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Big Golem – I can’t tell you what Shloimel meant, but I can tell you what that means from my own experience. Over the past more than 2 decades, I have gotten a lot of mussar regarding dating and marriage. I have been told a lot of things, including a lot of contradictory things, and a lot of ridiculous things, and a lot of insulting things. There have probably also been some intelligent things mixed in, but unfortunately few and far-between.
However, it has almost never (if at all) been mentioned that I should have an emotional connection with my chosson or husband. No one (or almost no one) has ever said that I am supposed to like the guy at all, whether before marriage or after marriage.
Marriage has always been presented to me as a chiyuv – something you are supposed to do because it’s a Mitzvah, and something that I am supposed to feel guilty about not having done yet. The purpose of getting married is to support someone in Kollel because my life is meaningless since I’m a girl and have no chiyuv to learn, and my only purpose in life is to support someone in Kollel. But you don’t need an emotional connection for that.
Just so no one should get the wrong idea- I don’t think the last part is a common message in the Frum world – it was my own personal experience because of the people I happened to know.
“There are two types of chareidim: the yeshivish wrap the peyos behind the ears while the chasidish let the peyos hang in front of the ears.”
I’ve been trying to figure out for years now whether or not I’m Chareidi.
I guess I have the answer now. 🙂
Well that’s better than what a friend of mine told me once. She told me that I’m not Chareidi because the definition of Chareidi is someone who sends their kids to Chareidi schools.
And a shadchan once told me that I’m not Chareidi because I wasn’t living at home.
“There are two types of chareidim: those who think there are only two types of chareidim, and those who live in the real world.
FTFY”
1. What does FTFY stand for?
2. Why is the first part in italics are you quoting someone?
I think we should still take the mussar parts to heart though, and not let the other aspects prevent us from doing so.
Benignuman, thanks for the explanation. So my second explanation would fit with that. My first would not – since Chazal seem to take it very literally – “lo avar ish” – no one even passed by.
Catch yourself – why in the world wouldn’t having friends over be hachnasas orchim?
I don’t remember if I mentioned this earlier, but regarding the concept of “A mitzvah that could be done by others”, I always assumed that it wouldn’t necessarily apply to a Mitzvah regarding which your doing it is different than someone else’s doing it.
For example, maybe someone could spend time with your kids, but that’s not the same as their father spending time with them. Or someone else can speak to your best friend when he is depressed, but that wouldn’t be the same as your speaking to him.
Golfer – that’s also what I always heard. I was always told not to write notes for that reason. I don’t know if it’s true or not.
I wonder where the whole idea of writing notes came from. Is there any valid source for writing notes to Hashem? We usually talk to Hashem with our mouths – we don’t usually write notes to Him.
“Of course there are! So e/o should learn CPR & first aid.”
That may be true, but our discussion was about what someone should do who hasn’t learned CPR and First Aid.
They should call for help right away.
Meno +1
Maybe that’s our tochacha – that we should learn from him and try to be like him.
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nishtdayngesheft – +1
I also want to point out according to Rav Orlofsky, Rav Moshe Shapiro stated after 9/11 that it was part of milchemes Gog u’Magog. That is certainly a new occurrence.
In general, our Gedolim have been telling us that we are in the time period before Mashiach. We are certainly closer to Mashiach than any other generation has ever been before. We have witnessed unusual Nissim in our times, Nissim the likes of which have probably not been seen in hundreds of years (to my knowledge). Whether or not there are more tragedies today than in times past, Yad Hashem has certainly been more visible than It has been in the past.
There are constant nissim in EY! I don’t think we are even aware of how many planned attacks fall through, and how many missiles have fallen over the years, miraculously hitting no one. The wars that have been won, and the fact that Am Yisrael is thriving in Eretz Yisrael despite being surrounded on all sides by those who wish to destroy us.
There have been outright miracles during the wars, miracles that have not been publicized or internalized as much as they should be. People complain that there are no miracles today, so how can they have Emunah? We are constantly surrounded by outright miracles – Antebbe, the 6-day War, etc. There were nissim g’luim during the wars that even the goyim were aware of!
If we have a hard time focusing on the tragedies, let us focus on the love Hashem shows us through His constant nissim and use that as a wake-up call to remind us that He is ready and waiting to bring Mashiach if we just take one small step forward. That is all it takes.
Wolf – I think you should start. I would like to hear what you have to say. It’s the people who don’t want to give tochacha who probably should be.
I also think it’s a good place to mention the famous story of Rav Shach, Zatsal. When his son didn’t follow in his path, he said that it may be because they didn’t sing zmiros at the Shabbos Table (I assume he felt it was bitul Torah).
With so many kids going OTD, it’s not kidai to give up things that will help bond the family and give the kids a positive feeling for Yiddishkeit.
Obviously, the focus on Chanuka should not be on materialism, the gashmius should be of the simpler non-materialistic variety (like cookies) and for the purpose of increasing family unity and closeness to Hashem and an appreciation for Torah.
Wolf, if it helps you to be happier and to be a better Jew, and to give your kids an appreciation for Yiddishkeit and Jewish holidays,I think it’s a Mitzvah.
In any case, as long as you have hodayah at your Chanuka party, it’s fine. Sing Al Hanisim with feeling, thank your wife (according to Rav Avigdor Miller, if you don’t thank your mother/wife, your thanks to Hashem is meaningless) or she can thank you if you’re the one who made everything, enabling both of you to reach higher levels of hodaya to HaKadosh Baruch Hu.
Mik5: “lilmod ulelamaid – Regarding a person who uttered the name of G-d in the blessing of Shema Koleinu and subsequently reminded himself that he neglected to pray for dew and rain, it is a machlokes between the Chofetz Chaim and HaGaon HaRav Moshe Feinstein zecher tzaddik l’vracha”
Thanks for the info. I wasn’t aware of that. I will have to look it up when I have a chance.
All my information came from the Mishna B’rurah and Dirshu notes. I had been told that I can rely on Dirshu for the contemporary opinions and chilukei deios on the MB. And I don’t think he mentioned this.
After I read your post, it occurred to me that I don’t think he quotes Rav Moshe Feinstein very much if at all. Since he lives in EY, it’s possible that he sticks with the Israeli Poskim. But since I teach Americans, I should try to find out, if possible, what the American Poskim (such as Rav Moshe, Zatsal) say.
Thank you for making me aware of that fact.
In any event, it is probably fairly safe to assume that none of the Israeli Poskim are choleik on the MB, since R’ Dirshu would probably have brought it down if it were the case.
Well, I’ve never noticed any LH or onaas devarim from you, and imho, that’s most important.
Aren’t there pre-marriage shalom bayis programs nowadays? Somehow, I thought there were, but I don’t know. Does anyone else know? Also doesn’t the Kallah teacher do some of that?
I think everyone probably needs it, so it is probably helpful for whoever goes even if there are others who need it more. Adraba, if the people who need it less go than it won’t be embarrassing for the ones who need it more to go.
It would be great if it becomes the norm.
Even though I think it’s important to have something beforehand, I would guess that there are things that you can only really discuss afterwards when they’re l’maaseh. I think people probably need both.
MA – I think it’s great that you are trying to do teshuva and to encourage others to do so as well. However, I still don’t think you are being very specific. Also, I wonder if it would accomplish more if we tried seeing the positive in Am Yisrael (and yes, I do mean that for myself as well).
I hope you don’t mind my saying these things. You were complaining that your words don’t have an effect, so I am trying to find ways that they can be more effective.
Regardless of whether or not there are more tragedies now than there were a few hundred years ago (which can probably be debated forever since it would be hard to prove one way or another), whenever there are tragedies, we are not supposed to take it for granted and say that it’s always been like this; we are supposed to take it as a wake-up call and see what we can do to improve. That is what they did hundreds of years ago, and that is what we are supposed to do now.
Meno – I guess you don’t read Chaim Walder books.
I think they are right – you should call hatzalah right away – why waste time, especially if you are completely untrained in dealing with emergencies?
Also, if you give too many instructions, people get confused when confronted with an emergency – the most important message you want to give over is to call hatzalah. Possibly, the reason people don’t help is because they don’t know what to do or they are in a rush. If they know to just call hatzalah (if they can’t do anything else), it would be very helpful, and more people would be likely to do something.
Shloimel, I very much agree with your third point. I think that I would have been spared a lot of agmas nefesh as well as wasted time if I had been told that an emotional connection is important and I don’t have to keep going out with guys whom I can’t stand being around instead of being pressurred to keep on going out with and even marrying them (Boruch Hashem, I withstood the last pressure but it was very hard).
LB- I’ve been working at night (mainly doing projects for online courses I’m taking) and the only way I can keep myself going is by taking constant breaks. It’s the only way I get my work done, so it actually is efficient even if it doesn’t seem like it. Even when I work during the day, I need a lot of breaks, but more so at night.
During the day, there are a lot of things I can do besides the CR if I need a break, but there’s not much I can do at night. Or I’m just less in the mood to do anything.
Despite (or because of) all my time in the CR, I actually am making a lot of progress Boruch Hashem. Maybe it’s in the zchus of my being “oseik baTorah while in the CR” that Hashem didn’t let my breaks interfere with my getting my work done.
Person1 – he asked him, so I think he wanted him to do it. And why should he have to spend time calling someone else and why should that person take the time to do it? And why shouldn’t Wolf “chap” the Mitzvah if he can?
There is a concept in halacha of not doing a Mitzvah if others can do it, but that is only if you would be learning Torah during that time (which Wolf did not mention as being his concern here which is why I hadn’t mentioned it in my response).
Also it seems to me that if someone specifically asks you to do something and you can do it, you have more of an obligation to say yes, and the fact that someone else can do it is only a reason to say no if you really were planning on doing something else at that time that no one else can do. And again Wolf didn’t say that he felt guilty because his wife was really expecting him to wash the dishes or he cancelled his chevrusa for this.
Another point is that I have the impression that Wolf enjoyed doing it and additionally, may have felt that it strengthened his bond with his friend (are either of those correct, Wolf?) and I’m also guessing that it may have meant something to the Bar Mitzvah boy that Wolf did it (and that he didn’t say no when asked).
“The only way LU and Joseph could be the same poster would be if there were posts posted on Shabbos. -100”
Chas v’shalom! I didn’t even want to mention the possibility that a Yid would post on Shabbos. I suppose I could be a goy, but I think it would be pretty hard to find a goy who is as knowledgeable as I am (or Joseph is).
Of course I am not suggesting it Chas V’shalom. Aderaba, I am considering it an ironclad proof that the two of you are separate posters. -100
Personally, my issue is not kavana; it’s that I won’t be able to say the words without eating and drinking first, so I think I am obligated to eat and drink before davening.
The Shulchan Aruch (89/4) says that if you won’t be able to have kavana unless you eat or drink, you are allowed to do so. The Mishna Brura (26) says that the Shulchan Aruch specifically says “allowed” as opposed to “required” since nowadays most people don’t have so much kavana in any case. Therefore, you are not required to eat or drink in this case, but you are allowed to.
If it’s Shabbos morning before davening, there are different opinions regarding whether or not you have to make kiddush first. The halacha is also different for a lady who is not makpid to daven every day (I think that everyone would say that she needs kiddush, at least if she already fulfilled her her “shevach, bakasha, hodaah” obligation.)
MA – maybe it would help if you were more specific instead of just talking about doing teshuva?
Also, when one gives tochacha, it can be very difficult to give it in a way that doesn’t sound like you think you are better than everyone else, but it is important to try to do so. If you do, people are more likely to listen.
LB – I didn’t mean that my deleted posts were on this thread. They had been written on another thread shortly before you started this thread. I was assuming that if wrote them here, they would be deleted as well.
In any case, would you like the honor of giving tochacha? I would be interested in hearing what you have to say.
Who is the real black sheep of your family, Joseph, and what led you to ask this question?
Geordie – thanks for quoting the possuk. One would have to see what the mefarshim say of course, but it still seems to me that it is possible that it doesn’t mean literally “no-one”. Also, it could mean that there were specific places where no one passed by. If there were only a few Yidden left in EY, it makes sense that many parts of EY would be deserted (since the few people would probably live near each other).
In any case, I did appreciate the opportunity to look up the halachos and write them down – it helps me to remember them, and it gives me an opportunity to actually be doing something useful while I’m taking a break. Which is a good thing since I spend more time taking breaks than I do working.
Be careful – people might start believing you. You have been known to have multiple usernames in the past.
Although the fact that I’m in EY should make it impossible for anyone to think I’m someone who is not. I don’t know if the moderators can tell from the IP address, but the Shabbos times should make it obvious.
We can tell from IP addresses, but that can be masked. The Shabbos times are a giveaway. The only way LU and Joseph could be the same poster would be if there were posts posted on Shabbos. -100
Apparently, he was trying to be “mezakeh harabim” both by having us look up the answers and by having people who are reading or posting in the CR be able to be oseik baTorah while doing so instead of (potentially) being a moshav leitzim.
There was a Jewish black comedian who said that he wants to live in Israel. “It’s the only place where people talk about how the Blacks are moving in and they don’t mean me!” (I guess he’s not Chareidi)
CTLawyer -thanks for explaining. I never would have thought of that! That’s rather a funny concept – tip the garbage man as a bribe for my negligence in recycling 🙂
“HASHKAFAHMASTER613 said: “There are more important qualities in women.”
LB: “HASHKAFAHMASTER613 +1”
Lightbrite & Hashkafamaster613 – +1!
I’m not opposed to speeddating for older singles, but I do hear the issues with it. I think that it should only be done for older singles, ones that are serious about getting married and who aren’t the superficial type and even then it should be done sparingly.
Also, it has to be planned well. It should be by invitation only and the one organizing should make sure that all the people there are more-or-less a similar type (although there should be some flexibility in terms of hashkafa) and serious, tznius, etc
If it’s getting serious, doesn’t that mean there is a connection? (I wouldn’t know – I’m just asking because I think that’s what it would mean for me).
I guess you really need people who have been there to answer this, but I would think that it would come from conversations about things that are important to you and involve expressing your feelings and showing that the other person’s feelings matter to you.
It seems to me that connections are reached with other people when you feel comfortable opening up to them. And also, when you let them know that their feelings and opinions matter to you (not by telling them straight out obviously, but by showing them by the way you respond to things they say).
I would be interested in hearing what the married people have to say about this.
I don’t know what Possuk he is referring to, but I would imagine that it doesn’t say that there was not one single Yid in EY. It probably just means that it was relatively inhabited – like a desert with a few random bedouins wandering around.
“This thread has the potential to become extremely racist, if that wasn’t the intention in the beginning.”
Some people think it’s a maaleh to be “black” (aka chareidi)
Halachos of “v’sain tal u’matar l’vracha”:
1. If you remember before “u’varech shenoseinu” in Birchas hashanim: Say it where you are and continue from there.
2. If you already started “uvarech shenoseinu” but didn’t say Hashem’s Name yet: GO BACK to “v’sein tal umatar l’vracha” and continue with the words that come after that.
3. Once you said Hashem’s Name, say it in Shema Koleinu.
4. If you remember right after Hashem’s Name, it is better not to say lamdeini chukecha and go back, since you have the option of saying it in shema koleinu (unlike mashiv haruach which CANNNOT be said in shema koleinu)
5. If you forget in Shema koleinu, but you did not say Hashem’s Name yet, you should say it then. I think that in this case, you should GO BACK and continue with “ki Atah shomeiah”. The MB does not specify clearly but it is mashma from other things he says (the general rule being that you have to have a chasima m’ain chasima). If anyone knows where it is stated clearly, please let me know. It could be that he just considers it to be obvious from s”k 19.
6. If he had just said Hashem’s Name at the end of shema koleinu but not gone further, he should say “lamdeini chukecha” and continue with “ki Atah Shomeiah”.
7. If he said at least one word after Hashem’s Name but did not start Retzi yet, he should say it in between the two brachos of shema koleinu and retzei (since he is still considered to be in the middle of shema koleinu) and continue with Retzei.
8. If he started Retzei but did not yet finish the “yihiyu l’ratzon” at the end of Elokei netzor, he should go back to “Bareich Aleinu” (I assume that if he said Hashem’s Name at the end of the “yihiyu l’ratzon”, he should finish the passuk first).
9. If he finished the “yihiyu l’ratzon at the end of “Elokai netzor” he should go back to the beginning of Shemona Esrei.
10. If he finished the “yihiyu l’ratzon” at the end of Elokei netzor but it is ‘toch k’dei dibbur” (the amount of time it takes to say “Shalom aleichem Rabi’), he should still go back to “bareich aleinu”.
11. These halachos stay the same whether or not he also says the “y’hiyu l’ratzon” before Elokei netzor.
If I made any more taus sofrim’s or mistakes, please feel free to let me know. Thanks!
ps: sources to follow, bli neder.
mik5: “lilmod ulelamaid – Re vesein tal umatar 2 – What you wrote is not correct according to any opinion. If you signed off “Baruch ata… shomea tefilla,” you do not c”v go back to Shema Koleinu. Rather, just say the words vsein tal umtar [l’vracha etc.] and then continue with Retzei.”
Mik5 -thanks for the correction! That was a taus sofrim – I hadn’t realized I had written that until now.
I was trying to make the halachos easier to follow by first writing it simply and just saying what bracha to say it in w/o going into all the specific details (and doing that afterwards in a second post).
I meant to say that as long as you didn’t say “Retzi” you are still considered to be in Shema Koleinu and t/f you should say it there.
Thanks for the correction! You may have prevented a lot of brachos l’vatala.
I will bli neder follow up with all the specific halachos. Please feel free to correct if I make any further mistakes. Thank you!
I thought that there have always been some Jews in E”Y.
mik5 – +1!
And I think that Wolf really is one of the lamed vavnikim.
What is the type of shalom bayis that is being promoted? Is your question, “Did people have the same type of problems?” Or do you mean, “did they have the same type of results?”
I am glad to hear that such a program is being started, Do you know how I can get information on it? I know people who might want to know about it.
lol – I knew the same ones that Health knew, and none of the others. Probably because I think I am in closer to his age than to yours, LB.
And like Winnie the Pooh, I didn’t really watch tv in the 90’s. The ones that I, Health, and Winnie the Pooh know are from earlier. The rest must have have started in the 90’s which is why we don’t know them.
Thanks for explaining Randomex! I was wondering!