Lilmod Ulelamaid

“I don’t see your point. Chareidim basically means Jews who are not Zionist. It is also possible to use the term to refer to Jews who are Zionist but choose to label themselves according to the fact that they are Chareidim as opposed to labeling themselves by their zionism.”

“Okay. Just be aware this includes anyone who self-identifies as a Chareidi, and excludes anyone who doesn’t, whether they are Shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos, follow Gedolim, etc. It is actually very similar to the Liberal definition of “Woman” being anyone who self-identifies as such, no matter whether they are physically a woman or not.

I meant to say anyone who is “shomer Torah u’Mitzvos” and does not identify as dati-leumi. I don’t know what the exact level of “shomer Torah u’Mitzvos would be. I think that would be debatable, just as the definition of “frum” is debatable.

I think it does have a lot to do with a person’s choice as to how they choose to define themselves.

As for the guy who is “shomer Torah u’Mitvos but votes Meretz”, his anti-Zionism has nothing in common with the Chareidi’s anti-zionism. His anti-Zionism has more in common with Obama’s anti-zionism. No shaychis. In the ways in which Obama (or l’havdil the Meretz guy) are anti-zionist, I (and probably most or many Chareidim) are the biggest Zionists.

“It also means that there were no Chareidim before people started to self-identify using that term.”

As I wrote above, I think the term actually started with non-Chareidim. In any case, there were Chareidim before that, but the term “chareidi” wasn’t used. Just like there were Jews even though they weren’t called Jews. And just like there were Frum people even though they weren’t called Frum.

Actually, just about everyone was Frum and Chareidi at one point. These terms only started being used when there was a significant portion of the population that wasn’t.

There is another way to define “Chareidi” which would have to do with one’s religious level as opposed to one’s hashkafa. According to that definition, Chardalniks would be considered “Chareidi” as well as most Yidden before 200 or so years ago. I think that the definition that I used is the most accurate though. And those are the only two definitions that I think are at all accurate. As opposed to the term “Yeshivish” which can be used in a sociological sense.

In any case, I do consider myself Chareidi and Frum and Shomer Torah u’Mitzvos, so I have to go light my Menora now.

Freilichin Chanuka to one and all (however you label yourself).

“Could say the same for Sephardim, Breslovers, Lubavitch and Telzers.”

For Sephardim, see my above post. In terms of the rest, I don’t see your point. Chareidim basically means Jews who are not Zionist. It is also possible to use the term to refer to Jews who are Zionist but choose to label themselves according to the fact that they are Chareidim as opposed to labeling themselves by their zionism.

Breslov and Lubavitchers usually don’t label themselves as Religious-Zionists, although I’m sure there are some who do. I think that most of them consider themselves to be Chareidi and the fact that they are Breslov or Lubavitch is a sub-category of being Chareidi. Joseph explained this very well. For the ones who label themselves as Religious-Zionists (if they exist), the fact that they are Lubavitch or Breslov is a subcategory of being a religious-zionist.

“Which was my original argument that “chareidi” is based on self-identification, not whether you follow the Torah or not.”

I don’t disagree with the first part of the sentence. I am not sure about the second. That’s part of a more general question of exactly what does a person have to keep in order to be considered Frum, and there is no clear-cut answer to that question. Different people will say different thngs. If someone keeps some halachos and not others, can they be considered Frum? What if they keep everything but hilchos tznius? What if someone is a murderer, lo aleinu – can they be considered Frum? Whatever your answer would be for “Frum”, I think it would probably be similar for “Chareidi”.

There are definitely people who consider themselves Chareidi who are “modern” in the sense of not dressing tzniusly, watching movies, etc. They call themselves Chareidi because they consider themselves to be Frum and they are not dati-leumi, and as Joseph put it, Chareidi is the default term for Frum people who are not dati-leumi.

“How about the Orthodox Meretz guy?”

I’m not sure what you mean – almost everyone in Israel is Orthodox. There is very little Conservative or Reform here, Boruch Hashem. What does that have to do with anything? You can be Orthodox without being Frum. Orthodox doesn’t have to do with what you do – it has to do with your beliefs and/or the type of shul you daven in when you go to shul.

I don’t know who this Orthodox Meretz guy is or what you are talking about – it needs more clarification.

“Finally, what do you mean by “do not follow Daas Torah”?”

Not following Gedolim.

I am not sure about this, but I think that I may have heard that the term Chareidim originated with people who were anti-Chareidi and it was a derogatory term. The Chareidim then turned things around by deciding to use the term as a source of pride. I think the same thing happened with the term “Frum” which had a negative connotation not so long ago.

The frog and the cat.

Abba – if you work in the school system (as many of the people I know do), you are off the whole summer.

Israeli society in general (and particularly for Frum girls) is less career-oriented than American society, I think. Frum society tends to consider marriage more important for Frum girls than career.

I’m not saying that giving up one’s job is not an issue, but society does tend to feel that getting married is more important.

L’maaseh, usually people will just go for the summer, and only stay longer if they have a job in the second country and/or they are going out with someone specific and it is going well.

There was another important point that I wanted to make and didn’t get to yet. Any definition given for any of these terms is not going to be 100% accurate. No matter what definition is given, you will probably be able to find someone who doesn’t fit.

That is because none of these labels are real, so they don’t have a real definition. They are sociological terms that developed. You would have the same problem if you tried defining other labels such as Frum, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, secular, chiloni, mesorati, etc. There is more than one way that one could define each of the terms, and for each definition used, one will find people who don’t fit. I think that some of these other terms may be even more complicated to define. It is also important to remember that in some cases, the definitions have changed over the years.

In addition to the fact that labels aren’t real, people are complex and don’t necessarily fit neatly into boxes. That is why many people are anti-labels and only use them when they have to, if at all. I used to be very anti-label, and I actually still am in theory at least to some degree, but I have come to realize that they are necessary and valuable to some extent. However, even when one used labels, they have to realize they are essentially meaningless. People are people and they are not labels, so any definition you give will probably not work 100% for all people all of the time. Which is fine. Because it’s just a meaningless label. And we’re waiting for the day when we will be “agudah achas” and get rid of the labels.

I used the definition of Chareidi that I used because it is the one that I think makes the most sense, fits best with the way that the term is used in modern Israeli society, and leaves one with the least contradictions and questions.

I have been living in Eretz Yisrael for over 2 decades, and it took me a long time to figure out what the term Chareidi meant. I came up with this definition after living here for many years, in many types of communities, speaking to many people, thinking about it a lot and analyzing society here and the way the labels are used.

Bli neder, I will try to answer your specific questions/arguments later (probably not tonight because I am tired).

But I think that this post should answer your questions to some extent, and maybe even fully. In any case, I will try when I’m less tired, bli neder.

Golfer – “Live and let live” is an appropriate motto in certain cases. This case is one of them. They have a certain Minhag that has a basis and Rabbinical backing. It is none of your business.

The comparison to the Maccabees and Hellenists is completely inaccurate:

1. The Hellenists weren’t just “living and let living”. They were copying.

2. The Hellenists were oiver on clear-cut issurim.

3. The Maccabees told the Yidden to fight the Yevanim (and maybe the Helenists? I have to brush up on my Chanuka history). They were allowed and supposed to do this because the Gedolim of their time told them to.

There are times when we are supposed to give mussar. This is not one of them. And even if there were a chiyuv to give mussar, it would have to be given to the people doing it. You are not allowed to speak badly about one person to another. That is completely assur.

They have Rabbinal backing. This is their Minhag. Leave them alone. Our obligation is to judge favorably.

So, yes, in this case, “live and let live” is the right attitude.

Thanks iacisrmma! Good to know about! I’ll have to look out for them.

Avi – all my posts were in reference to the OP with Rav Kook’s opinion. I deliberately didn’t say anything about other opinions. I realize that there may be other opinions, but I don’t know enough about the subject so I didn’t want to discuss it, and I was just discussing Rav Kook’s opinion, as quoted here.

I do know that it’s a controversial topic, so I do feel that until I know definitively that I am allowed to believe that Chazal could be wrong about a scientific matter, I am not allowed to believe so. At best I could believe that there may be such an opinion, and it may be possible that I am allowed to believe such a thing, but m/w I am not allowed ti until I know for sure that that is the case.

Regarding your sources, until I look them up myself in the original Loshon Hakodesh, I also do not feel that I can rely on them. And even if I were to look them up, I would need to know what the Gedolim of today say. There may be opinions in the Rishonim that we do not hold by, or that aren’t relevant for us, etc.

I know enough to know that it is a very complex, controversial topic, and the fact that there are Rishonim who said this may not necessarily mean that it is okay for me say it. It is more complicated than that.

I’m not saying you’re wrong – just that I don’t know enough to have an opinion on it one way or another, and until I know differently, I am concerned that it may be problematic for me to be mekabel the other opinion on this.

Obviously, when it comes to specific halachic issues, everyone has to ask a reliable Rav. So far, I haven’t come across any such issues, so there are no practical ramifications for me at the moment.

Extremely inaccurate however!!!!

Joseph +1. Basically, the Religious Zionists choose to identify themselves by their Zionism instead of their Chareidism.

It is possible to be Chareidi and to be zionistic. I know people like that.They are people whose identity is that they are “Chareidi” and they feel that being zionistic is just a part of that and not what defines them.

Rav Elchonon Wasserman is quoted as saying that you can’t have Torah and something else. If something is part of Torah, then it is included in Torah, and if it’s not part of Torah, then it shouldn’t be part of your belief system.

In terms of some of the examples you gave, you can be Chareidi and go to the army or college.

Also, Religious Zionists is a very large group and it includes a wide range. There are people who say that there are basically two types of Religious Zionists – dati-lite and Chardal. When I first heard that, I wasn’t sure how accurate it was, since I thought there was a large middle ground. However, since I am back in EY, I have noticed that there does seem to be a growing polarization within the Religious Zionists (although I do not know the extent of it).

There are many Religious Zionists (dati-lite) who keep some halachos and not others and do not follow Daas Torah (even the Gedolim of the Mizrachi world). I personally know people in those circles who do not know the difference between following the Poseket who lives next door and following Gedolim. This may be in total innocence and they may be tinok shenishba. Personally, I would call many of those people Religious as opposed to Frum. In the US, they would be considered LWMO or possibly OO (some of the people I know believe in women Rabbis).

Regarding the Chardalniks, it is possible to consider them Chardal – that is what Chardal stands for – Chareidi Leumi. On the other hand, some might argue that by calling themselves Chareidi Leumi, they are choosing to call themselves something other than Chareidi. So I guess it’s up to them how they choose to define themselves.

If people buy clothes online, why not hats? I don’t really get the clothes thing either, but I know that it’s done.

Are hats so complicated in terms of fitting? I would have thought that you just need to know your size and any hat in that size would fit. Is it more complicated?

Amen! LB + infinity + infinity!

btw, I think you are the nicest poster in the CR!

I think the OP didn’t write the words. I think the words were written by the moderators in answer to the OP’s question. So the question was already answered before anyone else even saw it!

LB – my pleasure! Hope you enjoy your last day (or 2? or 3?) in EY! 🙂

As far as I know, I haven’t bumped into you. I actually met a few single girls over the past two weeks, but none of them were tourists.

Oh, well. 🙁 Maybe next time, IY”H.

WTP – same thing happened to my friend! Maybe we share a friend.

In my case, it was her brother who lied about her age and she was upset about it. He was serious when he said that about people assuming you are lying.

Does what have to be in complete contradiction?

If you mean the doctors and Chazal, they usually are not in contradiction; that is why you are allowed to listen to them. It is only in the rare occasions when they do that you are not allowed to listen to them (at least according to Rav Kook – I don’t know what other Gedolim say).

Better yet, perhaps it should serve as a starting point for working on being “dan l’kaf zchus” and seeing how we can look at these people favorably and find good things to say about them (instead of the opposite). Which gives me an idea…

That’s so thoughtful of you!

Randomex- I knew that, but it still feels better to write it that way since to me the letter “x” is meaningless. So if I have to write it one way or another, I’d rather write it that way until someone comes up with something better.

LB- first of all, all the cases I was talking about were Americans living in Israel, not Israelis. It made sense for them to go to America for shidduchim because they were Americans.

Both make sense – for Americans living in EY to go to the US for shidduchim and for Americans living in the US to come to Israel for shidduchim. The logic is that you have already spent several years dating the guys in your country and you never dated any guys in the other country. Nothing is working out in your country; maybe your zivug is in the other country.

Additionally, sometimes a person can learn and grow from the experience of being in another country and being exposed to a different segment of Frum society. I know that going to the US was very helpful to me for that reason.

Randomex- that is the same article as the one in YWN’s home page. That is the one I quoted (I don’t think my post was up yet when you wrote yours).

I just reread it – it quotes the Klausenberger Rebbe as holding of this Minhag and giving explanations for it. So I think people should be careful about what they say. If it’s not your minhag, don’t do it, but don’t put it down.

If you’re really concerned about chilul Hashem, writing posts stating that it’s a chilul Hashem are what causes a chilul Hashem. If your concern is chilul Hashem, post the reasons for the minhag instead of putting it down.

LB- most of the lies you are talking about are fine. The only one I’m unsure of is lying about age for shidduchim. There may be different opinions, so you have to ask a sheilah. Personally, I think it’s a bad idea even if someone is told it’s permissible.

The other examples you gave should all be fine. I understand the discomfort part though. I recently told a shadchan that I was “busy” and not available for dating. I meant that I was busy because I had work that had to be finished within approximately 2 weeks from the day of this conversation and I had decided that I wasn’t dating until my work was done.

But I knew that she took my words to mean that I was busy going out with someone else. It made me very uncomfortable, especially when she said something to the effect of wishing me that it should go well or something like that.

It’s a good thing that the conversation took place over the phone or my face would totally have given me away. I’m a very bad liar. But I did feel like it was necessary in this case. And it wasn’t a total lie -both because I was technically busy and also I really did have someone I should have been going out with but had pushed off until I finished my work.

I really don’t think that any of the cases you are talking about are a problem, but I recommend asking a Rav for one simple reason – I think you will feel much better about it if the Rav tells you it’s fine and explains why.

I’m sure I’ve heard of or known several. Off-hand, I can think of 3 girls I know who went to the US for shidduchim, met someone there, got married and moved back to EY.In at least one of those cases, the guy had never intended to live in EY, and in fact, initially the plan was just to live in EY temporarily. Their oldest son is now in Yeshiva Gedola and they have no intention of leaving EY.

LB +1,000!

Oomis & Nisht – thanks for sharing!