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“(I’m speaking from a halachic perspective, not trying to give mussar.)”
I understand that; I don’t take halachic discussions personally. But thank you for pointing that out.
It would be a little hard to explain why I put it in the same category, but I had my reasons. On the one hand, in terms of the lady with the sick child, maybe I’m not exactly understanding the case, but it seems to me that it is not an absolute “ones”- why would a sick child prevent someone from lighting candles? And why couldn’t someone else in the house light? But then again, I’ve never had a sick child, so it could be I’m not “getting it”.
On the other hand, in terms of my case, I don’t want to go into all the details, because it’s too hard to explain, but basically, I felt like for me it was similar to the lady taking care of her sick child. And just like it would be hard for me to understand a mother taking care of her sick child, it would be hard for someone else to understand my situation.
But you just made me realize something – if I do ask the sheilah, I have to make sure to find someone whom I can explain my situation to.
ZD – that is a good point, but that didn’t seem to be what GAW was saying.
Also, the developers quoted R’ Aaron Kotler and not the Roshei Yeshivas. So while it’s probable that he asked the Roshei Yeshiva, l’maaseh they were not the ones being quoted.
LB -thanks so much for +1ing me, but what were you +1ing me for?
I think “moron” is rather exaggerated and uncalled-for. But your anivus is impressive.
I bow to your superior middos.
Who’s the other one – me?
Remember, I can’t be you because of the Shabbos issue.
DY: “That’s not even close to being in prison (Mishnah Berurah’s case) or being busy with a sick child (SS”K’s case), so I would say yes, you should add.
There are other factors, though, (such as that there was light where you ate), so definitely ask a shailah.”
Thank you, will look into it, b”n. Tizke l’Mitzvos!
“DY: What if she dreamt that she was lighting?
Not an oines.
That reminds me of the yeshiva bochur who misses Shacharis. The mashgiach asked him what happened.
He replied:
“I got into a huge fight with the yetzer hora, who wanted me to sleep late, but I kept fighting him and fighting him. Finally, I won, and was about to get up, but was so exhausted from fighting, that I fell asleep again.”
lol. sounds similar to my excuses for things like this.
“The Mishnah Berurah’s case of oines is where she was in prison. Anything short of complete oines, the minhag/din is to add.
Sleeping through is not an oines. She should have set an alarm or some type of shomer.
If you want some more cases spelled out, see R’ Ribiat’s sefer on 39 Melachos.”
Thank you. I will try to look into it, b”n. I was assuming that shocheich meant “forgetting” and didn’t mean “anything that is not a pure ones”. Maybe I’m wrong, and I will have to look into it.
It does seem to me that the category of “shocheich” may not be as broad as you are saying. The example of “ones” given in SS”K is a lady taking care of her sick son. That does not sound like a “complete ones” to me, and in fact sounds similar to my cases and perhaps yours and LB’s examples as well.
Also, he writes that if someone made a mistake, it is not clear if she gets the penalty. That doesn’t sound like “complete ones” to me.
Regarding sleeping, personally, I can’t handle alarm clocks or being woken up by someone. I have a pretty good mental alarm clock, B”H, and when it doesn’t work, it usually means that I really needed the sleep. Also, what if she just conked out? I would think that would be “ones”.
GAW – I’ll let everyone else explain why you can’t just decide that R’ Aaron Kotler is the Rosh Yeshiva.
But, I will just point out that if you are giving him that title based on the fact that he is in charge of financial decisions, he is certainly not Daas Torah which is what this discussion had been about, and no one is obligated to listen to him.
leftist
teacher.
(Thanks LB! got it now!)
“(he doesn’t answer the question here, but gives the source where it is answered.)
Here, the Rema quotes Rishonim that adding doesn’t detract from a corresponding number.
http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x1196″
Thank you! I will try to look at it when I have a chance.
LB: “DY: What if she dreamt that she was lighting?”
lol, I did that with Krias Shema once. I fell asleep on the couch, and then reminded myself that I had to wake up to say Krias Shema. I said the entire Krias Shema and then I opened my eyes. I realized that I must have just said Krias Shema in my sleep because I thought my eyes were open when I said it. I really remembered saying every word, but I must have been asleep.
I was trying to figure out afterwards if it counted or not.
Thank you DY for answering my question. I’m glad someone finally decided to actually answer my question instead of accusing me of not having asked it! Thank you!
So it sounds like you are assuming that negligence would fall under the halachic category of “forgetting”. LB seemed to make that assumption as well. I wonder what you are basing that assumption on?
Why would you think that “forgetting” means anything other than forgetting?
As I mentioned in a previous post, if that is the case, I may have a lot of extra candles I should be lighting every week!
There were a few times when I was spending Shabbos at a friend’s house and running late and got there after shkiya. In terms of chilul Shabbos, it wasn’t a problem since I was walking and I made sure that I was within the Eruv before shkiya. But the problem was that I got there too late to light candles, and I couldn’t light at home since I was neither sleeping nor eating at home.
If I saw I was running late, I would call my friend to ask her to light for me, but sometimes, by the time I realized, it was too late or I couldn’t get through to her.
It didn’t occur to me that I have to light extra from now on (it wasn’t “shogeg”), but now I am wondering if I do.
LB- I wasn’t talking about you. I specifically said that I was only talking about someone who is already at the stage that they are used to lighting, which doesn’t sound like it’s the case by you.
Also, the cases you mentioned are different. I hadn’t thought that not having candles counts as “forgetting”. You didn’t forget to light at candle lighting time – you just couldn’t light because you didn’t have candles.
But, I wonder if the halacha category of “forgetting” is broader than I initially thought and would include such a case? I am starting to wonder if some of the times that I have missed candle-lighting were considered to be in the halachic category of “shogeg”. Maybe the category is broader than I thought. Alternatively, maybe it’s narrower than others think. Something to look into. Thank you, Lightbrite, for opening my eyes to this. I think I have missed candle lighting several times in my life, but it never occurred to me that I had to add on candles. Either I thought those cases didn’t count as “forgetting” (because I didn’t forget to light, and it seemed to me that I was “ones”, or because I just forgot that there is such a halacha and didn’t think to ask a sheilah as to whether my cases were considered “ones” or “forgetting”.
Thank you Lightbrite for enlightening me!
Regarding the question I asked in a previous post – does anyone know of any other cases (besides the 5 possibilities I came up with) where someone could forgot to light but didn’t forget it was Shabbos- I hope no one felt put on the spot by that question.
While I am interested in knowing of other possibilities, I realize that it could be embarrassing to answer that question. However, you could just say that it happened to your friend, and there’s no reason that anyone would know the difference.
DY – it was my own – that’s why I said to ask a sheilah. When it comes to missing davening, such a person would be considered “ones” and not a “maizid” and t/f would be able to do tashlumim.
Maybe the halacha is different by candlelighting? Do you have a reason for thinking that in such a case a person is considered shogeg and not ones?
I just reread your post – your assumption that it’s not “ones” is that it’s preventable. I don’t think that’s true. But I would be interested in hearing why you think that is the case.
Some more interesting points from Shmiras Shabbos K’hilchasa’s footnotes:
1. He asks the question: “If the point of lighting 2 is because of Shamor and zachor, why are you allowed to light more than 2? (he doesn’t answer the question here, but gives the source where it is answered.)
2. Some light 7 for the days of the week, and some light 10 for the 10 Dibros, and some light one for each child.
3. He says there is more than reason brought down for the minhag of lighting one for each child. One reason he gives is the reason that WTP gave earlier – a penalty for missing when you give birth. This is from the Mishna Halachos who proves from this that you do receive the penalty even when you are “ones” (“forced”).
So it seems that there are opinions that you get the penalty even if it wasn’t “shogeg” (by mistake). I wonder if anyone goes by this l’maaseh. It’s interesting that the Shemiras Shabbos k’hilchasa only mentions this opinion in passing, in a footnote.
Apparently, this was in the 4% of cases. Try reading it again.
Okay, so I finally got around to looking up some of these halachos in Shmiras Shabbos K’hilchasa:
1. You fulfill your obligation with one candle, but it is a Mitzvah to light more, and the Minhag is to light at least two. (43/2). (from the way it’s phrased, it sounds like it may be a bigger Mitzvah to light a lot of candles.)
2. You should not light a candleholder that has 7 branches made of metal (43/2). (I never heard of this halacha before!).
3.If you are accustomed to lighting a certain number of candles, you are not allowed to light less. (43/3) This only applies when you are lighting in your own house. If you are away, the minhag is to light two candles.
4. If you are accustomed to lighting big candles, you can’t light smaller ones. This also only applies when you are lighting in your own house. (43/3) (this was also news to me!)
5. If the wife wants to start lighting more candles, she is only allowed to do so if her husband doesn’t mind (43/3). (there’s the answer to your question, LB!)
6. If she forgets to light, she has to light one extra candle every week (43/5).
7. If she forgets more than once, she has to add one candle for each time that she forgot (ibid).
8. If she is poor, it is enough to light bigger candles every week or use a little more oil (ibid).
9. This halacha only applies if she FORGOT and not if she is “ones”/coerced (ibid). (so it would seem that someone who couldn’t light because she was asleep would not have to light extra – but she should ask a sheilah to be sure).
10. If she didn’t light because she made a mistake – either in the halacha or the reality – it is not clear what the halacha is and it is possible that she doesn’t have to add on (ibid, footnote 36).
11. If the candles blow out, she doesn’t have to add on, unless she could have relit them and didn’t. If it was Yomtov or if it’s Shabbos but she wasn’t mekabel Shabbos yet and it there was still time to light before Shabbos and she she didn’t, then she has to add on a candle in the future. If she was mekabel Shabbos but she could have asked someone else to relight the candles and she didn’t, it is a question if she has to add on in the future (ibid).
Perhaps reading what people write instead of making false accusations would be the appropriate courtesy to extend to other posters.
A Jew is not allowed to do something for no purpose, so they would only be allowed to board the ship in the first place if there were a purpose – such as attaining the menuchas hanefesh (peace of mind) and simchas hachaim (joy in life) needed to be ovdei Hashem and to be able to learn b’hasmada (with diligence).
If their boarding as a purpose for their avodas Hashem, that would override any pollution concerns (assuming they are doing nothing that is illegal or unusual).
What? Isn’t that obvious?
Ubiquitin – the laws do not always follow Halacha. I think that I heard that the law in this case is not according to Halacha, but I am not 100% sure.
Right, I figured that’s what you meant. I don’t know who Cecil the lion is, but I think I know about Harambe. That was the gorilla with the 4 year old boy, right?
Kitov – in such a situation, I would recommend possibly limiting the amount of dating but not cutting it out altogether. This can mean taking breaks, or only going out once every month or two or only going out if it sounds very shayich.
For a guy in that situation (and possibly even a girl), I would recommend considering the possibility of therapy and/or speaking to a dating coach and/or sitting down and trying to figure out if there is a reason he is not married yet. There doesn’t have to be a reason, but there often is (at least for guys). The reason may not be something that they can do anything about, but on the other hand it might be.
Some possibilities are:
1. They may have some emotional issue that they can work out by going to a therapist.
2. They may be going out with the wrong type of girls. Maybe they need to make it clearer what they are looking for. Maybe they need to move to a different community. Maybe they need to do something different in order to get set up with the right type of girls.
3. Maybe they have a middos or personality issue that they need to work on.
4. Maybe they are too close-minded about what they are looking for and they should be more open about who they go out with.
5. Maybe they say no too fast and don’t give things a chance.
6. Maybe they need lessons in dating.
7. Maybe they have a fear of marriage that they need to find a way to work out.
8. Maybe they don’t want to get married badly enough, and they have to think of a way to change that.
9. Maybe they are not happy enough or have gotten too mellow over the years, and they need to change or add something in their lives to change that.
DY is married – don’t know about RT.
DY’s comment is actually neutral or pro-marriage – some people have great marriages, and the rest get divorced. Sounds like he thinks that marriage is supposed to be great because if it’s not, you get divorced. 🙂
RT’s is negative – maybe he’s single.
“Does a person have to continue looking for his zivug even after he is 53 years old ?”
yes, if he’s a man.
“Must a person continue to make histadlus forever ?”
Ditto.
I think the point was that the left-wing media treats animals better than people. Hence, if they treat Palestinians like animals, they are being bigoted towards Palestinians (and treating them too nice).
Actually, even if they treated them like animals should be treated, they are still being bigoted towards Palestinians, since Palestinians are worse than animals.
NCB – if the media treats animals and Palestinians the same, then that’s mean to the animals and t/f it’s not bigotry towards the animals, but rather it’s against them.
I didn’t realize that you are supposed to do 2 words and that trainer was used already.
Let’s try again:
trailor
rapster
btw, CTlawyer, I don’t think that “nisayon” counts.
WTP – That is “Ones” (coercion), not forgetting.
I was assuming that forgetting to light candles would mean that someone forgot about Shabbos altogether, but I just remembered that there are many girls who don’t light candles before they are married, so they wouldn’t necessarily associate Shabbos starting with lighting candles.
Someone who is not used to lighting candles could easily forget to light candles. But I think that if someone like me (who has been lighting candles from the age of 5) forgot to light candles, that would mean that I forgot that it’s Shabbos, since Shabbos starts for me when I light candles, so forgetting one would mean forgetting the other.
I suppose someone could theoretically have an unusually crazy day with emergency situations lo aleinu, and they could forget to light candles, but I still think that is a highly unusually situation.
Has anyone out there ever heard of anyone forgetting to light candles (not “ones” but forgetting)?
Maybe a Yomtov going into Shabbos could be a situation where someone might forget?
Or maybe a doctor or nurse who is working on Shabbos?
trainer
DY – lol.
RT- I think that’s before marriage. (If you meant “Acharei Mos Kedoshim Emor”)
LB – All three are names of Parshios. “V’zos Habracha” means “and this is the Blessing”. “Shlach” means “Send”.
“Acharei Mos” means after the death.
Do you get it now?
How are animals treated?
NCB – I have never heard of someone forgetting to light candles (BT or FFB). That would be like forgetting that Shabbos comes every Friday night,in which case, the person is apt to do a lot worse things than forgetting to light candles.
I suppose people who have Alzheimer’s might forget to light candles, but they usuallly have caretakers to remind them. And if they forgot anyhow, I would guess that the Psak would be that they don’t have to light an extra candle (but their caretaker should ask a sheilah).
“Or people might be sleeping/getting ready for Shabbos.”
Or keeping Shabbos, and then sleeping through the Taanis.
takamamash – Did she charge you $1,500 just to meet her, or was that the fee for actually introducing you to the girl you got engaged to?
Ubiquitin, he was sent to protect Am Yisrael. Part of protecting Am Yisrael is killing terrorists.
I am behind him 100%. A go’el hadam is allowed to kill a Jew who accidentally killed his relative. We should certainly be allowed to kill our enemies who are out to destroy us and kill us deliberately.
Who knows how many lives he saved? He will receive a tremendous schar in Olam Haba for his actions.
And he certainly did not deserve to be convicted of manslaughter.
Please note: I do not know whether or not l’chatchila a person in such a situation should act as he did or not. One would have to ask a sheilah. But I think it was completely understandable, and having done it, I certainly don’t think he should be condemned for his actions and he certainly should not be treated like a murderer.
It’s not always in a person’s choice. If someone is single (not by choice), they must recognize that it is from Hashem and it is good and try to see the positive in it, while still davening and doing hishtadlus. They should also make sure to maintain an appropriate balance between hishtadlus and living their life productively meanwhile and trying to find things they can accomplish precisely because they are single.
“then drop 3/4th of the stuff after burning out, it has greater negative consequences than if I did less than 1/4th of those mitzvot incrementally and then consistently?’
Yes.
“Or maybe that’s one theory or angle and maybe it’s not black and white and always forward in regards to growing forward and upward.”
that is true as well, but the first point is more important.
Fifth of all: “Gaw feels that based on what he quoted he got carte blanche to protest the shittos of the Gedolim.
Sure looks that way to me too.”
No one said any such thing. Again, as I said before, we have no idea what any Gedolim said about this. And all I said is that she has a right to discuss the issue with the Roshei Yeshiva.
LU,
“This is actually the best generation that has ever been”
How do you know any of those things (besides #4)?”
Reb Yidd:
“1 is simple math.”
So are 2 and 3.
I think that I once heard from Rav Leff, Shlita: Someone asked the Chofetz Chaim how we could be deserving of having Mashiach come in our generation since other generations were better, and he said that we have the accumulated zchusim of all the generations.
Golfer – First of all, there are halachic problems with what you are writing, as I pointed out before. Even if you are right, it would still be loshon hora. When you speak L”H about someone else, no matter what they did, speaking L”H is worse.
Second of all, you have completely misquoted me. I wrote, “She certainly has a right to speak to Roshei Yeshiva about it and express her opinion. As ZD wrote, “Speaking to the gedolim doenst mean shouting and screaming in public”.
Third of all, you contradict yourself. First you say that you agree with ZD, and then you claim that my saying that she has a right to speak to the Roshei Yeshiva means she has a right to shout and scream in public.
Fourth of all, (and most important), our obligation is to try to be “dan l’kaf zchus” period.
Meno, lol, I totally thought you were serious. I was wondering why I hadn’t noticed that before – I thought I just wasn’t paying attention.
So here’s the question: would I be more spacy if you were serious and I had never noticed that about the bags before or am I more spacy for thinking you were serious when you weren’t?
Winnie the pooh: +1. That is kind of what I was trying to say. Thank you for expressing it much more clearly and accurately.
“BTW: Why don’t you have to listen to your American doctor now that you’re in Israel?
Is it true that living in EY makes you immune to medical advice?”
lol. I was half-joking. It was really just a coincidence that around the time I came back, I decided not to listen anymore because my ears were really bothering me.
But maybe I also feel more spiritual and free’er here.
Also, it’s easier for me to get to stores and shopping centers here, so maybe I was more likely to notice the Q-tips in the store and think of getting them.
LB – there are halachos brought down about how it’s assur to set someone up with someone who would be bad for them. When I have a chance, I’ll try to look it up for you, b”n.
LB – from what Iacisrmma here wrote, you would only light an extra candle if you FORGET to light. This is an extremely rare occurence and probably the reason NCB has rarely seen this observed.
I seem to remember learning something like this as well. B”n, I will try to look it up when I have a chance.
As far as bt’s are concerned, I could hear where if someone is just starting to light, it is possible that they could forget a lot. But that would mean that they haven’t really started lighting regularly yet, so it’s hard for me to imagine they would get a penalty for “forgetting” until they are at the stage that they really light regularly and the “forgetting” was an unusual occurrence.
“She certainly has a right to speak to Roshei Yeshiva about it and express her opinion.” does not = “I’ll remember that next time anyone brings up “following the Gedolim”. I certainly have the right to protest and fight their shittos until I have the time to discuss the issue with them directly, without an intermediary. Looks like I get to vote Meretz after all :)”
Randomex – that clearly can’t apply to everything. There are things that a person has to make clear beforehand, and things they don’t.
I think Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky zatsal told a boy that the fact that a girl read the New York Times shouldn’t be a reason not to date her, but on the other hand, he felt that t.v. should be a deal breaker.
These things depend on the issue, the person, and as you pointed out, the generation and society.
Of course, it’s possible that today, Rav Yaakov would say that the New York Times should be a deal breaker. Reading the NY times in 2017 is very different than reading the NY Times in the 1950’s, 60’s, or 70’s (or whenever the story took place).