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OOT = out of town. I only know that from the CR.
Moderator 100- Thanks so much! Shkoyach! + 1 million!
ZD – what you are saying would only apply to someone who is a molestor, not to someone who cheats on his taxes or does other aveiros.
Even regarding someone who is a molestor, there are still many halachos and issues involved and you have to ask a sheilah. The fact that someone has been accused of molesting someone at some point in their life does not necessarily give everyone in the world a blanket heter to talk about it whenever and wherever they feel like it.
For example, there was a boy who went through a difficult period of time in his life and did not act appropriately with girls, although there is no reason to think that there was any “ones” involved. He went to therapy, dealt with his issues and turned around and was totally frum and not a danger to society in any way.
After he got help and had turned around, someone went and posted about him online “warning” people to stay away from him as he was a molester. If you continued reading the email carefully, according to what the person claimed he did, he wasn’t even a molester. Unless you think that girls are always victims and not responsible for their own actions, which seems to be the contemporary approach but is ridiculous. And certainly doesn’t justify speaking LH about someone.
Additionally, he was fine at that point and not a danger to society. So it was really disgusting that someone went and shmeared him publicly like that, especially after he had worked really hard to do teshuva and get back on track.
The point is if you think it’s mutter to say something because you think there’s a toeles: Ask a sheilah. It’s not so hard. There’s a Shmiras Halashon hotline you can call any night between 9:00 – 10:30 (I think). I think you can find the number online.
There are many conditions required for something to be allowed. These conditions are rarely fulfilled.
“Is it also Ok to speak Lashon Harah about people who molest? Abuse, Cheat in business or taxes or other averiahs”
“That argument cuts both ways – are you (or the others here) makpid to never criticize or talk about all those whom you just mentioned?”
I think his point was the other way around. That he has been accused of speaking LH by possibly some of the same people who are claiming here that this is not LH. So he is saying that they should either acknowledge that this is LH or not accuse him of speaking LH.
However, I think the response to that would be that the two types of scenarios are not the same. The equivalent example would be someone who molests in public and claims that it is halachically permissible.
That is Loshon Hora.
Agreed. Deleted -100
That’s very interesting, MDG. Thank you for sharing.
Lilmod:”If I understand correctly, you thought that I was starting out assuming your intentions were to gossip and that was my proof that you were speaking LH (in the narrow sense)”
DY, I’m sorry that you took my words that way (if you really did) and that I didn’t clarify them sooner. I actually had no idea that that was you thought I meant (if I am correct in that assumption) until I wrote those words (well actually right before I wrote those words). Was that really what you thought I meant? Chas v’shalom – I never thought you were the type who likes gossiping for the sake of gossiping at all.
I hope it’s clear now what I meant.
I was thinking of the Meraglim who were big tzadikim and intended l’sheim Shamayim but must have had some hidden small unconscious aspect of non-l’sheim shamayim intentions.
Also, now that you clarified what your intentions were (which had not been clear before), it probably wasn’t true at all. So I take it back (at least in your case), BUT I still think I was right for writing it since it got you to explain what you meant. Also, it wasn’t meant for you specifically – it was meant for anyone who was speaking LH, so if you weren’t, then it doesn’t apply to you anyhow.
Also, now that you clarified what you meant, I’m not so sure a sheilah is necessary. I wrote that post before I registered the end portion of your post.
DY: “However, since it was plastered all over the news, it is a mitzvah l’farseim that you are not allowed to put yourself in a position of pikuach nefesh intentionally.”
The way you are phrasing things here is very different than the way it was phrased in the previous posts in this thread. I don’t know if it was your posts or others, since I can’t remember exactly who said what.
The way you are phrasing it now is for sure less problematic, although I would qualify the statement further.
One of the problems with the way things were phrased before is that they seemed to be a personal condemnation of Jared and Ivanka instead of a factual halachic statement as you are making here.
Another issue is that we don’t know the reasoning behind the psak. You are assuming a few things. For one thing, you are assuming that everyone who is reading this thread already knows what was reported in the news.
You are also assuming that the basis of the psak was that they will be in a pikuach nefesh situation on the way home. That may be how it was reported in the news, but: a) not everyone reads the news. b) The fact that it was reported in the news that way does NOT mean it was accurate. For one thing, you can’t believe everything that is said in the news. For another thing, there may be many factors here that were not things that the Kushners could repeat to the public (meaning situational factors that could be a reason to be more lenient).
In addition to the situational factors, there may be many halachic factors that you are not aware of.
If in fact your intention is simply to make sure that people realize that according to halacha one is not allowed to put himself in a postion of pikuach nefesh and then be mechalel Shabbos, then you should simply state that if the heter was based on …. and that is not a valid heter according to halacha. Don’t assume that: 1) everyone knows that that is what the heter was based on or: 2) that it is necessarily true.
I think that one should make sure that it is not said as a personal condemnation of those involved. One should add that they should be judged favorably that they have no way of knowing that this is incorrect since it’s what they were told. Also, perhaps one could look at the positive side that they asked the sheilah in the first place. Additionally, I think that perhaps one should be aware of and make clear that there may be other unknown factors.
I hope you didn’t swallow 3 ounces – the amount necessary for a bracha achrona!
And btw, Joseph is right – you don’t need a bracha achrona.
LF – just for the record, I knew you were joking (which should be clear from my posts) – that’s why I didn’t understand why Mammele was so sure you were not.
Mw13: “And BTW, isn’t saying that somebody said LH also LH?”
No, I don’t think so. Not if you’re talking to the same people who just heard the LH. Adraba, I think it’s a Mitzvah. They already know what the person said- now they have to know that it’s LH.
DY: “That was a very poor way of defending your opinion that it is lashon hora.”
I had already tried the straightforward cerebral approach (which is my derech in general) and you didn’t respond, so I decided to try copy someone else’s more emotional tactic and see if it worked better. I have noticed in general that most people seem more likely to respond to emotional arguments than to intellectual arguments.
Since I can’t come up with those types of arguments, I decided to copy someone else’s and see if it worked better and if you were more likely to respond. And apparently, I was right since you did respond and you hadn’t responded to my previous post.
“The point was simply that it’s Loshon Hora.”
“Then you seemed to have missed the point of what you copied from Imamother. That post was saying that the intention of those objecting to what they did was to gossip.”
I understood the point of what I copied from Imamother. There was a reason why I answered the way I did, and I was planning to follow up with more clarification.
My point was as follows: The quote from Imamother was not meant as proof that you were speaking LH.
I just want to clarify something before I go on. The term LH can be used in two ways – either to refer to speech that is forbidden or to any derogatory speech even when it fulfills the toeles conditions and is permitted. (In “A lesson a day” they explain that the second definition is not technically accurate, but it is used for lack of a better term, although the word “l’toeles is tacked on).
In this case, what was being said was clearly LH according to the broader meaning of the term (while this is not the accurate definition of the term and it is NOT the way I used it previously, for clarity’s sake, I am using the term that way right now). The question is whether or not it is l’toeles. In order for LH to be l’toeles, there are many conditions that must be fulfilled, it is very difficult to fulfill them, and it is very easy to convince oneself that they are being fulfilled, and one needs to ask a sheilah, especially if the LH is taking place in such a public forum. I pointed this out to you previously, and you did not respond.
Obviously, if you are speaking LH (in the broader sense of the term), you think that your intentions are l’sheim Shamayim, since I don’t think you are the type who would deliberately speak LH (in the narrower sense of the word). I know it is something you are usually very careful about, and you seem like the Yarei Shamayim type. And I’m sure that your intentions were 95% l’sheim Shamayim, but if you were nichshal, I think that means that your intentions were not 100% l’sheim Shamayim, even though I am sure that you thought that they were.
And that is how I understood the quote from ImaMother, and that is how I meant it. I think the poster realized that a lot of people don’t listen if you just say, “it’s LH” but if you present it in the type of way Imamother did, people are more likely to listen. And this is something I have noticed in general – that that type of tactic tends to be more effective, although it is something I personally find hard to do.
If I understand correctly, you thought that I was starting out assuming your intentions were to gossip and that was my proof that you were speaking LH (in the narrow sense) It was actually the other way around – I was assuming that the statements were LH (in the narrow sense), and that therefore, your intentions must not be 100% (although they might be 99.99999% l’sheim Shamayim).
The basis for my assumption that what you were saying is LH is mainly the fact that it is clearly LH in the broad sense, and therefore a sheilah should be asked to find out if it is LH in the narrow sense. This is no less a sheilah than a sheilah in Hilchos Shabbos or anything else. It is a very serious matter, and one that really requires a Psak Halacha. In addition, I really didn’t see the conditions of toeles being fulfilled here.
Since you don’t seem to want to ask the sheilah, I will bli neder, try to do so on your behalf, but I will have to wait till 5:00 or 5:30 my time when the hotline is open. I was actually planning to go to sleep tonight, but this is important, so I will try to stay up, b”n.
LB, you will find people in all circles (even Litvish ones, and maybe even in some MO ones) who will take on high authority. But you have to be careful and use your seichel. Not everyone who takes on high authority should be.
One should be wary of anyone who claims that they can tell you for certain what you should be doing if you didn’t even ask them and they are not a well-known Gadol Hador (unless we are talking about a straightforward halachic issue). I’m saying this from experience, as well as a sense I’ve picked up from your posts that you may be too trusting (not that you have to assume that I know for certain what you should be doing either :)).
“Themes tend to be more expensive.”
It depends who’s doing the theme and why. In my circles, if someone does a theme (which is not particularly common to begin with), they are either trying to save money or be cute or both.
LB: “LU: I’m more concerned that he or someone else will know that I was talking about him. Maybe he posts or reads in the CR, or someone around here does.
This website has been around nearly 10 years, so I’ve heard from the anniversary post. Also, this thread could be here for a while. What if someone reads it and finds out in the future? It could hurt someone’s feelings.”
I’m impressed. I wouldn’t have thought of all that.
NCB – the second point would only follow from the first if:
a) the first point is in fact correct, and
b) the reason why the first is correct is also true of the second.
Before you can assume that it’s okay to say that an Orthodox Jew violated Shabbos, you would have to explain why you think it’s okay to say that a Reform Jew violated Shabbos.
LB- chickens don’t become eggs.
“Yes, I edited.”
good thing I didn’t respond to that part. Maybe I have Ruach Hakodesh and realized you were editing it as I was typing.
I’m still waiting for you to answer my question, Mammale. As I said, I really am dumb.
“Fine, so what pearls of of wisdom are you gleaning from Imamother?”
I wasn’t gleaning pearls of wisdom from Imamother. That’s also missing the point.
The point was simply that it’s Loshon Hora. Period. I just thought the way it was expressed might help people to realize that.
That is so weird – DY, did you edit your post while I was copying and pasting? I had thought your post said “my motivation” and I was even going to comment “how do you know I was talking about you?” but decided not to.
Then after I wrote my post, I saw that you had in fact written “my (or anyone else’s) motivation”, so I thought that I was tired and hadn’t read it carefully the first time. But then I saw that when I copy and pasted, it came out as “my motivation”!!! And that has nothing to do with how carefully I read.
“It’s the frum version of celebrity gossip magazines. Some women need an outlet… and by posing it as concern for Judaism, they (think they) don’t have to worry about lashon hara.” (quote from ImaMother in a thread on the same topic)
“I’m not sure how you know what my motivation is here.”
You’re missing the point.
LB – first of all, I didn’t mean that you should tell me the answers to the questions. These were questions for you to ask yourself. However,I’m not sure if it would be LH since I don’t think I would ever find out who you are talking about.
“I said that this was very different from what I grasped from Chassidus, where listening to the rabbi was a huge thing.”
I think there are two issues here:
1. There are different levels of “Rabbi”. An LOR is not a Gadol hador. There is one Rebbe per type of Chassidus and they consider him to be a Gadol Hador who has Ruach Hakodesh and capabilities beyond that of a regular Rav. Therefore, they consider him to be capable of telling his followers what to do, which is something that an LOR generally is not capable of doing.
I think #1 is really the main issue, but, additionally:
2. Chassidim and Litvaks do have somewhat of a different approach as a general rule although there are exceptions.
In any case, the way you are presenting what your Rav said, it sounds very reasonable and “al pi Torah”. You ask a sheilah when there is a halachic issue involved, but your Rav doesn’t have to make all your personal decisions for you, and it probably is a good idea for you to make decisions on your own, although getting aitzah is always a good idea especially since there can be aspects of things that you hadn’t thought of or halachic issues that you weren’t aware of.
From what you have quoted of this Rav, he sounds like a very intelligent person. If it weren’t for your second sentence, I would think he sounded great. But your second sentence (However I can tell you that you would tell me to go elsewhere) makes me a bit nervous…
“I’m sure it would have been very awkward for them not to attend, but that’s it.”
It might have been a lot more than awkward. We don’t know how Trump would have reacted. Ivanka seems to have a very good relationship with him, but that might be because she makes sure to do what he wants. Maybe that’s where the pikuach nefesh issue came in.
We also don’t know what the repercussions would have been for Israel and the Yidden. The Rav issuing the Psak probably took all this into account. There are also probably many factors involved that we are unawared of both in terms of the situation and in terms of the halachos involved. I don’t think that anyone here is qualified to posken on the situation.
“It’s the frum version of celebrity gossip magazines. Some women need an outlet… and by posing it as concern for Judaism, they (think they) don’t have to worry about lashon hara.” (quote from ImaMother in a thread on the same topic)
LB – I wrote my last post before seeing your last post. That does make things better.
But what I wrote still stands. Are there other things that bother you about the shul? Can you find a shul that it is clearly acceptable?
I would also suggest approaching the Rabbi politely and asking him about the parts of the Chumash that bothered you. When you hear how he responds, you will have a better idea of what his approach is. He might tell you that he wasn’t aware of those references and he is shocked by it. He might tell you that he is aware that those Chumashim are problematic but he inherited the Shul and it wasn’t something he was able to change since there were more important changes to make. Or he might laugh off the problem.
Whichever response you get, it should tell you what you want to know about the Rabbi and about the shul.
I might be wrong, but I think that Hertz was the accepted text used as Geordie said, but I also think it’s possible that it might have been problematic. But I’m really not sure, and I don’t think this is the best place to find out. I think you should try to find out but not here.
In any case,the main issue here is not the Hertz Chumash but the Shul itself. Was there anything else that seemed off to you? Do you know how this shul is viewed by others? How did you end up there?
Maybe you want to start off trying out a mainstream shul that you know is okay? I’m just concerned because you don’t really have enough of a background to be able to tell if a shul is really okay or not. That’s why it might be best for you to try a shul that you know is acceptable (if it exists where you live).
decent mechitza, nice warm friendly Congregants, approachable and authentic Rav and/or Rebbetzin, seriously Frum but also open-minded.
Those are the things that come to mind off-hand.
I’m not 100% sure, but I think I remember that when I was young there were shuls that used Hertz. I think that just might have been the Chumash that shuls used. There probably was nothing else that had an english translation, and maybe people were vaguely aware that it was problematic (I remember being vaguely aware of that even though I was a little kid), but that just was the Chumash that was used in shuls and no one thought too much about it.
I think that in the olden days in the US (meaning up to app. the 1980’s), a lot of things were accepted that aren’t accepted now and no one thought that much about them. The Orthodox world back then was very different than it is now.
So my guess is just that this shul is a very old shul and probably out-of-town, and they are still using old Sefarim. It doesn’t mean they approve of everything in the Chumash- they just might not have thought about it that much or they don’t have money to buy new ones.
I never heard of this before. I do know (and as I mentioned to you before) that MO contains an extremely broad range, and the most left side of MO is really OO even when they don’t use that term.
I wonder if it’s possible that the shul doesn’t realize what’s in the haftorah book. It could be that they don’t approve of everything in the Haftorah book; they just never paid that much attention to it. Or maybe in the context, the example you gave is not as bad as it sounds? Or maybe it is very problematic and you shouldn’t be davening in this shul? Those are the 3 possibilities I can think of.
LB – actually, my point was that you can get away with giving something small, cheap, and nebby if it fits some kind of theme, like in RY’s example above where all they gave was hard candies. It would be much harder to just give someone hard candies for mishloach manos if it didn’t fit a theme.
I think the ideal is to give mishloach manos to a lot of people but to try not to spend too much money on each one. If you do something cute, it’s easier to get away with small and cheap.
The point of mishloach manos is to increase rayus (friendship). It shouldn’t be the size or quality of the gift but the thought behind it.
Avi: “Lilmod, it is prohibited as LH to go straight to a public outcry. First you have to speak to the individual privately. In this case the Committee to Find Blemishes in Others (to use Rav Aviner’s term) is second-guessing the Secret Service, who know their business (and anyone with even a modicum of intelligence who saw the videos of what went on in the streets knows that they were right) and the rav who paskened.”
Why is this comment being directed to me? I am one of the ones who keep saying it’s LH.
Maybe some people want to get fancy themes. Or maybe you can get away with spending less money if you make a theme.
DY, how do you know how old the CR is?
CTlawyer- I got that, I was just wondering where the idea of respecting a president came from. Is that a halachic inyan?
numbers
mailman
LB – missed that – thanks for pointing it out. That’s one of the drawbacks of this type of game.
“How come this topic isn’t lashon harah? It’s all speculation and none of your business”
DY: “When Shabbos is publicly desecrated, I think it is a mitzvah to voice one’s opposition.”
That’s not something that you can posken on your own. Ask a reliable Poseik if: 1. there is definite chilul Shabbos here. 2. It’s a Mitvah to be posting in the CR about it.
CT Lawyer: “I shall respect President Trump because he has been sworn into an official government position. I have and will give no respect for his 3rd wife. She occupies no official government position.”
You have a right to choose whom you respect or not, but I’m just curious: Why should the respect you have for someone depend on his government position? Shouldn’t it have to do with whether or not the person deserves respect? And based on your above reasoning, Trump is no more deserving of respect than his wife.
ZD -“I was answering MW’s direct question about if someone should listen to Rav Schter over a random CR poster , not about OO in general.”
ZD: I was responding to the statement of yours below. I had said that the problem with OO is that they don’t follow Daas Torah. You claimed that neither does Rav Shachter. I am trying to say that my impression is that R’ Shachter does hold of Daas Torah. I guess your second to last post was on a tangental point raised by MW. But either way, my point still remains. When it comes to these types of issues, I am fairly certain that R’ Shachter would hold of Daas Torah, and that is what makes him different from OO, and that is what the conversation had been about (at some point).
LU: “LB- that is one of the problems with the movement -that he is not following Daas Torah and simply deciding things on his own. That is one of the ways that you can determine if a Rav is reliable or not.”
ZD: “I do not belive that either Rav Schecter or Rav Lichtenstein ZTL belived in Daas Torah either, and they are certainly gedolim (Or was in Rav Lictensteins case)”
whoops – that was supposed to say, “it’s very possible”.
ZD- that makes a ton of sense. There are certain questions I would never ask in person. I have looked at the questions of Rav Leff’s site, and there are many questions there that I am sure the askers would not have dared to ask in person.
I was very happy because there were things there that are important for me to know and I never would have thought of asking.
ZD – Basically the first but even more. We are not just talking about personal halachic issues – We are talking about halachic issues that involve changes in communal religious practice that the Gedolim say are wrong.
lesschumras – + 1 million
LB – np, just want to make sure you realize that the source I brought (well known and accepted sefer written by a well-known and accepted Rav) is more authoritative than the source you brought (random on-line source as far as I know).
It could be that “Halacha for today” is very reliable and that he is quoting from reliable Sefarim, but I just want to make sure you are aware that you can’t accept everything you read online, and it’s good to at least check who they are quoting or find out if they are considered reliable and in case to realize that they are probably not as authoritative as (most) actual Sefarim and are not a real “source”.
cracker
amnesia
“if someone publicly violates Halacha, knowingly or unknowingly, shouldn’t there be some public outcry to set things straight so that everyone knows it’s not allowed?”
MW13: “I don’t think anybody here considers Ivanka Trump the arbitrator of what is or is not Halachicly permissible. So even if she did rely on an eyebrow-raising heter, I’m not convinced that it’s necessary to publicly denounce her actions.”
+1.
“Even if we do disagree, it doesn’t reflect on Jared and Ivanka, it reflects on the Rabbi who gave the psak! If they had decided for themselves, I can see where they’d be wrong, but they asked the question. Isn’t that what they’re supposed to do?”
DY: “You are responsible for choosing to whom you ask your shailas.”
True, but many people don’t know better. Someone who had a different chinuch than you and grew up with certain Rabbis/types of Rabbis has no way of knowing that his Rabbi is not reliable. (I’m not saying that the Rabbi in question is not reliable. I don’t know enough to know one way or another. I am simply being melamed zchus on the Kushners for their choice of Rabbi.)
ZD: “No Posek has come out and said Ivanka wasnt jewish and that the conversion wasnt valid. Rav Shecter was on the Beis Din who converted her and the Chief Rabbinate of Israel has also said the conversion was valid.”
Chizuk1: “LU, saying “possibly” to Ivanka’s judaism is itself Lashon Hara”
I didn’t mean to imply that there is any question about the validity of her conversion, and I apologize if my words were taken the way.
I personally do not have any (or hardly any) information to be able to know if her conversion was or was not kosher and therefore, I didn’t want to state flat-out that she is Jewish as though it’s a definite fact when I had no idea if it was or not.
All I meant by the word “possibly” is that to me it’s a possibility since I know nothing about it one way or the other, so I didn’t want to say something false and imply that I know that she is definitely Jewish when I don’t in fact know.
I hadn’t seen it as a LH issue, and I actually thought that I was being dan l’kaf zchus since some of the posters seemed to think that she had done something against halacha which would certainly be fine if she’s not Jewish anyhow. I also didn’t want to make any false accusations against any posters who may have been guilty of speaking LH about her by saying that she is definitely Jewish when I don’t know that definitively.
But I appreciate your letting me know that you think there may a LH issue. You could be right.
I didn’t know that it was so clear-cut that her conversion is kosher and that everyone accepts it. If that is so, then I retroactively retract the words “possibly” from my above post.
ZD: “Giggling and Laughing can be done deliberately. People can do silly things. And there is definitely more room to say that laughing in public is more untznit than ankle boots”
In that case, the same rule would apply. It certainly seems likely that deliberately laughing in front of your principal after she specifically made a rule against it could possibly constitute “zilzul morim”. I would think that a girl who did that should have it in mind when she says “al cheit…b’zilzul horim u’morim”.
Interesting maaseh that is connected to this topic:
When R’ Shniur Kotler zatzal came to the US, one of the first things he did was to find his former Melamed and to ask mechila for the fact that when he was five years old he misbehaved and taunted his Melamed by saying “my Totty is a bigger Talmid Chacham than you are.”
Of course the melamed had not been particularly offended by being told that R’ Aharon Kotler was a bigger Talmid Chacham than he was, but apparently, R’ Shneur felt it necessary to apologize. (heard from the Melamed’s daughter).
Avi K- it’s very impossible.
I was surprised though because it’s not the answer that anyone else (or at least any non-Gadol) would have given to the particular questions being asked. That’s why I thought that it was it was probably coming from a combination of a general shita and knowing what I personally needed to hear.