I know a plumber who does this, and I’m sure there are many other plumbers and electricians who do this.
4. He can have a job that involves all of his customers coming to him.
5. If he has a job that involves earning a lot of money per job it might be worthwhile to take a taxi.
“Okay. How does he own one of these businesses when his licenses to operate either of these businesses are suspended. If caught operating with a suspended license he will be closed down and fined.”
Many people own businesses without licenses.
Another answer to all of the above questions is that he may not have a job at all. He may be learning full-time. There have been divorced guys who were suggested to me who were learning full-time. Often, those were the cases where it concerned me that they weren’t paying child support.
It came back – I guess you must have been editing it, because it seems to have an additional paragraph.
I am not sure, but I would think Ohr Someiach would be fine. I could see OU being a problem.
It’s back, and better than before! Thanks LB!
Glad you put in the addition. I’m especially glad you wrote this, “I know better thank G-d. My parents are divorced.”
That is one of the reasons to get divorced (in some cases). For the sake of your kids – so they will know better and not do a repeat performance, IY”H. Thanks LB.
I never understood what’s so terrible about split ends.
Apparently the post that my post was in response to disappeared – not sure why.
I only want a subtitle if you choose it, Lightbrite.
split ends – I think.
LB + 1,000!
I feel bad that you have to put up with all of the ridiculous and insensitive (albeit well-meaning) comments, and I would argue with each one, but I have no koach right now. I am glad that you are able to speak up and that others are as well.
Joseph, you haven’t answered my question. I’m not attacking – I might very well agree with you if I knew what your point is. When people bring Divrei Torah, they are generally trying to make some point. What is yours?
LB made the point that women are on a higher level spiritually. Are you trying to say that is not so? That it is so? That there is another side to it? Or are you trying to make another point altogether?
btw, I have been meaning to point out something to you about this thread. If I recall (and understood) correctly, you had said that your point in this thread was not to put down women – your point was that women are not better than men, and you felt that some people think so, so you were coming to show that is not true.
Which is fine, but if that is your point, it seems to me that you should make it more clear, because one could very easily draw a different impression from some of the posts in this thread.
If I recall correctly, most of the posts did fit in with that idea, but the title and OP are misleading. It is known that women have binah yeseirah and are on a higher level spiritually, so by saying that is not so, it sounds like you are trying to put down women, even if that is not your intention.
Is your concern that women think that the fact that they are on a higher spiritual level indicates that they are better than men (which is far from the truth and makes no sense)? If so, then maybe you should make that clear, because I think that many people reading this thread may not realize that and may be getting a very wrong impression.
I think that everyone knows that it is considered better in theory to be a boy since they have more Mitzvos, but if Hashem chose to make someone a girl that means that He wants them to be a girl and they are supposed to be happy with their tafkid and feel good about it and focus on the maalos of being a girl. It is not a girl’s job to focus on the maalos of being a boy – she needs to feel good about herself and her tafkid. So she needs to focus on the sources that talk about the maalos of being a girl. Especially today when most girls have a hard time with self-esteem and appreciating the maalos of being a girl.
Obviously, if she thinks that makes her better than men, that’s a problem. I don’t think anyone thinks that, but I could be wrong. If you think that there are women who think that and your point is to come out against that attitude, then please make it clear that that is your point, but don’t come out against the sources that emphasize women’s higher level. Thank you.
Joseph, in your own words, what point are you trying to make?
My point was that we won’t call it December 5th.
And I worked from the house so I didn’t need a car, so a suspended license wouldn’t have affected me.