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This was funny! Thanks LB!
no problem. thanks for apologizing (not that there was a need for it – you’re very sweet). When it comes to the learning/working issue, while I may have some general opinions about priorities, my only definite opinion is that no one should be against either learning or working or people who learn or people who work. There are so many things to take into account, and everyone has to make his own decision. I would never say that no one should work or no one should learn.
LB- is there such a place? Please tell me about it before next allergy season starts. I’m moving there for the Spring, b”n.
LF- there are plenty of male-dominated threads on politics. Those are the ones I basically stay away for lack of both interest and knowledge. Why don’t you join those? There are plenty of Martians there – way more than one-tenth.
LB – not at all. I would never say such a thing. I was responding to a particular comment someone had made. I think it had to do with an implication that men who learn are more likely to use the Internet. I disagree with that; I think that in general, men who work are more likely to use the internet. And I think it’s ridiculous to imply that the Kollel system leads to more Internet use. But that doesn’t mean that no one should work.
DY – they took out the main part, so you will have to utilize all the “dan l’kaf zchus” tools in your power to figure out that I had a logical response even if you don’t know what it is.
They deleted my response, but I will try to give a short response to some of your points:
“So claiming I don’t understand what you meant because I don’t know the context is the same as someone claiming you misunderstood their intention.”
edit
And by the way, if Shimon would in fact tell me that he hadn’t expressed himself clearly and I had misunderstood him, I would believe him (as I would expect you to believe me in this case).
DY – apparently they deleted my post in which I responded to you.
“DY – I would appreciate it if you could see the posts I linked so you will have an idea of what I was talking about. Thanks!”
Please note that this was merely meant as a ps to a much longer thread that has not yet been posted in which I responded to your post.
I would still appreciate it if you would see the linked posts but I don’t want you to think that I didn’t respond to your post.
DY – I would appreciate it if you could see the posts I linked so you will have an idea of what I was talking about. Thanks!
“I know all kinds of people and I wouldn’t call anybody Frum from the wrong kind!”
You made it sound like you know all these people who are doing all sorts of bad things on the internet. That’s what I made the comment in response to.
I used Cubicles, but it hasn’t been open so long, so I used the library before that. Even once it opened, there were times when I needed internet and it was closed so I had to go to the library.
I used Cubicles a lot, and there weren’t so many people there. I often had the room to myself and it rarely happened that there weren’t enough computers.
I don’t know who most of the men were there, but from conversations I overheard, I think some of them (if not all) were baalei batim who were there for work purposes.
They only opened it up for people who need it for purposes such as work. Their point was not to encourage people to use internet who would not be using it otherwise, so if they saw that it was mainly being used by Yeshiva bochurim, they would have closed it down. (actually I don’t think I ever saw any Yeshiva bocurim there except once when someone came with his sisters to sign up for HUD and he needed my help because he didn’t know much about computers).
In any case, their computers are very well filtered and they are not being used for anything inappropriate.
Tznius – I think you might be too late.
DY – I understand where you are coming from. The thing is that you don’t know the context in which my comments are made and you have no way of knowing the context. The comments were directed to the moderator in response to things that she said to me that were not posted (at least part of the conversation wasn’t).
I realize the post without the context sounds funny, but please be “dan l’kaf zchus” that in the context it doesn’t mean what it sounds like it means w/o the context.
I just want to make it clear that I was not claiming that I have a monopoly on RC skills. My point (which perhaps wasn’t expressed as clearly as it could have been) was that I should not be accused of assuming things every time that I happen to understand something that someone else doesn’t and I should not be told that it’s impossible for me to understand something that someone else doesn’t.
While I do have good RC skills, expressing myself is not my strong point, and I did not mean what you think I meant.I wish you would try to be dan me l’kaf zchus on that.
edit
if you want some context to understand better, you can see the following posts. But again, there is much more to it than that.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/tznius-5/page/2#post-636649
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/tznius-5/page/2#post-636655
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/tznius-5/page/2#post-636659
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/tznius-5/page/2#post-636672
Tznius – I thought that you are not sure what type the Yeshiva is and that is why you are trying to find out.
tznius – well now you can rest assurred that she didn’t mean it the way you took it.
“You are being asked not to put words in other’s mouths. Whether you perceive yourself as doing it or not, that is what has been happening.”
And that is precisely where reading comprehension skills come in and that was exactly my point. You are assuming that I am putting words in other’s mouths.
Well considering that in some cases I know the people and have access to them I am surprised you insist that I am wrong in saying you are speaking out of turn. Here is an example. It will be the only example.
“RY was understandably concerned about you and was very kindly trying to help you by pointing out that you shouldn’t be thinking that way.”
How can you claim to know RY was concerned or was kindly trying to help? How can you not understand that this is you making an assumption of ‘his’ intent? I think it is pretty clear. Which is why you can either accept it, or not, but the conversation is no longer productive
Person1 accused Person2 of doing something that I don’t think that Person2 did. So I defended Person2 and tried to explain to Person1 what Person2 had said in order that: 1. Person2 wouldn’t feel bad 2. Others reading this wouldn’t think badly of Person2 and 3. Person1 would no longer feel upset about what she thought that Person2 said.
I was just trying to make shalom and take away from someone’s public embarrassment. I was trying not to be like the people at Kamtza and Bar Kamtza’s feast. I am not the only one here who does things like that.
In fact, I am pretty sure that DY does it all the time. Which is something that I always respected about him/you.
And I do think, DY, that if you go back and look at the context of the conversation you would be the first one to agree that I did the right thing. But I do not want to assume anything (even though I was always taught that one should see the good in others). So maybe you wouldn’t. I would be very interested in hearing your opinion in any case since I know (sorry, I mean think) you will deliver it politely.
Even though I don’t like being attacked, I suppose I should be glad that now the focus was taken off the person I felt was being accused and was trying to defend. I don’t think I’m on that madreigah, but I suppose I can try to be.
“Your perception is not accurate! Where do you buy those rose colored glasses?!?”
I think you need a new set of glasses.
“And btw, I do know people who wouldn’t go near the internet, but it’s not the average!”
You obviously know the wrong people. Any time I needed to use the internet and the library was closed, I had the hardest time trying to find someone with internet. I remember having to call a friend in Brooklyn to look something up for me.
“It was that you can’t really expect anyone to roll over and accept your interpretation”
I never said that they should. My point was that they shouldn’t attack me. And it had to do with the moderators because I was responding to the moderators.
DY – I know. That wasn’t my point at all, c”v. That was totally not what I meant at all. Like I said, there was a context. I may not have explained myself as clearly as I would have liked. I deliberately didn’t respond the first time because I wanted time to think about how to phrase things, but once the comment was repeated, I felt a need to respond.
My basic point was that if someone understands something differently than you did, that doesn’t mean that you can accuse them of making assumptions.
I was bringing in the RC example because I was trying to show that two people can understand things differently and one can be wrong and the other can be right. There is one right answer to every question on a RC test even though most people don’t get them all right.
If I get an answer wrong on an RC test and you get it right, I can’t then accuse you of making assumptions just because you saw something that I didn’t see. I also can’t claim that you have a different opinion than I do. Not everything is a matter of opinion. There is such a thing as reading comprehension skills and if someone doesn’t get something, it doesn’t give them a right to attack the other person. And I do not appreciate being attacked every time someone doesn’t understand me.
You are not being attacked. You are being asked not to speak for other people, When you chose to ignore the request and it is repeated, you are taking that as an attack. You are not being attacked. You are being asked not to put words in other’s mouths. Whether you perceive yourself as doing it or not , that is what has been happening. When it stops, so will the requests.
I know – I was just trying to figure out the significance (and yeah, I know there isn’t any – I was just joking).
Is there a difference between Lishmoa and lishmo’a? The second one sounds more Israeli maybe – dagesh on the last syllable? Is that the difference? Or is it just meant to be prettier?
Tznius – check out RY’s subtitle.
“RY is a she. Does that change your assumptions about what she meant? -Different Mod”
Shkoyach! I was about to write to you and ask if you think it’s such a good idea to let people pretend to be different genders than they are in real life, when I noticed her subtitle. Was that always there and I didn’t notice it, or is it new?
She had posted that she was a she, and your mistake convinced me to make it obvious. -DM
True. I suppose it’s good I’m getting practice in the CR at disagreeing with people.
“When someone saves your life, or your Jewish brethrens lives, they’re your heroes.
If you give me dates other countries saved Yidden or gave their lives protecting Yidden, I’d certainly commemorate them. I commemorate those in Europe who protected/saved Yidden during the Holocaust.”
Very commendable. I was under the impression that you only used the word “our heroes” to refer to American soldiers because you identify as an American. Maybe I was wrong. It’s not all that important either way.
DY – I got your point. You missed mine. It would probably be impossible or at least difficult for you to get it since it has to do with an ongoing conversation between me and the moderators. There was a context to my statements. I have no koach to explain right now (just finished a long post to the moderators) and I’m not sure there’s a reason to since it isn’t really nogeiah to anyone besides the moderators.
“I would certainly refer to anyone, from anywhere, who saved (or even protects) millions or hundreds of thousands of Yidden as heroes. I think British Yidden also credit the American armed forces of the WWII era as heroes.”
Precisely – “heroes”, not “our heroes”. Again, maybe I’m nitpicking but it strikes me as significant that you used the term “our heroes” when referring to the Americans and “heroes” when referring to the others and when you referred to the way that the Brits would refer to the Americans.
Also, do you commemorate the days when other countries helped Yidden?
Health, I was also talking about Lakewood. I lived there for seven years and got to know many people there. You obviously know different people than I do. I suggest you change your friends and acquaintances. There are so many wonderful Torahdik people in Lakewood there is no reason for you not to know them and to know the ones you know.
And yes, I actually used the computers in the library many times (I am practically the only person I know who does) so I know there are some Frum men there but it is very few and a very insignificant part of the Lakewood population.
Again, I suggest you change your acquaintances. There are hundreds of ehrliche B’nei Torah who don’t do anything but learn and have no idea how to use a computer. I suggest you get to know them.
It also sounds like it’s very intellectual and the hashkafa sounds like intellectually based hashkafa. That is probably why people were recommending it.
Avi: “In any case, I must agree with Joseph (difficult as it is for me to type these words – LOL)”
Hey, Health just agreed with me on another thread. If Health can agree with me, then anyone can agree with anyone.
Joseph – I was assuming that that was your conscious intention. However, it seemed to me (and perhaps I am wrong) that even if that was your conscious intention, your words may have proved otherwise.
My proof was the fact that it is only American Jews who say “our heroes”. It it were only about the Yidden in Europe and not also about identifying as an American, then all Jews would be referring to them as “our heroes”.
It sounds like your response is that you think that British Jews should also say “our heroes”. That is a good response if that is what you really think. But that only works if you do in fact refer to all goyim from all nationalities who have helped Yidden as “our heroes”.
Maybe I’m wrong and maybe you do. Do you?
Avi & Joseph – I am not arguing against the hakaros hatov aspect. I am only nitpicking regarding the perceived over-identification with America. But I may be wrong. In any case, the hakaros hatov is certainly admirable and more important than the exact lashon used.
“I don’t disagree, but the counter theory is that the yeshiva guy is often (not always) in a better environment.”
DY +1
DY,lol. They would have to prove it to me. I’m open to hearing other person’s explanations. If they listen to me explain what I am basing my so-called assumptions on and can explain why they think they are not accurate, I am willing to hear. However, that is not what happened in the specific cases that I was referring to. There was simply an assumption made that I was making an assumption instead of assuming that I might have a basis for my comments. In some cases, even after proving my point, there was simply silence on the other end.
btw, you are definitely one of the higer scorers in the CR when it comes to reading comprehension.
“My theory is – if you have an outlet, then there’s less chance of having unfiltered internet!”
Maskim, but an outlet doesn’t have to mean working. If the point is to avoid Internet, other outlets (such as sports) would be more helpful than working.
I’m not disputing the fact that there may be people who should be working (at least part-time) who aren’t. I’m just disputing the fact that people who work are less likely to use Internet than those who learn.
Personally, most people (or maybe everyone) I know who is learning should be learning and takes their learning seriously and is not using Internet.
There may be those who aren’t like that (BH, those aren’t the people I know), but there are certainly many who do.
29 – someone who claims to use internet or watch movies is more likely to be watching movies or using internet than someone who claims not to and whose references say that they are sure he doesn’t. Between 99% – 100% of people who claim to use Internet or watch movies do so. I don’t know the percentages of those who claim not to and really do but it is certainly far less.
Health – most people who are learning don’t use Internet at all. Anyone who does use Internet is automatically exposed to bad things. I doubt that you can find someone who uses Internet on a regular basis (especially if they have to use it for work) who never saw something they shouldn’t have. I have friends who are super-careful about these things who inadvertently saw bad things on the Internet when they were using it for work purposes.
GAW: “To quote the mods:
You make a lot of assumptions of other posters thoughts and motives. It might be best to allow them to speak on their own behalves.”
That comment was actually made based on an incorrect assumption. I haven’t responded yet because it will take time to figure out how to phrase things in a way that will be accurate but not offensive. Basically, in the cases that they were talking about, there were no assumptions being made. It had to do with reading comprehension and logic skills which are things that I happen to be an expert in and have been hired to teach. Based on a test that I took (and the reason I was asked to teach these subjects), my reading comprehension and logic skills are better than aprroximately 94% of the population. That means that approximately 94% of the population can read the same thing that I am and not understand what they are reading. So they will think that what I am reading is an assumption (unless they listen to my explanation and are able to understand it).
In this case, you are correct that it would have been an assumption if I had written, “you are saying it is assur to wear braids”. That is why I did not phrase it that way, but instead wrote “It SEEMS..” Perhaps I should have added the words “to me”. What I meant was that was how I had understood your words.
I no longer remember exactly what that was in response to or what the point was, so when I have a chance I will have to go back and reread the thread. However, I think it may have had to do with the fact that you were making a comparison to women not covering their hair. But I will check later, bli neder.
Comlink – got it now. I was confused because of LB’s response to you.
29 – not sure what you mean. Are you saying that the cases you know of all involved guys who were hiding their Internet use and no one knew about it?
Health – almost everyone who works nowadays uses Internet. Almost everyone I know who uses Internet works. Most men I know who are learning davka don’t use Internet. It is precisely because so many people work and because Internet is generally needed for work that so many Frum people use Internet.
That is actually one of the reasons why someone SHOULD stay in learning or klei Kodesh.
Yichusdik – avadai! I don’t think DY was saying otherwise (unless I missed something). I think that is the point. That Torah teaches us to have good middos which means trying to work on communication and respect and being dan l’kaf zchus.
Additionally, being aware that you are doing it for a higher purpose and that you share a common goal with your spouse should make a difference. It seems to me that knowing that the purpose of your marriage is not stam for your own enjoyment but for the purpose of building a home of Torah should help someone to get through the rough times and keep going even when things aren’t going so well and your spouse is being annoying and you feel like you would be better off without him.
.
Daas Yachid: “Yichusdik, my point isn’t statistics, and your quiting statistics is not very meaningful because there are so many factors which can skew the results.
My point is that living according to the Torah is the best possible way to have shalom bayis.”
Daas Yachid: “TLIK, sure there are fakers, but aren’t there erlich’e Yidden as well?
Aren’t we, as a whole, better off? Or are you so cynical that you think the vast majority of Frum Yidden are fakers?”
DY – +1!
Maskim.
Was this in reference to something?
Does anyone ever choose their own subtitles or are they always chosen by the moderators? Who chose yours, LB?
“I said the drastic increase, and in 75% of cases around me it was absolutely the case.”
Another reason why it’s a good idea to try to go out with guys who don’t watch movies or use the Internet if possible.
But again, hakaros hatov is an admirable attribute and shkoyach for having it. I just would have phrased things slightly differently
Wow, I think that’s the first time I ever got a +1 from you! And on the topic of divorce no less. So I guess there can be things we agree on.
“If an English Jew was saved by British soldiers, I think he’d correctly refer to them as his heroes.”
That doesn’t contradict what I said – it only proves my point. You aren’t referring to the American soldiers as “our heroes” because they saved Yidden in Europe. If that were the case, then the British Jews would refer to them as “our heroes” as well and would also be celebrating Pearl Harbor day.
It seems that you are referring to them as “our heroes” because you consider yourself to be American, and that is what I was objecting to.
I know what Rav Avigdor Miller Zatsal says about the American Flag. I may be wrong, but I happen not to agree. While hakaras hatov is important, I think that it is important to remember that we are not Americans. And I may be wrong, but I never heard of any other Gedolim saying that we should put out an American flag.
It is brought down that Moshe Rabeinu was punished for referring to himself as a Mitzri. It is important to remember that we are Jews and not Americans, imho.
“Hashem made American soldiers His agents to protect Jews. Hakaros Hatov is a Jewish attribute.”
Maskim.