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Golfer – thanks so much!!! 🙂
“You are implying the chofetz chaim foundation published the wrong halacha in their book of halachos which thousands of people learn from daily. You should contact them about that before the next printing.”
Reread my post. I implied no such thing. You, on the other hand have implied that I posted the incorrect halacha in the CR which thousands of people read.
I have not looked up your quote in the book you quoted, but I am going with the assumption that you quoted it accurately. If that is so, it is not incorrect – you simply misinterpreted the words “set off a negative reaction.”
Personally, I do not think that I would have made that mistake, but you should be aware in general whenever something is translated and/or cited, it is very easy to misunderstand the exact meaning. In fact, it is almost impossible not to, since there is no such thing as a precise translation. That is why it is always worthwhile to look things up in the original, especially before quoting them in a public place.
DG – +1,000!
LU: You wrote: “Yes, technology is causing the shidduch crisis. If it weren’t for technology, people wouldn’t be able to post narishkeit about the shidduch crisis in the CR.”
TLIK: “This is absolutely brilliant! I agree.”
Thanks! 🙂 I’m glad we agree on something!
“Chofetz Chaim – A daily companion – Day 74
” One should not praise someone in public,” says the chofetz chaim. This is because the law of averages dictates that there will be at least one person who either is jealous of the person or has something against him – in which case the praise is sure to set off a negative reaction.”By negative reaction, it is referring to someone speaking badly about the person. This halacha is brought from Klal 9, seif 2. If you look it up, you will see that the Chofetz Chaim writes is that it’s a problem if someone might speak about him negatively. He also gives an example of a case in which someone thinks badly about him but doesn’t say anything, and he says that’s not a problem.
770Chabad – thanks so much for answering.
CTL – While I hear your point, I would phrase it slightly differently. I do think it’s important to acknowledge the fact that the people in question do keep some things and therefore, I understand why the term “non-observant” bothers you.
However, I do have an issue with phrasing it: . “He observed the law according to the rules of his movement.”
The movements are kefira. Rav Moshe Feinstein makes a big distinction between a “Conservative” Jew and a Jew who acknowledges the truth of Torah and Mitzvos but doesn’t keep them. While I realize, (and I think Rav Moshe pointed out) that the Conservative Jew may not know better, he is still an apikorus (albeit unwittingly). I am not coming to judge him in any way, and it is wonderful that he tries to keep all he does, but I don’t think that WE are allowed to make a statement that in any way lends credence to the movement.
I realize that was not your intention, but I think that it would be better (and more emesdik) to state that he is not non-observant since he does in fact observe some of the Mitzvos of the Torah (without mentioning his Conservative affiliation – that is not a maaleh for us – what is a maaleh is the fact that he keeps some Mitzvos despite being Conservative).
Ubiquitin:
LU
“don’t know if I would have started the list in the first place, but once it was started, I thought that adding to it could only help. …”“The opposite is true. Praising a poster or two isnt insulting. ”
There were several people praised – 8 to be precise (7 posters and 1 moderator). Someone else seemed to be insulted at being left out, so I thought I could “undo” any hurt feelings by mentioning him. At that point, I thought that it would be appropriate to mention others as well.
“Once you start listing posters it is inevitable that someone will be omitted.”
See above. Additionally, I posted that I was not finished. My intention was that between myself and others (whom I was hoping would join in), that all posters would eventually be included. Once the list had been started and so many people mentioned, I thought that it could only help to find nice things to say about everyone.
I do think that it would be nice if during Elul, we could find nice things to say about each other.
” Also, I’m not sure the two are the same thing. If you say that you want to meet x and don’t mention y, it may be insulting to y. But I am not sure that choosing to describe a few posters is the same thing. ”
“The exact opposite is true. If you want to meet X in most cases Y wont get insulted. But if You ask to meet A, B, C, D, E …and X it is more than likely that Y will get insulted.”You missed my point. Those weren’t the two things I was comparing. I was comparing asking to meet posters vs. writing nice things about them (the other thread vs. this thread). The comparison was about the topic (meeting vs. praising) not about the numbers. ( I see though why you misinterpreted my words).
“. And if anyone feels that he was forgotten about, he can say something, and someone can mention him, ”
“Ah but that is needy and petty”I don’t see it that way at all. I was going to say that perhaps it’s a male/female thing, but LF apparently didn’t see it that way. I also didn’t, as seen in the other thread. As soon as I mentioned that I felt left out, others made sure to include me (LF actually) and then I was happy.
But thank you for letting me know that you do feel that way. I wouldn’t have thought that anyone felt that way, so I’m glad to know. I would be interested in knowing what others think regarding that point.
Bu in any case, we still get back to my first two points (that several posters were already mentioned,and that the intention was to include everyone).
And by the way, I had you in mind when I wrote that I wasn’t finished my list yet. And I’m not just saying that – I am impeccably honest.
DY – btw, I don’t think that I wrote that I necessarily agreed with you in the other thread either. I think that what I wrote was that you had a good point, which is not the same thing.
Joseph – where is that evidence to be found?
All the “research” I’ve seen about the age-gap theory seemed to be based on the fact that mathematically, if the average girl marries a boy 4 years older than her, then there will end up being more girls than boys. And I don’t even think that anyone has provided any evidence that this is even the case.
I have not heard of any “evidence” to the fact that there are actually more single girls than boys. Do you actually know of any real research that has been done?
I personally have not noticed any evidence attesting to this. I think that I know or have heard of more single boys than girls and most singles’ initiatives that I am familiar with seem to have as many boys as girls on average.
I’m not saying that’s proof, but it may indicate that the above statement is not true. From what I’ve seen, the main issue seems to be not that there are more “older girls” than “older boys”. There are plenty of older boys,
edited
“It’s not about voicing it. It’s still not okay.”
I don’t think that’s true. I think that halachically the only problem is if it voiced. Actually, in this case, I think it would be a positive thing – those who disagree can work on trying to see those people in a better light and try to figure out why others see things that way.
While I think it’s really special that people are being so ultra-sensitive to others’ feelings, personally, I think that such sensitivity would be better-placed in trying to avoid posts that insult other posters and/or asking the moderators to delete such posts.
As someone who has been badly burned in the coffee room, I am happy that there are actually posters who are taking the time to say nice things about other posters for a change.
DY – 1. I don’t know if I would have started the list in the first place, but once it was started, I thought that adding to it could only help. The point was to undo any “damage” if in fact any “damage” had taken place.
2. Also, I’m not sure the two are the same thing. If you say that you want to meet x and don’t mention y, it may be insulting to y. But I am not sure that choosing to describe a few posters is the same thing. According to that logic, it is always insulting to say something nice about someone because someone else could be insulted.
3. If anyone feels that someone has been left out, they can write about them. There is no one reason why something can’t be said about every poster. And if anyone feels that he was forgotten about, he can say something, and someone can mention him, as LF did above.
4. While it’s great that people are being sensitive to others’ feelings, I actually thought this was one of the nicest and least insulting threads around. I would prefer that people spend time posting on a thread like this than many of the others I’ve seen (and try to avoid).
“There are additional issues regarding praising someone in front of others who may disagree”
I had thought of that but was: a: hoping that no one would think of doing something like that, especially during Elul
and b) if c”v they would, I was assuming that the moderators would not let it go through.Golfer – maskim. +1. i was thinking along the same lines but don’t know if I would have been able to express it as well.
I’m lost – what did Reb Yidd? Does this have to do with subtitiles?
And what in the world is a fered, Coffee Addict?
Yes, technology is causing the shidduch crisis. If it weren’t for technology, people wouldn’t be able to post narishkeit about the shidduch crisis in the CR.
I’ll try to add more later, b”n.
To add to LB’s list:
Little Froggie is the resident hidden tzaddik who actually has a life but occasionally deigns to share his wise words of wisdom with the masses
Yekke2 is the resident Yeshiva Bochur who, B”H, is busy shteiging most of the time and only joins the CR during bein hazmanim on his heavily filtered computer (definitely no smartphones c”v for him). He is responsible for many of the halachic discussions that take place in the CR, and he can be recognized by his British tact and politeness. He generally tries to steer clear of arguments and knows how to get along with all types of people, but if c”v, anyone says anything against the Torah or Gedolei HaTorah, he will become like Pinchas, defending Kavod HaTorah full-force. He is amongst the most intelligent posters and approaches things from a Torah perspective.
Daas Yachid has a dry sense of humor and is very good at getting to the point in a few words. He is also very good at seeing the point (which often eludes most posters as they get tangled in arguments that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand) in the first place. He is also one of the best at approaching things from a Torah perspective and although quite nice, will stand up for Kavod HaTorah when necessary.
LB – thanks for the good words! And mostly, thanks for being the nicest poster!
Some of the problems with the “clear elementary school mathematics” (possibly already mentioned:
1. Most basic problem (a poster already mentioned this one): Just because boys start dating at 23ish and girls start dating at 19, that doesn’t mean that girls get married at 19 and boys get married at 23.
In fact, my impression (based on a handful of people, and no more conclusive than the opposing theory) is that there are many girls who end up in shidduchim for years precisely because they start dating at 19 but don’t end up getting married until they are a few years older, precisely because most girls and boys do end up marrying people who are close to their age!
Not only that, but since the reason for the concern is the fact that girls are stressed out about being in shidduchim for a few years, it would actually make a lot of sense for them to NOT start shidduchim right away.
For at least 2 good reasons
: 1. They probably won’t have to date for as long since they won’t be waiting for their zivug to grow up and start dating
2. If they focus on something else (work or school) meanwhile, they will have another focus in life and won’t be so stressed about not finding their beshert right away. And for those who are anti-college (like myself), it doesn’t have to be college – how about setting up some Shana Bet/Gimmel, etc programs for girls, so they can actually learn some of the things they are obligated to know? And/or they can take a practical course or get started at teaching, work, etc?
3. If in fact there is an age-gap issue, it will solve that problem without the boys getting married before they are ready and causing the divorce crisis to grow.Joseph – thanks for the explanation – that makes sense! Not sure what the answer is… it’s a good question.
I would guess that if you write Motzei Shabbos, you should follow up with the previous week’s Parsha since it’s Motzei Shabbos of last week’s Shabbos. On the other hand if you were writing the date, you would write the next weeks’ Parsha (but in that case, you probably wouldn’t mention the Parsha anyhow).
Iacisrmma – sorry, that was a typo – I meant to wrote Motzei Yom Kippur. Thanks for the correction.
What?
My mother once told me not to write official letters on Motzei Shabbos since a goy looking at the date might think I wrote it on Shabbos. I never heard anyone else say this, but I have always tried to be careful about it ever since she told me that.
Wasn’t there an organization called Torah U’mesorah that already basically did that years ago? Aren’t there already Day Schools in most communities (although not necessarily separate gender ones – but I don’t get how that would stop intermarriage, whatever other benefits it may have).
“We break the Yom Kippur Fast with a shot of whiskey and then fleishiges.”
I think that eating a fleishiks meal on Motzei Shabbos may be more than a “family tradition”. I’m not sure about this, since I never looked it up, but it may be something that really everyone one is supposed to do l’chatchila, since it’s supposed to be a real seudah. However, many people are not aware of this (if it is correct),
As for the whiskey – I think have a vague memory of my mother doing that one year and saying it was her family’s minhag, although I have never heard of anyone else doing that.
And it was the first and last time, I ever tried “shnapps”. I have a pretty bad memory of the taste.
Shopping – maskim. Most people that I know, in both Israel and the US own neither smartphones nor Internet and see no need for either.
Interestingly enough, just this past Shabbos, my friend mentioned that her husband won’t allow sharp knives in the house because he thinks they are dangerous.
(and no, I’m not joking)
Well then, according to LF, that is the way to do it!
RY -I actually once went out with a guy who spent almost the entire date (which I think was at least 4 hrs. long) explaining to me how looking for a wife is similar to looking for a dog.
Guess what? That was the last date, for some reason.
“How does YWN get news?”
From the CR of course!
Also, please note that LB is one of the nicest posters in the CR. She is definitely NOT someone you have to stay away from.
As for posters not to start up with, as LB wrote, it would be Loshon Hara. Also sometimes, it’s a matter of “getting” people and figuring out how to relate to and react to the particular poster. You kind of figure it out with time.
When I first joined the CR about a year ago, a very wise poster named Little Froggie pointed out that I should have lurked for a while before posting. After being here a year, I see his point.
ZD: “What I say now is just my opinion. ”
I’m very impressed that you started with that qualification. There are probably many posters who can learn from you.“Different Averiahs and Differnet Mitzvahs are not equal. ”
I agree 100%. And I can’t imagine that anyone with any brains would disagree with that. I think it’s a pretty basic concept in Judaism. I believe it says something to that effect in Pirkei Avos or somewhere.” I belive not all Averiahs are equal. ”
Agreed.“(I am aware that some say being Mechalel Shabbos is worse) ”
While there may be people who would say that, I don’t think that anyone whose words are worth quoting would say that.It seems pretty clear to me that according to the Torah, killing is far worse.
For one thing, it’s considered one of the three biggest aveiros.
For another, not killing is a “Mitzva Sichli (logical Mitzva)” which means that it’s something that should be obvious to everyone. On the other hand, if someone was not taught about Shabbos, he is considered a “tinok shenishba” and is not responsible for not keeping Shabbos.
For another, you are hurting another person when you murder, and generally speaking, “bein adam l’chaveiro” is considered worse than “bein adam l’makom” (although, I’m sure there are exceptions).” I personally think Killing is worse as it requires a certain moral deprativity to do such a thing”
I agree 100%. See above.” Oskar Schindler certainly had moral issues, but for what he did under almost impossible conditions puts what he did a much greater Mitzvah than any Averiahs he did.
Same with Korzchak, no he didnt keep Shabbos or Kosher (As far as I know), but what he did for those Orphans was a greater Mitzvah (IMO ONLY) than anything he did as an Averiah.”I personally wouldn’t put them in the same category. I think that committing adultery is way worse than not keeping Shabbos or Kashrus (especially for a tinok shenishba). That is something that even a goy should know is wrong, and it involves hurting others.
When it comes to Korczak, I would think that his Mitzvos outweigh his Aveiros by far. When it comes to Shindler, I have a harder time. I do think that we have to have tremendous hakaras hatov to him, but I would have a hard time respecting him or calling him a Tzaddik. But I do not know that it matters – only Hashem can judge him, and we should just have hakaras hatov for what he did for us.
But as you pointed out, most of this is a matter of opinion (although some of it probably has sources). At the end of the day, we don’t know Hashem’s judgements. There are many factors to take into consideration. And it’s not just about which aveira is worse than which. There are millions of factors besides that. That is why only Hashem can judge.
Our job is (usually – there may be some exceptions) to try to see the good in others.
As for Moshe Rabeinu, I would be very careful about using his as an example of someone who did both Mitzvos and Aveiros. His “aveira” can not possibly be compared to any of ours. It was an aveira on his level, and on his level alone. His aveiros would be Mitzvos for us.
What do you mean that you were muted?
Welcome!
Come to Lakewood if you want to see what so-called Ultra-Orthodox (more accurately known as: Yeshivish, Chareidi, or Frum) people are about, and if you want to meet super-nice people! I could write a book about how nice people in Lakewood have been to me every time I’ve been there.
From strangers (or near-strangers) opening up their homes and letting me (and others) stay by them and not making me feel the least bit like an imposition to strangers (or near-strangers) offering me rides, people I barely know giving me gourmet meals when I happened to stop by their house unexpectedly, a community of people who are always super-nice and sweet and friendly. People who are always ready to help with anything and always have a pleasant word for whomever they come into contact with.
Note: This is not to take away in any way from the above-mentioned places. I just happen to know about Lakewood, and not about the other places.
I’m surprised this thread wasn’t taken down yet – especially since the last one was.
I wonder how long it will take until it is.I know nothing about the movie, but reading this thread could make someone curious enough to watch it.
Everyone in Eretz Yisrael has a million dollar view!
I didn’t like mine, so I’m glad it’s gone.
Joseph, thanks for clarifying. But my original post which you were arguing against had to do with Hashem’s Judgment in Beis Din shel Maaleh. That is the discussion in this thread – we are talking about how we should view people who have done both big Mitzvos and big Aveiros. We were not discussing their punishment in this world.
And for the record, the specific people being discussed are dead, so their punishment in this world would be irrelevant at this point.
Translation, please?
Whatever
lol.
TLIK & Iacisrmma – most people I know do not use smartphones or Internet. Amongst the people I know, the more it’s been banned, the more careful people are.
Personally, I think that it helps me to be more careful. I do not touch Smartphones, even on the rare occasions when someone’s phone was ringing and they wanted me to pick it up because I was closer to it. I wouldn’t have known that Smartphones were something to stay away from if not for the bans. And all the warnings about Internet help me to remember to be much more careful with my Internet use and to use it less than I might have otherwise, as well as to be careful how I use it and to make sure that no children have any access.
I am sorry that you know people whose reaction to the words of the Gedolim is to davka go against them. Boruch Hashem, the people I know are not like that. If there really are people like that, then all we can do is daven for them. The Gedolim should certainly not let themselves be affected by such people.
As Rashi (B’reishis 1/26) says: …אף על פי שלא סייעוהו ביצירתו ויש מקום למינים לרדות לא נמנע הכתוב מללמד דרך ארץ
In one case, you have to hold your nose, and in the other case, you have to cover your eyes. In the first case, you can still get to where you have to go, but in the second case, you might fall or bump into someone or end up in the wrong place. or get run over, c”v.
Joseph – I’m not sure if that’s true in terms of all aspects of a goy’s judgment. I think it may apply in terms of certain aspects of his judgement – I am not 100% sure but I think that in terms of determining whether or not he kept 7 Mitzvos B’nei Noach and therefore gets a cheilik in Olam Haba, it is true.
However, that is not the only aspect of his judgment in the World To Come. It is much more complex than that. A Cheilik in Olam Haba is one type of reward, but there are others. All good deeds get rewarded and all bad deeds get punished, and Hashem takes all factors into account.
This includes every single factor – things we don’t can’t see and don’t know. Two people can seem like they are doing the same act, but only Hashem knows everything about the person and his experiences and nature etc, and every factor that will determine precisely how Hashem judges him. For example, if one of them once had an opportunity to learn from someone’s example and didn’t, Hashem would take that into account.
Avi – I do not know whether or not it’s a safek D’Rabbanan. What I do know is that many Poskim today (if not most or all) do hold that the prohibition exists today (and whether or not it permitted to be lenient in specific situations is irrelevant). Therefore, you can’t just make a blanket statement that the prohibition does not exist at all today.
“Kids these days write U+1F644”
Translation, please?
I agree with SYAG that the main issue is a lack of Emunah. I am not sure whether or not her reasoning is the same as mine, but I will explain what my theory is:
I do not have a problem with people trying to come up ways to TRY to alleviate the shidduch crisis (or any other crisis, whether or not the term “crisis” is appropriate in the first place.) The problem is when people forget that all they are doing is hishtadlus and that Hashem is the ONLY factor involved in anything that happens. Everything else is hishtadlus, PERIOD.
Hishtadlus does not cause things to happen. Only Hashem causes things to happen. When people say that “x” is THE reason why something is happening, and doing Y will solve the problem, that is a gross lack of emunah.
Do your hishtadlus, but don’t forget that that is not the issue nor is it the solution.
I don’t know the reasons why Hashem does things, but I have often wondered if the reason for the shidduch crisis and the kids-at-risk crisis is that Hashem is trying to show us that we are not in control.
We take too much for granted. When someone doesn’t get married, we say, “What is the reason for it? What went wrong?” Chazal say that making a shidduch is as difficult as splitting the sea. We should not be asking, “Why isn’t Chanie married yet?” We should be asking, “Why is Rivky married? How did that happen? That is such a nes!”
The problem with our generation is that we think we are in control. When something doesn’t go the way we expect, we are shocked! And our reaction is, “What should we do now?”
We should not be shocked when things don’t go the way we planned – we should be shocked when they do! And when they don’t, our reaction should not be, “What should WE be doing (on a practical level)? Our reaction should be to remember that HASHEM is in control and not us! And maybe that is what He wants us to learn from it.
Yes, we should try to do what we can – but remember that while hishtadlus is important, all it is is hishtadlus! Only Hashem makes things happen. Our reaction should be to remember that it’s a NES when people get married and it is min hashamayim, and what we need to do is to work on our Emunah and Bitachon and our tefilos and figuring out what SPIRITUAL areas we need to work on. And it certainly should NOT be to think that we are in control and we can SOLVE the problem.
So do your hishtadlus – but don’t call it THE SOLUTION. And as you do your hishtadlus, remember that the Mesilas Yesharim says that hishtadlus is muchrach (necessary) but not mo’il (the cause). Don’t pretend that you know the cause or the solution.
And take this as an opportunity to remind yourself that Hashem is in control. And turn to Him to help you figure out what you should be working on in the Spiritual Realm – since that is the only real solution.
One of the problems with saying that the age gap theory is THE reason for the fact that there are so many “older singles” is the following:
That could only be the case if there were only older girls and no older boys. The fact is that there are many older single boys. I do not know how the numbers of older single girls compares to the number of older single boys, but that is irrelevant. Either way, there are many older single boys.
This means two things:
1. While the age-gap theory may explain why there are older single girls, it does not explain why there are older single boys. Single boys are people too, and they also need to get married, and they also have a shidduch crisis. The age-gap theory ignores that.
2. According to the “musical chairs analogy”, the older single girls have NO one they can marry. That is not true – most older single girls have boys they could have married if they had wanted to. Maybe they had very good reasons for not doing so, but the point is that the analogy is incorrect, and that the number issue can not possibly be the ONLY issue and it is probably not the main issue either.
At best, it is ONE factor, and probably not the main one.
WTP +1!
Ubiquitin – This is definitely a record. I agree with everything you wrote except for the last sentence of your first post which I’m not sure about (but even that depends on exactly what you meant by it. It is somewhat ambiguous and open to interpretation).
I would also add that aside from being an inaccurate analogy, I find the musical chairs analogy to be extremely offensive and a terrible way to view the process of getting married. It is particularly offensive to girls, especially since the Torah view is that it is the guy who is supposed to be seeking his missing half and not the other way around.