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It is a Mitzvah if the purpose is to reenergize.
I don’t know – I don’t see it as so hard. To me it’s a basic concept of Yiddishkeit and one that I was aware of before seminary.
And the fact that you need to reenergize doesn’t meant that your Avodas Hashem is not important – people are complex and have emotions and bodies that need taken of in order to function and be ovdei Hashem. That is how Hashem made us.
I suspect that boys may be different than girls in terms of how they relate to these things. I think this may have to do with girls being more “spiritual” and into hashkafa and boys being more black-and-white and into halacha. I think for a boy it may be harder to relate to a non-Mitzvah activity as part of his Avodas Hashem. This may be related to the fact that for a boy, his Avodas Hashem is mainly about learning Torah and it can be problematic for him to ever do anything but learn (unless he has a very good justification). For a girl, her purpose is more about doing everything l’sheim Shamayim (as opposed to learning Torah and performing clear-cut Mitzvos).
Or maybe, everyone is different, and different people have a harder/easier time with different things.
But I think I know many people who live this way (at least on a basic level), including children. And I don’t think it’s a problem to give it over to seminary girls. And I do think it’s something that many (if not most or all) people are capable of. I could be wrong, but I think that people who think it’s beyond them are either underestimating themselves or don’t understand what the concept means.
“Possible lack of tznius is no biggie?”
maskim.
Tznius – I think you really should check carefully if Touro will really be better than where you are now. It may be or it may be not – I wouldn’t know enough to be able to tell you. There are a lot of different programs and locations for Touro, and it seems that they are all very different.
Will there be more Frum girls there than where you are now? Are they the type of Frum girls whom it would be better for you to spend time with than the ones where you are now?
What are the goyim there like? Are they the type whom you will be less likely to spend time with? Some of the Touro branches are apparently full of non-American goyim. That may actually be an advantage, since you would be less likely to be influenced by them.
ZD: “He also doesnt totally understand how it works by that statement, you cannot turn off Amazon Fufillment for 25 hours, Which is how the real money is made on Amazon”
That’s irrelevant if he feels that it is wrong to have an online business running for 7 days. Parnassah comes from Hashem alone, and you will gain nothing by doing improper hishtadlus (see Chovos Halevavos and other Mussar sefarim). I don’t know anything about the halachos involved, but apparently Rav Wolfson (if he was quoted correctly) considers this problematic and hence, unhelpful.
Where is there a yichud problem? You mean in the car?
“Dunno if the Rebbe said that.”
okay, I’m not mekabel that he said that. And I hope my words aren’t taken as Motzi Shem Ra. I was just saying that if he in fact said that, then…. But I was not trying to imply that he said that, since I don’t know.
And I am also not mekabel that all (or maybe any) Chabadnikim say that. I am just saying that if they (or anyone else) does, it MAY be a serious problem.
Person1: “That’s a lot to expect from yourself though”
I’m very curious about this sentence. Do you really think that is something so hard? I’m asking seriously, because I want to understand what you mean by that.
Do you mean that it’s hard not to think about yourself? If that’s what you mean, that’s not what the Rambam means (according to the one my Rav explained it to me).
The only purpose in life is to serve Hashem. That doesn’t mean that we can’t or shouldn’t think about ourselves. We have to do things for ourselves in order to be able to serve Hashem. But if we know that our only purpose in life is to serve Hashem, then everything we do is part of that.
BigGolem – One of the two times in my life that I played games on a date was actually in Queens. I think we were in some kind of Cafe, but I don’t remember what or where it was.
Yichusdik – I was not the one who said that Internet is the reason for divorce. I actually did not think it was the culprit in most cases that I know of, but I was willing to be open-minded and acknowledge that it is possible that those people who are saying that Internet is the major reason for the extreme surge in divorce are right. I do not know enough to know if it is or not, and I am willing to acknowledge even though I haven’t seen that.
There’s a publication that comes out every week that has a listing of apartments for rent. I think it’s called Masa u’matan. It comes with the BP Weekly. If you know anyone in Lakewood, you can ask them to either give it to you or check for you. I think it comes out on Wednesdays.
There are short term rentals. They are more expensive though. I’m not sure of the prices because I never did short term. You may be able to find someone who will let you do a long term rental for a one-month trial. That way, you won’t have to pay short-term rental price.
The prices for long-term go up and down, so I can’t really tell you. There are better seasons and worse seasons. When I was there, it was hard to find for less than app. $650 – $700 (but I also had certain limitations regarding where I could live).
The prices were going down at the end of last year, so you might be able to find for less. You also may be able to find cheaper (app. $500-$550) if you are willing to live further out or in a room (as opposed to a whole apartment).
I did find that when I spoke to potential landlords, they were often open to giving me deals and lowering the price because I was single so they saw me as being more long-term (yeah, I also thought that was funny).
Health lives there now so he can probably tell you more about current prices.
I am curious about your statement about taxis, Person1. I don’t know what nationality you are (American, Israeli or other), but in my dating experience in Israel, the guys don’t order taxis for me; I take the bus home.
I mostly go out with Americans though, not Israelis. From a few conversations I’ve had with people (including the story in my above post as well as your comment), I have the impression that maybe by Israelis, it is more the norm to order a taxi. I know two girls (one was born here and the other came when she was starting high school) who told me that they would be really upset if a guy didn’t get a taxi for them.
I was very surprised by that! Do you know if that’s really the norm by Israelis?
The truth is that I have usually lived in far-out places so a taxi would have been expensive, but I think this was the case even when I lived more centrally.
“In any case the guy would order a cab for the girl and accompany her home (unless distance would not allows)”
Reminds me of a funny shidduch story (I know it’s not the right thread):
I went out with a guy who was more Israeli than American. He told me that the girls he goes out with sometimes think he’s cheap because he doesn’t take them home by taxi. One time he went out with a girl and she ordered a taxi for herself (instead of taking a bus). She got really upset when he asked if he get a ride in the taxi since his house was on the way and she was ordering a taxi anyhow.
Another time, a guy I went out with ordered a taxi for himself but not for me.
Wow, you are really patient! Hope you get an answer soon.
LB- in terms of intentions, the main thing is to think in general about how much you love Hashem and how you want to serve Him and how your purpose in life is to serve Him.
If you are generally conscious of the fact that your entire purpose in life is to get close to Hashem, then on some level everything you are doing becomes part of that. Even when you are eating or sleeping it is all for the general purpose of being a healthy, happy person and the reason for being a happy, healthy, person is to serve Hashem.
The point is that you don’t have to worry about what you are thinking about each second. There may be such a level but it’s not one you need to think about right now. As long as you know in general that your purpose in life is to serve Hashem, that is enough to give meaning to everything you do.
mw13 +1!
caramel
Joseph: “If the American yeshivish oilem changed their dating system to the way the Eretz Yisroel yeshivish oilem dates (as I understand it from lilmod’s description), a lot of the tznius problems inherent in the American system would be resolved.”
The Yeshivish people that I know in America date the same way. At least that’s what my friend’s daughter did. The only difference was the car part. In Israel, most people don’t have cars, so you have to take a bus to the hotel lobby. In most places in the US, you can’t get around by bus, so the guy has to pick the girl up by car.
That makes sense. Although I did find it to be a good warm-up at the beginning of a first date.
BG- I could probably write a book. Or maybe a few. I don’t have time right now, but b”n, I will try to get back to you when I have time to think about it.
Joseph – Thank you for asking me for my opinion.
My feeling in general on this topic is that everyone is different and everyone needs to do things the way that works for them, and people shouldn’t be so quick to judge the way others do things.
Of course, there may be some ways of doing things that are theoretically more ideal than others but they may not work for everyone.
Shidduchim is a very sensitive matter, and it is very important that everyone feels that he can do things the way that is right for him and that he doesn’t feel judged or looked down on for it.
This goes both ways – I can’t stand it when people criticize others for only going out 4 times and I can’t stand it when people are criticized for needing to go out for 3 months. Everyone is different, and people shouldn’t be so judgmental.
Personally, I think that the reason I am not married yet is because I was forced to do things in ways that were wrong for me.
I just want to announce that I just saw the most GORGEOUS sunrise while davening netz (sort-of) on my mirpeset. Whoever missed it missed out on something spectacular! “Ma rabu maasecha Hashem!”
btw, if anyone knows a guy for me that is so clearly matim for me that I don’t have to go out more than 4 times I would be very happy! In fact, if I could just skip the 4 times, I would be even happier!
“It was a Chanukah gift!”
from who?
Lightbrite, first of all, you are talking about very high levels that most people besides the Gedolei hador aren’t on. Take things s l o w l y.
Second of all, even on the highest level, there is no problem with thinking about one food while eating another. While making the bracha, one should try not to think about anything else, but it’s a high level that most people are still striving for.
Try to have kavana for one word of each bracha you make. If you can do that, that’s awesome!
BG- like I said previously, if it’s only for part of the date, I think it’s fine.
LB – You should be doing it because it’s a Mitzvah, not in order to bring Mashiach. But that can be something that you have in mind as well.
c”v, I didn’t say that P’ru u’rvu is a lower level. I was referring to the idea that a person has to have as many children as possible, and I was saying that it MIGHT not be in the same halachic category as the Mitzvah of Kibbud Av v’Eim. The fact that they are both halachos does not mean they are necessarily in the same halachic category.
There are things that you are supposed to give others mussar for and things you aren’t. Even if Kibbud Av v’Eim is something that you are supposed to give others mussar for it doesn’t necessarily follow that having as many kids as possible is something that you have to give others mussar for (which was the topic under discussion).
And Joseph, I’m still waiting to hear how you met your wife.
BG- +1
In EY, it is very similar to the way he described.
LF – I just reread your post. I’m not even sure what your point is. What you are talking about is shidduch dating. Joseph’s OP was about how shidduch dating is wrong. That is what I was arguing against.
Completely muttar. Why would you think it’s assur?
Most board games involve thinking so you can’t talk. With bowling, it’s easier to talk.
Even more.
LF – I’ve always said that I’d be more than happy to do things the Chassidish way. If I knew someone who was capable of finding my zivug for me, I’d be happy not to have to date. But I don’t, so I have to.
But what you are describing sounds like a regular shidduch date to me. Except that it’s a sit-in instead of going to a hotel lobby. Otherwise, it’s the same thing. Sometimes shidduch dates are sit-in’s too which would make it the same thing.
Regarding Yitzchak loving Rivka after marriage, I once heard a shiur about how by Yaakov it says that he loved Rochel before he married her. This shows that everyone is different, and different people need to be at a different stage before marriage.
I very much believe that everyone is different and everyone needs to date differently. A person’s age, personality and personal experiences have a very big effect on what they need. I have known people who needed more time before they got engaged and people who needed less, and it had no connection to how Frum or Yeshivish or tznius they were.
I knew a couple who were extremely Frum and tznius and took a while to get to a decision and people put pressure on them. Her parents were divorced and he had lost his father the year before. I really don’t think it was right of people to put pressure on them. Everyone needs a different amount of time and people shouldn’t put pressures on others. There are so many broken engagements and divorces, so it clearly is possible for people to decide too quickly.
Honestly, I have no clue how long I will take since I am not there yet, but it makes sense that at my age when I’m mainly going out with divorced guys, dating is going to be very different than it is for sheltered 18 year old girls who have parents who take care of everything for them.
I’ve spoken to one of the Gedolei Hador about dating and the things he was saying about how shidduchim should be approached and what I should be doing were VERY different than what you are saying. Probably because I’m not 18, so it is different.
LB – it’s Kavim spelled with a ?
not a ?
It means portions or measures. It’s brought down that there are 10 measures of speech and women took nine of them.
But now LF is claiming that I stole the last one as well.
You seem to have something left…
That doesn’t mean that they have the same halachic obligation. There are different categories and levels in halacha.
Also, there will be a lot of Sefarim in the ladies’ section so I can look up all the sources quoted in the CR.
In my dream shul, there will be no men in the ladies’ section even when it’s not Shabbos davening time. That way, if I happen to want to go to shul during the week or if I want a place to learn, I can.
Tznius- for sure! I just meant that you should check if there really are more Frum girls in the program. My impression was that there are Frum girls in your school, so I meant you should make sure that Touro really does have more.
In any case, I would imagine that Touro is better in terms of the various hashkafa and halacha issues that can come up in college.
LB- there is a reason why Chabad and the last Lubavitcher Rebbe were considered problematic by most/many Orthodox Jews. If the Rebbe said that people should daven to him, that may have something to do with it.
Oh,so is the problem that the GUYS you want to date don’t want to go out yet? I thought you were talking about your female friends. Which is it?
Biggolem – thanks! Yeah, I don’t think I’d want to marry someone who can’t handle it if I beat him.
Joseph, I want to meet your wife. I like tzadeikises. Can I meet her? Maybe she can come to Israel with LB?
Isn’t it nine? We didn’t take all of them – we left you one!
LF:
“How do spiritually inclined females even think of going out, dating, PLAYING GAMES?!? Shouldn’t they be on a higher dargah?!? Shouldn’t they suffice with a mere glance?”
It’s all relative. “more than” doesn’t translate as perfect.
Thanks LB 🙂
Well then by that logic all girls should get married at 13 and all boys should get married at 14 whether or not they want to or feel ready. Also, everyone should get fertility treatments even if they don’t need them so that everyone will have triplets every year.
LF – Maybe you should speak to all those people who always pressure me to keep going out even though I can tell from the first date that it’s not shayich!!!