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I just want to point out that while it is true that there are those that won’t eat Beis Yosef, there are also those who say Bais Yosef is fine but they won’t eat other hashgachos that some of the people who do eat Beis Yosef will eat. And I’m only talking about Ashkenazim here, so it doesn’t have to do with Ashkenazi/Sephardi differences.
There are a wide range of opinions. For every (Mehadrin and Chareidi) hashgacha, you will find some who eat it and some who don’t but do eat the other hashagachas.
That is why you have to ask. That is also why I don’t think this is the place for such a question and why there are L”H issues involved – since it’s not a black-and-white issue and it very much depends on the Rav you ask as well as your own situation.
One of the things that impressed me about the Rav I asked was that his answer was tailor-made for me and my situation. He even told me not to repeat what he said, because it was specifically for me.
That’s the type of question that really depends on the person, the situation, and the Rav you are asking. Personally, I am very honest and I try to stay far away from dishonesty (emphasis on the word “try” – it’s not as easy as it sounds).
I have a friend who was an older single girl. People kept pressuring her to lie about her age for shidduchim, telling her that it is permissible for the sake of shidduchim. Finally, she asked Rav Sheinberg, zatsal, (he was her Rav) what she should do. He said to her pointblank, “It’s assur to lie.” I think he said it in a tone of voice as though it’s a clear-cut thing, and why was she even thinking of asking.
She was mortified. She hadn’t really wanted to lie in the first place – she only asked because everyone was pressuring her so much.
Rav Sheinberg, zatsal, was known for his honesty. I had my own story with him. Maybe I’ll write about it, but this post is long enough.
This is the type of thing that you should ask a sheilah about, since I would imagine that it really might depend on the individual. It’s possible that the facts that you are in the process of becoming Frum and that you are a single girl in the process of trying to get married would be reasons for allowing you to be more lenient.
If you want my opinion, I think that some of the things that you are asking about are things that might not matter so much which way you do. I really don’t think it matters which bedtime Shema you say. There are no issues of making a bracha l’vatala here. And if you chose the one that is more likely to motivate you to say it, that sounds like a good choice to me.
Btw, I could be wrong, but I don’t think you are obligated in bedtime Shema – certainly not the parts after Shema and V’ahavta (besides possibly the bracha of hamapil, although I don’t know if that is different for Sefardim). I think that most girls and women do say the entire bedtime Shema and it’s a very good thing to do, but I don’t think it’s something you should feel pressured about if it’s too hard for you. And I certainly can’t imagine it matters which one you say.
In terms of havdala, do you usually make it yourself or hear it from someone else? If you hear it from someone else, I don’t think it matters. If you make it yourself, I also don’t think it would matter – it probably depends what type of differences you are talking about. If the differences are before the brachas, I don’t think it would matter.
You really should ask a Rav who knows you or at least knows your situation. If you ask a Rav who doesn’t know you, make sure you explain some basic details of your situation – for example, that you are in the process of becoming religious, and that you are a single girl hoping to get married soon, etc.
But until you have a chance to ask, I think you should chill out and continue doing things the way you have until now until you hear differently.
When you do ask a sheilah, one thing you may want to ask about is brachos. One of the big differences between Ashkenazim and Sefardim has to do with which brachos women are allowed to say.
LB- Maybe I am wrong, but I have the impression from your posts that tznius is the only (or main) issue you are struggling with. If that is the case, I certainly don’t think it’s accurate to refer to yourself as “secular”. And you can certainly call yourself religious.
Again, I might be wrong, and it’s not my business, and you certainly don’t have to share any personal information. But I am just pointing out that that is the impression that I get from your posts.
In any case, everything I wrote in my previous post still holds true: You are a Jew who trying to be an Eved Hashem and to grow in her Yiddishkeit (just like the all the rest of us :))
Tizkeh L’Mitzvos! (sorry I can’t help)
LU – +1. I just want to add, that while your mashal is a good one, I hope it is clear that it is much more complicated than that. The difference is that halacha is super-complicated and complex so it is simply impossible to put every opinion and every case-scenario in one sefer. I know that is what you were saying, but I am just pointing out that it is far more complex than class rules. So while it is a good mashal, it does not begin to compare.
To clarify some of the points made above: The title of the thread is: “Is CHAREIDISM a movement?” It is not, “Are CHAREIDIM the exact same in every way as they were three thousand years ago?” (and if you can find anyone who is the exact same in every way as people were three thousand years ago, I’d be very interested in hearing about it!)
Did you go to Kever Rochel yet? There may be tour busses that go from Yerushalayim – I think I have seen signs at times, but it might be just during Chol HaMoed and the summer.
LB – it seems that there was a woman whose doctor told her that she can only conceive during a time period when, according to halacha, a woman is forbidden to her husband. Rav Kook said that this can’t be correct according to Chazal, and Chazal are more reliable than doctors, and therefore he was not willing to permit her to her husband during the particular time period in question.
He also then went on to say that the doctors wanted to do away with metziza because they thought it was dangerous, but Chazal say differently and the doctors have no validity against Chazal because Chazal’s chachma comes from the Torah.
LB: “Can one really say that he or she absolutely knows why he or she is single?”
Of course not. I thought I made that clear in my post. I was just pointing out things that the oilam could learn from my experiences. (maybe that’s why I’m single – so that the oilam could learn these things).
Lesschumras – from your last post, you clearly did not understand my posts.I already answered everything here.
Regarding Rabbinic Judaism, the Torah Sheb’al Peh was given at Har Sinai, and it is kefira to say otherwise. I am not sure if that is what you meant, but your words could be interpreted that way.
The Peyutim in the Machzorim have nothing to do with anything. The definition of Chareidi has nothing to do with Peyutim. According to that definition of Chareidi, Sephardim and Chassidim would certainly not be considered Chareidi.
Of course there are things that are done differently today. But those things have nothing to do with the definition of chareidi. That’s why even today there are many Jews who do things very differently from each other but can all still be considered Chareidi (such as Sephardim and Chassidim). According to the definition of Chareidi that both Joseph and I were using, most Jews from the time of Har Sinai until relatively recently would be considered Chareidi, despite their differences, because those differences have nothing to do with the definition of Chareidi.
LB, that’s all true, but if it’s brought down that one of the qualifications of Moshiach is that he must have children (which I don’t know if it does), it probably means it literally.
In any case, the Lubavitcher Rebbe is not Moshiach for other reasons.
ZD -according to what you are saying, it’s not chareidi judaism that is different; it’s people that all different.
The differences you are talking about apply to all people – they have nothing to do with Chareidim in particular.
assurnet – without getting into specifics about specific hashgachos, I will try to explain the issue you are talking about. This is something that I had also wondered about and looked into. It comes up with many other hashgachos besides the ones you mentioned.
There are many hashgachos that are considered problematic hashgachos even though the Rabbanim behind them are chashuve Rabbanim whom everyone holds of. The issue is that there are many hashgachos that are being given for the masses who would be eating complete treif otherwise. These hashgachos are not necessarily meant for Frum people to rely on.
There is a big difference between a Rav giving a hashgacha and the Rav preparing the food himself. He may be relying on kulos that he wouldn’t rely on in his own home because he knows he is dealing with “hamon ha’am” so he wants to make sure they are not eating out-right treif.
You have to also understand that you are not dealing with black-and-white issues here. You are dealing with mass production of food in factories run by not-Frum people, for the most part. You have no idea what is going on. There are so many mistakes that can happen. From what I understand, the idea of a hashgacha is that there was a certain level of hashgacha taking place, enough to give the food a certain level of reliability, but no one is guaranteeing that it is 100% certainly kosher. No hashgacha is 100% reliable, but some come much closer than others. It’s kind of like saying that there are some people whose houses you know you would feel comfortable eating in, some whose houses you definitely wouldn’t, and some who you would only eat in if someone would be insulted otherwise. At least, that is how I understand the process.
In otherwords, you are not judging the Rav HaMachshir necessarily. You are judging the strictness of the standards he is using to measure other people’s reliability.
lesschumras – I did not make your point for you. Read my post carefully.
ZD- thank you for giving examples. I was going to ask you what I meant. The changes you are talking about have nothing to do with being Charedi. They are sociological changes that have to do with living in the 21st century. That has nothing to do with being Chareidi.
Simcha – I don’t know the answer to your question. What I do know is that when I returned to EY recently after being away for several years, I had to figure out which hashgachos I could eat. And since I’m living with family, that was a particularly complicated question.
I wasn’t even sure at first what Rav to ask since there are a lot of different opinions, and I had to ask a Rav who made sense for me and where I am holding Frumkeit-wise and hashkafa-wise, and who would understand my situation. First, I asked several friends what they do. These are all friends whom I trust and whose houses I eat in and who are more stringent than I am when it comes to these types of matters. I then got numbers from them of Rabbanim to ask.
What I found very interesting was exactly the point you are making. There were certain hashagachos that everyone seemed to have similar opinions on (whether that was definitely yes, definitely no, or it’s not the best but you can rely on it if you need to), but there were other hashgachos that there seemed to be very different opinions on.
I’m not sure, but I think that part of this may have had to do with different levels of knowledge regarding the hashgachos. Part of that may have had to do with the fact that these things are always changing, and part of it may have had to do with the fact that there are probably very few people who have really researched the hashgachos and know what is going on. I trusted the Rav I spoke to because I could tell from the way the conversation went that he is a very wise person and he seemed to really know what he is talking about.
In terms of someone eating treif, that was not a concern here. None of the hashgachos mentioned are “treif”. And if the OP is concerned about eating treif, there are many reliable Rabbanim whom he can call to ask.
Reuven – there are many conditions necessary in order for loshon hora to be permitted according to halacha. Those conditions are not in place here. I explained some of this in my above post. I also listed some of the conditions of Loshon Hora l’toeles in my Loshon Hora thread, although I don’t think I ever finished, and I do hope to do so when I have a chance.
Hashem is not going to ask me why I wrote my above post. If I hadn’t written it, He would ask me why I didn’t. The halacha is that if you hear someone speaking Loshon Hora and you don’t say something, you are oiver on an aveira. What answer will you have when you are asked why you didn’t say anything?
ZD – even if what you are saying is true (about Chareidim today being different than in the 17th century), I don’t think that what you are talking about is necessarily relevant to this discussion.
I think that when people talk about Chareidim being a new movement they are comparing Chareidim to Dati-Leumi and saying that Dati-Leumi is the regular way to be Frum and Chareidim is a new movement that sprung up. In reality, Dati-Leumi is a new movement, and Chareidi refers to people who are not part of this new movement.
Also, the changes that you are talking about (if in fact there were such changes) took place before the dati-leumi movement started. So the dati-leumi people started out as Chareidim.
Wolf, lol.
If people really want to do something to help end the shidduch crisis, based on my personal experience, there are two (or three) things people can and should do. These are the two things that I think are the reason why I am not married yet (I mean, what seems to have led to it – only Hashem knows the reasons):
1. Try to be a good listener.
2. Stop speaking L”H and Motzi Shem Ra.
If I had the time and if it weren’t too personal and complicated, I could show you how the lack of those two things let to my being single, even though all of those responsible have no clue as to the connection.
If the oilam were to work on those two things, I have a feeling it would help put an end to the kids-at-risk crisis and the divorce crisis as well (and most other crises).
I think Health is upset because you just disqualified him
j/k – you are right, at least technically. I have a feeling that Moshiach probably has to have a wife though, but I have no sources to back me up.
DY +1
DY +1.
Reuven, we are not talking about a situation where he writes in his sefer that it is absolutely assur to do something and then he goes and tells someone that l’chatchila you are supposed to do that very thing.
It is also important to remember that in many halacha sefarim, it is written in the introduction that you can’t posken from the sefer.
Halacha is very complex. In order to posken halacha, a person has to know what every Rishon and Achoron said, etc. Obviously, that can’t be given over in a concise halacha sefer for the masses. If someone wants to know halacha well enough to be able to posken for himself, he has to sit and study from real sefarim for many years, not read an english halacha sefer.
The main purposes of an english (or hebrew) halacha sefer are:
1. to give over what most people should be doing in most situations
2. So that people will know what things could be shailahs and they will know when to ask.
LB – you are 100% correct about the label “chiloni/secular”. It is a complete misnomer and a terrible word. On the other hand, these labels mean what they have come to mean, and one could say that the technical definition doesn’t matter.
L’maaseh, when the words “chiloni” or “secular” are used to refer to people, they just refer to people who are not religious; they don’t really mean people who are secular according to the dictionary definition of secular. It is sad that these are the words that are used, but most people don’t really think about the dictionary definition when using the terms.
In America,though, those words aren’t really used. People usually say not-Frum.
In terms of yourself, you are in transition, and shouldn’t worry too much about labels right now. If people ask, you can say that you are a Jew who is trying to become more religious.
Truthfully, I am a bit confused.Sometimes you say things that make it sound like you aren’t really Frum yet, but other times, you are asking detailed questions about specific halachos that make it sound like you are very Frum and concerned about keeping every detail of halacha.
In any case, you are clearly a very sincere person who “sees the light and is making her way there” so that is the kind of answer you should give if someone asks.
He (and I) were not talking about Chassidim; we were talking about Chareidim. Chassidim are Chareidim; Chareidim are not Chassidim. It’s not the Chassidish aspect that makes them Chareidi; it’s the fact that they fit the definition of Chareidi in other ways (ways that have nothing to do with being Chassidish).
I actually would agree with you that Chassidus is a new movement although that doesn’t necesssarily make it a problem. That is why there was so much (necessary) opposition to it when it started. On the other hand, even though Chassidus was originally a new movement, one has to keep in mind that Chassidus of today is very different than it used to be, and non-Chassidim of today are different as well. The Chassidim would probably say (and perhaps correctly so, at least in America, and at least to some extent) that today, they are actually the ones holding on to the Mesorah of yesteryear and the rest of the oilam has become modernized.
“People thought that the Rebbe had all the qualities but Klal Yisroel wasn’t ready.”
Outside of Lubavitch, I think most people thought that he couldn’t possibly be Moshiach.
It seems to me that this question may be avak L”H. This is not the place for someone to be asking about hashgachos and for someone to answer by comparing hashgachos. It is a question that must be asked to a Rav.
If someone were to respond and say that a particular hashgacha is not good, it would be Loshon Hora since the conditions of toeles do not apply here. For one thing, there is no toeles in asking or being answered by an anonymous poster.
Amongst other things, there are different opionions, and these things also change constantly. Please ask this question this a Rav.
NCB- well, since you asked,
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/christmas-presents-to-give-on-chanukah
Joseph +1. Yours is the best answer since mine (I didn’t read the old posts).
Avi K – the things you are writing about are not the definition of Chareidi. At best they may be things that are commonly found in the Chareidi world but definitely not the definition. You can be Chareidi and think that women should not go to work and/or be in favor of secular studies.
Being Chareidi is basically just as Joseph put it (and I did earlier) the default definition of Frum – what you are if you are not Mizrachi.
and btw, the “Chareidi world” does not “reject secular studies”. They minimize the time devoted to it because of bitul Torah concerns. The girls, on the other hand, for whom that is not a concern, do receive a secular education including a minimum of two or three years post-high school.
Meno & Bluhbluh +1. That is why we have Rabbanim and we are supposed to ask sheilos to Rabbanim and not posken from books/sefarim, or as Meno put it – A Rav is not a computer; he’s a person who can figure out what this person needs to hear.
Benignuman, thanks for clarifying. I have a lot to say when I have time to think about it, but I appreciate your clarification because I was confused about that.
I don’t think that Joseph is talking about the exact same thing as you. He seems to think that everyone should start having b’shows, which does not follow from what you are saying.
Basically, “yeshivish” can either refer to a sociological concept or a religious one or a combination. It actually has many more meanings than Chareidi does, since you can choose the proportion and type of sociology and religion that you mix into your definition.
It is also something that one can have in various amounts. You can compare how yeshivish one person is to another (although you probably shouldn’t!) or talk about how yeshivish someone is (for example, “he is super Yeshivish” or “he is not so Yeshivish”).
The term “chareidi” is usually used in “black and white terms” (pun intended). Generally, someone is chareidi or he is not. That is unlikely to be the case with “yeshivishness” where it is more likely to go by degrees as opposed to “you are or you aren’t”.
I still haven’t gotten to the concept of “Chardal” yet….
It is the closest, but it doesn’t necessarily mean the same thing exactly. It is used interchangeably for lack of alternative. And of course, there is more than one way to explain each term (so depending which definitions you use, they can probably mean the same thing).
I was going with one meaning of Chareidi for the sake of simplicity, and since for the context, it wasn’t really necessary to use the other meaning.
I don’t have time to explain the differences/similarities between the terms right now, but maybe when I have a chance, bli neder.
Avi K: “In many cases poskim say that nature has changed or that we do not understand what Chazal”
which is VERY different from saying that Chazal were wrong, which is something that some people think and that seems to be the attitude that Rav Kook was attacking here.
Health: “First, take CPR & first aid.
Next – practice it a lot. You can buy your own manikin for cheap!”
Meno: “It’s a lot to ask from a person to practice a lot just to prepare for an unlikely occurrence.”
Health: “Now let’s talk about Jews, even if you aren’t interested in doing it because it’s morally correct, but there is a Chiyov.
So unless you’re the type of person that doesn’t wash Negel Vasser when it’s not convenient, then you can’t make excuses in this case!”
Health: “I never wrote such a thing! You put words into my mouth, so you can say – I’m not right!..
I don’t see anywhere that you must learn CPR!”
I have a friend who went out with her husband for a while (at least by Yeshivish standards – I don’t think it was actually that long). She told me that someone told her the following (I hope I have this right):
“If either your head or your heart is in favor and the other one is not against, you should keep going out.”
I have often been in situations where my heart was definitely against (I’m not sure about my head) and I was pressurred to keep going out. I think that is wrong! Probably, the people involved didn’t realize that my heart was against and they just thought I was neutral.
Oh, I thought you figured it out from the fact that it’s unlikely that the same person is a Rosh Yeshiva in both Tzfas and Monsey and was a talmid of both the Chazon Ish, zatsal and Rav Aharon Kotler, zatsal.
Thanks for your honesty. I was feeling a bit dumb for not having figured that out – although it is pretty unusual for there to be two people who have the same 3 names and to both be chashuve Roshei Yeshivas.
There is something I have been wondering about. When I first started dating, I was super-uncomfortable, having basically never spoken to a boy in my life. I am sure that there must be many others who feel this way.
Who are all these people engaging in “schok and kalus rosh” on dates? Does this really happen or is this an assumption being made? Who are you talking about? Are these modern boys and girls? I find it hard to imagine that the average Yeshivish Yeshiva Bochur or Bais Yaakov girl is so comfortable going out with members of the opposite gender that that is a problem. Am I very naive? Are we talking about a completely different type?
Chareidi just means anyone who is Frum but not Mizrachi/Dati Leumi, so it can’t be considered a new movement. In order to be Chareidi, you don’t have to believe in anything different than what Yidden believed in 100 or 200 years ago. On the other hand, being Mizrachi/Dati Leumi is a new movement since it didn’t used to exist. I’m not saying that is necessarily a proof that they are wrong; Chassidus was also a new movement. But being Chareidi is not a new movement since anyone who is not Mizrachi (but is Frum) is Chareidi by default.
mw13- nice.
Dash – I think he’s saying that there are doctors who make this claim about individuals (but I’m super-tired and didn’t read it super-carefully)
Health – you are the one who was poskening. You are poskening that there is a chiyuv for everyone to learn CPR. Sorry, but you are not qualified to posken. All I “poskened” was that you have no basis for your “psak”.
It’s not going to happen. At best they would recommend it, but they wouldn’t demand it from everyone. It’s not realistic, and it’s not applicable for everyone. It’s not applicable for most or many older singles, people from Modern Orthodox families or baalei teshuva or anyone who is from the type of family that would make such a thing awkward.
Additionally, until now I haven’t heard anyone suggest that there is any problem with the current system. And with the shidduch crisis and divorce crisis, I don’t think that making dating more formal and constrained than it already is is going to help.
I think if anything, the solution to those issues is to make dating more casual and certainly not less so. I read an article about how the bas kol that comes out telling people who their zivug is something that the person is supposed to hear inside themselves when they meet their zivug but the problem is that there are too many people telling them what to do so they are not able to hear it.
I think there is a lot of truth to that. I know a family that has a bunch of older single daughters. The mother told me once years ago that she feels a bit guilty because one of her daughters was once going out with someone whom she actually liked and she made her stop going out with him because he only learned half a day. This happened many years ago and both the girl and all of her sisters who were single at the time are still single and they are all in their 30’s or 40’s. I think that changing the system to the way you are suggesting would exacerbate some of these problems.
I could hear where it might make sense to change certain aspects of the dating system (like the part about his picking her up in a car as was discussed in this thread), but I don’t think that everyone should start having sit-ins.
I’m curious as to why you feel so strongly about it. Are there things that you’ve seen or heard that made you feel this way? Why is it such a big deal to meet in a hotel lobby?
LF would have made more sense, but I wanted to check
I was trying to figure out if it was meant to be LF or LU.
Mik5 – +1. Thanks for sharing. I don’t know if I would have realized how bad it is. Boruch Hashem, it doesn’t really come up for me, but it’s important to know in case I ever end up in the US during that season.
“I don’t know why you think in the time of the Moshiach it will be re-instituted.”
I never said I did.
I actually would guess that either it won’t be or that most people won’t have more than one wife even if it’s technically allowed.
In a perfect world, marriages consist of one man and one woman, imho.
who’s LA?
Health: “Now let’s talk about Jews, even if you aren’t interested in doing it because it’s morally correct, but there is a Chiyov.
So unless you’re the type of person that doesn’t wash Negel Vasser when it’s not convenient, then you can’t make excuses in this case!”
The correct comparison would not be to washing Negelvasser; it would be to learning all the halachos that can possibly ever come up in your lifetime, even those that don’t come up at all in most people’s lifetimes.
So until a person has learned all the halachos in all four sections of the Shulchan Aruch, I’m not so sure he would be allowed to waste time learning CPR which he may never need and which (according to your prior posts) involves a lot time and effort over an extended period of time to learn.
Additionally, it’s a bit shver to put it in the same category as things that we are chayiv to learn and put into practice according to halacha, unless you know poskim who posken that it is a chiyuv.