Lilmod Ulelamaid

Just remember the song, “I am Yosef, is my father still alive?” (It’s still running through my head).

That’s what Yosef said to his brothers when he revealed himself to them. And you can remember this now, thanks to my thread!

Lightbrite – there are many shadchanim who don’t insist on getting paid. Some don’t charge, and others only take money if the people can afford it. Someone I know interviewed a shadchan who said that sometimes when the couple is poor, he gives the money back as a wedding gift.

Other shadchanim tell you straight-out before you meet them that they charge x amount of money. So if you can’t afford it, you don’t go to meet them. You don’t have to go to that shadchan and you don’t have to go to a shadchan at all.

I was really annoyed by one shadchan who called me out of the blue having gotten my number from someone. I wasn’t interested in meeting her or didn’t have time, and she kept pressurring me. When I finally agreed, she told me that she charges a certain amount of money that I didn’t have.

I told her I didn’t have that amount of money. She mentioned that she has a lower rate for people who can’t afford it, so I was like, “great”, but then she told me that it’s only for baalei teshuva because they are poor. So I tried to explain to her that I was also poor, but she couldn’t understand how it’s possible for an ffb to be poor, and she kept insisting that I couldn’t possibly be as poor as a baal teshuva.

The whole thing was really upsetting. Don’t keep pressuring someone to meet with you and then tell them that you charge money! Actually, it’s usually the ones who charge who pressure me like that.

I only started using Q-tips since I came to EY. My doctor in the US told me not to use them, so I listened to him while I was there. Once I was back in EY, I decided I don’t have to listen to him anymore.

I am quite happy with the Q-tips here, never having used anything else.

Thanks for the warning LB! I was starting to think it sounded like fun.

Well, there goes my plan for my next date…

This is actually the best generation that has ever been:

1. We are much closer to Moshiach than ANY OTHER generation ever was.

2. We have WAY MORE accumulated zchusim than ANY OTHER generation ever had.

3. We have WAY MORE accumulated yesurim than ANY OTHER generation ever had (and “yesurim mechaprim” “suffering provides atonement”.)

4. MOST importantly of all – I am part of it, and so are you! So smile, and have a great day! 🙂

LB -while it may be okay to pass a place where there are untzniusly dressed women in order to get to work, this sounds like a different type of situation to me.

1. They are not just passing a place where there is pritzus; they are working in a place of pritzus.

2. More importantly, they aren’t just working there; they are creating the place and encouraging others to be there. They are the ones who are making the “kosher cruise” for other Jews.

I and “dan l’kaf zchus” that they must have asked a sheilah. I am just wondering how this works and why it’s okay. Even if it weren’t assur to be judgmental, I certainly don’t know enough to have an opinion on it. I just am curious as to how it works.

I was surprised that there is a hashgacha because it sounds like they are encouraging others to sin. But maybe the reason for it is that they assume that most of these people would be going on the cruise anyhow, so it’s better that it be kosher and have kosher entertainment, and that it is why it is muttar for the musicians and masgichim to be there. In terms of themselves, it is parnassah as you said, and in terms of inciting others, they are actually preventing them from doing worse things.

Also, I think that CT Lawyer said that cruises used to be different, so it’s possible that these things started when they weren’t a problem, and it just takes the oilam a while to realize that things have changed.

LB- thanks for clarifying. I’m sorry for thinking you were being close-minded.

After I thought about it, I could hear what you are saying. The truth is that the one time I can remember specifically being told about a guy that he is makpid on no-internet (and no-sheitels as well), I did get nervous.

Even though those are both issues that I either agree with or am fine with, I was concerned that the fact that the person redting the shidduch made a point of mentioning these things meant that she was concerned that it showed something about his general personality/mentality. It was also the way she said it, and she later confirmed that was her point. Meanwhile, during the checking process I found out that he really is overly-rigid.

The point is that while there is nothing wrong (and even a lot right) with not wanting internet in the home, I can see where in SOME cases the fact that they are making an issue of this CAN be a sign of over-rigidity. (but of course each case has to be looked into).

A lot has to do with the person’s age and community though. As an older single, I don’t even bring up the issue of internet when I speak to shadchanim. I feel like it’s hard enough to find a normal older guy who doesn’t watch tv/movies.

Shadchanim will even try getting me to compromise on tv/movies. That I won’t compromise on, b”n, but even though I really don’t want internet in my future home, I feel like it’s something to discuss with the guy as opposed to being a deal-breaker for a first date. I don’t know if I’m right, but that is my approach.

In this case, based on your last post, it sounds like the guy may be suffering from baal teshuva syndrome, and like he would be better off in a Frumer community, where he can just be himself and won’t have to feel like he is always fighting the tide. He may need therapy too (like most people in the world.)

Is it possible for him to move to another community? Is that an option for him? Maybe Eretz Yisrael would be good for him? Or Lakewood (l’havdil)?

LB -thanks, I think that will cover the hair straightening, and since I’m not paying anyone to set me up, that is all I need :).

(yes, I’m joking. I know you are not sending me $36).

GAW, Benignuman wrote: “From what I have seen, early dating is as you describe. But as the couple become more relaxed with each other, and/or as the individuals have dated more people, things change. Yes, the less yeshivish you get the worse the problem becomes, but even with BMG boys schok (as I defined it earlier) is the norm not the exception for later dates.”

He is not only talking about once they know they are getting married. And either way, I can’t imagine that he thinks that flirting is the norm for typical seriously-Yeshivish youth.

Unless he is defining flirting very differently than I would. Maybe he is defining flirting as any kind of “laughing and having fun” in which case we are back to Truth Wins and my contention that some people need the “laughing and having fun” before they can get engaged/married. And I think this is particularly true for older singles.

Joseph – since golfer won’t take you up on your deal, can I have the $2,500 you were going to pay her to have your shoes shined, so I can get a date with a nice, normal Talmid Chacham with great middos, social skills and personality? I’ll even make it a beshow if need be.

Golfer – do you actually know anyone like that???

1. We don’t know what the Gedolim said about this.

2. Even if the Gedolim gave their approval (which we don’t know), I’m sure they never said that this has to happen or that someone is not allowed to protest.

3. She certainly has a right to speak to Roshei Yeshiva about it and express her opinion.

Golfer – Throw in a free hair straightening, and guarantee me a date with a nice, normal, Talmid Chacham with great middos, social skills, and personality, and it’s a deal.

Starting the collections now… who wants to donate for a worthwhile cause?

Gavra at Work – thanks for clarifying. I don’t think that’s what Benignuman was saying though. He seemed to be saying that just having fun and/or laughing on a date were problematic. He also seemed to think that what he is talking about is something common amongst typical Yeshivish youth, and I don’t think these people flirt.

And Joseph was talking about how everyone should have b’shows.

“Can that maybe be a reason why a shadchan would take money like this before redting a shidduch? Of course!”

Everything you are saying is true, but $10,000 is extreme. I was about to write that I never heard of such a thing, but..

a friend of mine told me recently that “matchmaking” is becoming popular in the secular world, and I think she told me that they charge a ton of money. I guess they can get away with it because there are so few of them doing it, and it is such an unusual profession, unlike in our circles, where anyone can make a shidduch and you don’t necessarily have to pay them (maybe just some kind of gift to be fulfill your halachic obligation).

Is that where you heard of this ProJew? Because I never in my life heard of such a thing and I have trouble believing it’s true. Even if there is someone like that, I can’t imagine there are too many.

L’maaseh, they can charge what they want and you don’t have to use their services.

Never heard of such a thing in my life. I think you need to find other shadchanim to go to -unless of course, these shadchanim are so amazing that you are practically guaranteed to find your zivug, in which case it might be worth it to try to raise the money.

I only remember being charged once or twice just to meet the shadchan, and it was a relatively minimal amount – maybe 100 shekalim, or something like that.

“lilmod, only meshum eiva; m’ikkur hadin it’s assur to be mechallel Shabbos for that.”

I know that, but l’maaseh you still have to.

M’ikar hadin you can also eat milk an hour after meat, but l’maaseh you still have to wait 6 hours (unless possibly, if you are Dutch or Yekke and have a minhag to wait less, but even then, it may not be so pashut).

ZD – that may very well be, but that still doesn’t mean that she wants a video of herself on the internet.

I never heard of anyone getting out for religious reasons. I was only called up for jury duty twice. One time, I tried to get out because of a work conflict but was unable to. Meanwhile, I figured out that my number was high enough that I probably wouldn’t be called in anyhow, and I was right.

The second time, I was in Israel and only found out about it afterwards. Apparently, I was getting all these notices that I was in trouble for not responding and I was going to be arrested or something like that. My friend who picked up the mail for me called them and explained that I was in Israel, so they were like, “ok, fine, no problem”.

I listened again. She states very clearly that her issue is not the parking ; it’s the ruchniyus. There is also no mention that she wanted to be videotaped or wanted this online. She does say that she would be happy if it got in the newspapers, but that is not the same thing.

I would imagine Yom Yerushalayim will be made a big deal of. I don’t know about the rest, but I doubt it.

Do the chilonim and government celebrate Yom Yerushalayim? I can’t remember .

“I think they have their own kitchen and dining room.’

I didn’t mean the food – I meant the cruises are treif in other ways besides the food (according to what people are writing here). When mashgichim give hashgachos, is it only about the food? Do they look at other things as well and refuse to give hashgacha if there are other problems? Also, if there really are pritzus problems, how is it okay for the mashgichim to be on board?

“Rosh Yeshiva of BMG, HaRav HaGaon RKBH Aaron Kotler Shlitah.”

R’ Aaron Kotler is not the Rosh Yeshiva.

What does RKBH stand for?

Forming connections with students does not have to mean manipulation. You are right that unfortunately, it often does, but that does not have to be the case.

The schools need to focus on hiring emotionally mature teachers who know how to form connections without manipulation. One of the problems is that the schools often hire very young teachers of both genders. They should certainly not be hiring young male teachers.

An emotionally mature teacher is someone who is comfortable with herself, who doesn’t force relationships with students, and doesn’t form relationships with students for her own fulfillment. She makes it clear to the students that she is there for them if they want to form a relationship with her, but it is their choice. Obviously, everyone is human, so it is impossible to form a relationship with someone that is completely about them and not at all about you, but the focus should be on what’s good for the student and not the teacher’s fulfillment that she could feel good about herself because all these students are connecting with her.

You can not get rid of the concept of teachers connecting with students altogether. That is one of the main points of seminary. Girls’ education is very different from boys’ education.

It is true that the fact that someone learned in Brisk for 10 years doesn’t mean that he will have the emotional maturity to form healthy relationships with his students. That is precisely why the main qualification for a seminary teacher is not necessarily their educational background.

One way to do things could be the model you suggested that there are 2 separate roles – there are people who are there to teach and there are people who are there to connect with. That could be a legitimate model for a seminary. But then it has to be clear (to both the educators and students) what each person’s role is.

But l’maaseh, that is not how most seminaries work. There may be a few teachers who it’s known that they just come in to impart information and then leave. But for the most part, that is not how seminaries work. This is probably because people see the main goal in girls’ education as being to form connections with them and to help them grow religiously and emotionally, and the learning is seen as a means to an end.

I think someone asked him/her about it, and he/she said it was a private joke.