Lilmod Ulelamaid

Tznius is not more detailed than it used to be. I have been out of school for many years, but my impression is that today there is a strong emphasis on teaching about the concept of tznius and the “inside” aspect.

The reason for the seeming focus on details is twofold, in my opinion:

1. There are halachos that are not being followed. People should look at the halacha to cover your knees the same way that they look at the halacha not to turn on a light on Shabbos. It should not be considered normal for someone to consider herself Frum and to keep all other halachos but be walking around in skirts that are clearly above her knees.

You can’t expect everyone to be on the level of being able to have the highest level of “inside tznius”. That’s a level to strive for.It’s like expecting everyone to have complete kavana when they daven. But you can and should expect everyone to follow the basic clear-cut halachos of tznius.

Just like by davening, the ikar is really the kavana, but we teach everyone to at least say the words, hoping the kavana will come. And by fast days, where the real point is the teshuva and it is brought down that one is missing the point if he fasts but doesn’t do teshuva, and yet, we still tell everyone to at least fast and we hope the teshuva will come. But we don’t tell people to stop fasting until they have the proper mindset.

Perhaps it’s true that with tznius the main thing is the internal aspect, but you still have to keep the external laws. Not only that, but you can’t get to the internal concept of tznius until you are dressed tzniusly. You can’t be tznius on the inside if you are not tznius on the outside. On the other hand, being tznius on the outside can bring a person to be tznius on the inside. In fact, I disagree that tznius has become a totally external thing. It is impossible for a person to be tznius on the outside without its affecting her internal sense of tznius.

I have heard people say that others relate to them differently and that they feel differently about themselves when they are dressed tzniusly. If I’m not mistaken, I think you wrote something to that effect, LB.

ZD -I actually do agree with you (and Golfer). I was just being nit-picky about the details. But you do have a good point. And you’re right Golfer – I suppose I should look at it as a compliment – I never thought of it that way before!

” So, join forces and elect a “frum” majority government.”

That is why most Frum people do vote, but there are not enough Frum people to have a Frum majority. Also, even if there were a Frum majority, that wouldn’t make the government Frum as long as there are not-Frum people in the Knesset.

In addition to what I wrote previously (that I think they differentiate between the current government and the State as a whole), I think that in some cases, the government was okay with or even supported the settlements originally and considered it good for the country. The settlers were considered to be putting their lives at risk for the defense of the country and then felt betrayed when the government evacuated.

I’m not 100% sure of this though, although I do think it was the case. There may be people here who know more about it.

I’ve tried, but moderators delete. Maybe if something else does, they won’t.

Rules for “V’sein tal u’matar l’vracha”:

1. If you already said Hashem’s Name at the end of “Barech Aleinu”, you don’t go back. You say it in Shema Koleinu instead (Dirshu Siman 117, f.n.#20)

2.If you forget in Shema Koleinu, as long as you didn’t say the word “Retzei” yet, you go back to Shema Koleinu (SA 117/5)

3. If you already said the word “Retzei”, you go back to the beginning of “Bareich Aleinu” (ibid).

4. If you already said the Yihi ratzon at the end of Elokei Netzor, you go back to the beginning of Shemona Esrei (SA & MB 18).

LB- I think you’re not allowed to. It can be very hard not to.

The best is to try to keep your eyes in your Siddur. Once you look up and see someone, it’s very hard not to acknowledge them and it feels rude even if it’s what you are supposed to do.

That’s more by Israelis. Not by Americans. Even by Israelis, they don’t all wear sandals. I was on my way to a Chasuna, so I wouldn’t have been wearing sandals in any case (part of the reason I wasn’t wearing a pony tail).

The Chardal (Chareidi Dati Leumi) usually wear socks, but it is true that you can still usually tell the difference. They usually wear tichels, not sheitels, and different style clothes. Extremely tznius usually.

If I were Dati Leumi, I wouldn’t look any different than I do now.

When I first came to EY, I didn’t know what these things meant. I was here for many years before I decided that I’m Chareidi. I could have just as easily decided that I was Dati Leumi (as many of my friends did), and it wouldn’t have changed the way I look. I have friends who decided to be Chareidi and friends who decided to be Dati Leumi, and it didn’t change the way that anyone looks.

She said she’s 482 lbs.

And I can’t imagine he’d be willing to wear braids for any shidduch!

Thanks mw13! Glad someone finally noticed my post!

In Eretz Yisrael, it’ considered appropriate to wear socks in a Chareidi neighborhood.

In both countries, it’s unlikely that anyone will bother you (well, except for the fact that will always be people who will bother you wherever you are. I had a lady come over to me at the Tachana Merkazit and yell at me for not having my hair in a pony tail. I guess she didn’t notice all the people around who were a lot less tznius than me.) but that’s not really the issue. It’s a question of what’s appropriate.

It is generally considered appropriate to wear socks in a Chareidi neighborhood in Israel or the US and there may be a minhag hamakom issue involved. Certainly, in Geula/Meah Shearim, even most not-Frum girls are makpid to wear socks.

I just read somewhere (can’t remember where and I don’t remember if it was Jewish or not) that there has to be an initial chemistry to start with to start things off but that disappears eventually. It’s just meant to start you off to build the real relationship which hopefully is lasting.

I think that’s kind of similar to what LB wrote and what I wrote previously. But you would have to ask married people if it’s true or not.

You should wear knee socks or tights when visiting any Chareidi community in EY.

“I am planning on wearing tights and having my feet totally covered. Just makes me nervous thinking about what if it’s not enough?”

Why in the world wouldn’t that be enough?

Wearing sneakers is not a problem (I did it before I had a chance to buy new shoes :)). But why would you have to?

Akuperma – +1. I would also add that the settlers (who are not Chareidi) probably also don’t really hold by the medina – at least the way it is now.

In any case, the way they feel is that the land belongs to us (to Am Yisrael), and the medina does not have the right to make such laws, so the laws are illigitimate. I guess it’s somewhat similar to the way that most Frum people would feel if the medina made laws that are against the Torah. In fact, they may feel that this falls in the same category since it’s assur to give EY away to the Goyim and it’s a Mitzvah to settle EY. Additionally, they may feel that it’s a pikuach nefesh issue to have Yidden living in these places so that the Arabs don’t overtake us.

He doesn’t want a fat girl. And he’s not Chassidish, and somehow, I can’t imagine he wears braids.

But other than that…. great idea!

It seems to me that it’s a chessed. And a big one!

In terms of your uncertainty based on the fact that it wasn’t really needed and he could have hired someone, I would have to ask you, “if that is the case, then why did he ask you to do it?” He must have had a reason. Generally, if someone asks someone to do something, there is a reason. Maybe he likes your work the best and that’s why he asked you.

In any case, it seems to me that just about any time that someone asks you to do something for them and you say yes, it is a Mitzvah as long as it’s not at someone else’s expense.

Well, I know it once autocorrected a mod’s post from tznius to genius, so maybe you are right 🙂

I would just be wary of trusting any political leader too much. “lev melachim b’yad Hashem”. We should daven to Hashem that he should be a good leader, but any trust we have should be towards Hashem helping us and not directed towards Trump personally.

I guess I was also surprised because some of the issues you had with Clinton apply to Trump as well. Even if you want to claim that Clinton is worse (which I’m not interested in getting into), you definitely can’t claim that Trump is so great.

I guess I just feel that from the little I know about him, he doesn’t sound like someone whom Torah Jews should be praising too much. Of course, we hope that Hashem will make things work out well, but again that should be because we trust Hashem, and not because we think Trump is so great.

so I’m confused -are you saying the discussion was about referring to a developmentally disabled person as retarded (as opposed to if you were to call PBA retarded)