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baisyaakovliberal – that’s not the point. The point was that someone said that even if it were an aveirah, he would do it anyhow.
LB – uh… it’s nice that you want to be “dan l’kaf zchus” but that’s not what he wrote. Being dan l’kaf zchus does not mean that one is supposed to think someone didn’t write what they wrote.
ZD – you are missing Yekke’s point. You are right – any real Rav will not allow people to be molested, and in the above example will tell you that you should say something.
But that is not what you had written. You had written that even if the halacha were that it is assur to say anything, you would break the halacha.
Iacisrmma +1
Joseph, thank you for explaining. That was one point (the main one). The other is that I said “might be”.
Regarding the quote from Golfer, it’s a question. You are allowed to ask questions in our religion.
Iacisrmma – if the war weren’t still raging, she would never have started that thread asking about ankle high shoes and specifically wanting to know if there were any halachic issues involved, and she would never have started this thread asking for advice on how to get through school, and she would never have started a thread asking if there are any halachic problems with her remaining friends with the her neighbor with whom she has been friends with her whole life.
That one was particularly impressive, especially considering the fact that is having such a hard time socially, and even thinking of giving up this friendship must have been very difficult for her. We are clearly talking about a real bas aliyah here – a girl who despite a lot of challenges, is trying really hard to grow and not to do anything against halacha.
She was honest enough to admit that it is hard for her not to break rules. It is great that she can admit her weaknesses. She should be commended for it and not criticized. It is great that she knows what her motivations and challenges are.
The reason she had mentioned that in the first place was because she was defending her school. Someone had criticized the school for making these rules that girls will break, so she defended the school by saying that she is the only one who has a hard time following the rules. It is very commendable that she was able to acknowledge that instead of blaming the school.
Moderators – If ZD’s post was removed, then I wonder if the post commenting on it should be removed? I thought the comment was referring to the post that is there so I was confused.
ZD – thank you for clarifying.
The book, “My uncle the Netziv” was supposedly put in Cherem. I’m not sure what that means though or who put it in cherem. That was just what I remember hearing when it first came out in approximately 1988.
It’s a translation of a Sefer by the Torah Temima, so it can’t really be problematic. I don’t know why it was put in cherem.
“Iacisrmma told us how to pronounce iacisrmma’s username.”
how is it pronounced? Warning – i’m not promising anything in return.
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Flowers – no one said that you are not allowed to daven to have a daughter.
It does say it is verified, btw.
Wow! I just checked it out for the first time. In just one day, they raised more than enough!
Whether it’s legit or not, that is a major tribute to Am Yisrael!
ZD – even if they only did it once and “only” saved one Jewish life, it was worth it.
or maybe it’s more correct and that’s why they do it.
I recall a story in “My uncle, the Netziv” about how someone (maybe the Netziv?) corrected someone (probably the Torah Temima) for the way he addressed a letter. Even though it was not technically correct, it was clear what he meant and it would have gotten there anyways, but the Netziv (if that’s who it was) felt that it is important to do things correctly.
Waiting now for Joseph to respond that it was put in “cheirem”. My response to that is that I don’t think it’s relevant since I don’t think that story is the reason it was put in cheirem.
Joseph, maybe he means they were backwards because they took longer to realize that nowadays school is necessary for girls.
The answer is that the other places may have needed it sooner (because they were more exposed to the modern culture) and that is why they had it sooner.
On the same topic, sometimes people like to criticize more insulated Frum communities for being slower to take on modern solutions to problems. They forget that those same communities were also slower to have those problems (precisely because of that same insulation).
It is Time – I am not trying to imply that that was what you were doing here.
Joseph – true, but from what I heard it still might be a problem to daven that a specific child be a girl, so one should ask a sheilah before davening.
“I actually was replying to those who said for her to “Grow UP” or called her out for wanting to be rebellious.”
I’m so sorry; I thought you were responding to me. In that case, I agree 100%! Shkoyach for sticking up for her!
JA – I just spoke to someone from Regesh and it looks like progress is being made, B”EH. Will be in touch when I have more info, b”n.
ZD – in addition to everything else, I suspect that JA is not in one of the more typical schools in Lakewood. There is a range of schools in Lakewood, and I think she may be in one of the ones whose raison d’etre IS to be more stringent than the others.
I think a parent who was sending her kids to the most stringent BY in Yerushalayim once told me that the school explained why they have to be so strict. Since they are considered to be the strictest school, if they loosen their standards (and allow the girls to just follow halacha), the other schools will become even looser (below halacha).
You don’t have to agree with this approach. But then don’t send there. That is why there is a variety of schools – because there are a variety of girls with different needs.
In an out-of-town community with one community school, it is very different. Since everyone has to go to the same school, the school has to be more flexible.
Iacisrmma, that’s great that you did that. I know others who do as well. But many don’t. Apparently, JA’s parents didn’t allow her to go to a different school than her sisters.
Golfer – I heard (but I don’t have a source) that one is supposed to or at least can daven for at least one girl in order to be able to be mekayim the Mitzvah of pru u’rvu, but they should not daven for a specific child to be a girl (I guess this meant before 40 days, or even before conception – don’t daven that the NEXT child should be a girl.)
It’s interesting though – I know a family who only had one girl near the top of the family followed by many boys, and the mother was chalishing for another girl (which she finally has as her last child, ba”h). I wonder if she was allowed to daven to have another girl since she already had one.
I have heard that there is an opinion that you need 2 girls and 2 boys to be mekayim pru u’rvu, so maybe that would make it muttar.
Also, maybe the reason why it’s different when you are not davening about a specific child is that then by davening for a girl, you are not asking for a girl baby INSTEAD of a bad baby. Who said that you would be zoche to another baby at all? So it’s not instead of anything – it’s in addition. So maybe you would be allowed to do so in that case even if you were already mekayim pru u’rvu.
Onetime, thank you so much for answering my question and explaining how it can happen that someone forgets to light candles!
Iacisrmma, I am sure you mean well, but you don’t realize how harmful your words can potentially be to JA.
You are right that this is not the best place to ask for advice, but apparently, it is her best or only option right now. Kol hakavod that she is seeking advice. The best thing that we can do for her is to offer her sympathy.
ZD, I agree with everything you are saying. But if it’s meant to be a response/argument to my posts, nothing you wrote contradicts or is a response to my points.
okay, thanks. From an old thread, it sounded like there once were email addresses to contact the moderators at, so that’s why I asked.
I do appreciate the way you are very good at responding to posts directed to you or to moderators in general.
Personally, I wish there were a better system to discuss things with moderators, because this system is not so good for certain types of discussions. Also, I don’t know which moderators are on when.
If someone sends a comment to the email that LB posted, who does it go to? Editor? Also, is there any way to send an anonymous comment?
sounds interesting. My mother keeps taking my magazines out of the bathroom, so I should probably listen to this.
I didn’t agree with everything he said either, but I thought there were some good points.
“No actually my school doesn’t have a social worker that i know of!”
Chaval, I thought that most schools have nowadays. Have you tried asking your principal if she knows how you can get a mentor or if the school does have a social worker that you don’t know about or if she can refer you to a social worker who doesn’t davka work in your school?
JA- bad idea. Just stick it out till seminary and then you can come to EY and learn all day in your seminary of choice.
Mod 100 – if we want to email you, how do we do that? What about Editor? Is there a separate editor for CR than main site?
I post less frequently than you and my posts show up in my profile 🙂
JA – I’m still trying to find out about mentoring for you. I called my friend again and she said that she knows a girl (or knows of a girl) who got mentoring through Regesh. I tried to call Regesh myself tonight to find out if they do mentoring for girls, but I just got a machine and I can’t really leave a message since I’m in EY. I will try to call again tomorrow earlier in the day so hopefully I will get a person whom I can ask.
She also gave me another contact to call who might know something.
I just wanted to let you know that I am working on it, and will b”n try to keep you updated.
One interesting piece of info I found out tonight was that apparently BY has every 10th grader speak to a social worker. I don’t know what school you are in, and I know you are in 11th grade, not 10th, but does your school do that for any of the grades? Does your school have a social worker? Have you tried speaking to her? Maybe she knows where you can find a mentor.
MW13 – +1.
Why do both Joseph and DY have no posts on their profile page?
Iacisrmma – you’re not being fair. You are being unnecessarily harsh and no, JA is not manipulating anyone. She has been extremely open about what she does or does not do throughout her posts on the CR. There is no stira between her posts. If you think so, it may be because you don’t understand teenage girls. You don’t have to understand teenage girls, but please show some sensitivity. Thank you. (I apologize if this post is too harsh).
LB – Where does it say anything about “40 days before conception”?
racism
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on a funny note – I just asked my very-Yeshivish friend in Lakewood if she knows what ankle high shoes are. She told me that her 9 year old wears them. I laughed and said, “well, I guess she’s rebellious then.” She was like, “chas v’shalom!”
So you might be right, ZD, in theory, about the rule being extreme. But l’maaseh, I still stand by what I said previously.
Some girls’ schools have school on Sunday. I had school on sunday from fifth grade on.
I think it is goyish and poor chinuch to have off on Sunday. Someone once tried arguing with me that a girls’ job is to be home helping her mother, not sitting in school learning.
Two problems with that argument:
1. Then why are we sending them to school 5 days a week? Obviously, we do think they should be in school. And don’t say it’s to keep them off the streets. That is a pathetic way to look at girls’ purpose in life. She’s doing what she is doing all day just to keep her off the street even though it has no purpose? If that is what their mechanchim and parents think, what kind of message are you giving over? That their life has no purpose or meaning and the only thing that matters is that they stay off the streets!!!
2. If the point were that they should be home helping their mothers, they would have off on Friday and not on Sunday.
And yes, they should have off on Friday as well as from Rosh Chodesh Nissan until the end of Pesach.
“Not when you live OOT. Very often there is only one school, or you MUST send your children away and they have to dorm or live with relatives.”
True, but JA lives in Lakewood so that’s what she was talking about.
OOT, the difference between boys and girls would be that boys can dorm and go somewhere else for Yeshiva. Technically, girls can board, but not all parents would let, not all girls would want to, and it might not be an option for everyone. It is far less common for girls to board than it is for boys to dorm.
Swatthatfly & ZD – I think you misunderstood JA’s question. It’s not about the difference b/w boys’ and girls’ schools.
It’s about the difference in the way that schools are chosen for each. With girls it generally goes by family. The general rule usually is that you have to go wherever your older sisters went, and you are not necessarily given a choice. By boys, you are not expected to go where your older brothers went.
Each time a boy in a particular family gets to Eighth grade, it is a given that choosing a Yeshiva for him is a new decision. With the girls in the family, the decision is made once – when the oldest girl is in Eighth grade, she and/or her family and the high school decide where she and all her younger sisters are going to go.
I have a friend who has 10 girls, ba”h. When her oldest daughter applied to high school, the school knew that when they decided to accept her, they were deciding to accept all 10 girls, and when she chose a school, she knew she was choosing for her entire family.
ZD – I understand what you are saying and it can be true in some cases, but even if it is, that’s something to tell the principal if she asks for advice. I don’t think it’s helpful to tell the girl that you think the school shouldn’t be making these rules. It will just encourage her to think badly of her school which will not help her to be able to deal with her school. Right now she is in the school and she has to make peace with it (at least until and if she is able to switch).
I also don’t think that it’s relevant here, since she said that most of the girls are fine with the rules.
It’s possible that this is the wrong school for JA, but that is not the school’s fault. And I’m not totally convinced that that is the issue either.
I do think it’s possible that switching schools would help, but I also think it’s possible that it would make things worse.
I definitely think that mentoring is needed here, and we need to find a way to get mentoring.
I am still trying to see if I can find out anything about that.
JA – it doesn’t have to be that way even though it often is.
I think it has to do with the fact that people look for different things in boys’ schools than they do with girls’ schools. When it comes to boys’ schools, people are looking at the learning styles which is an individual matter. When it comes to girls’ schools, it’s about the hashkafa and type of family.
I’m not saying it’s right or wrong – just explaining why it happens. But you are right that there is something unfair about it.
Even if it does make sense most of the time, if it doesn’t make sense in a particular case, that girl should be allowed to go to a different school than her sisters. And there are families that will send different kids to different schools.
I’m so sorry, JA, I had no idea. I’m surprised they couldn’t help you. Sorry for misleading you. I’ll get to work on trying to find something, b”n.
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LB – I just reread your title. I don’t get it. You are not in the womb before conception.
“It’s best to daven for a boy, as that’s preferable.”
But only up to 40 days. After that you are not allowed to. But you can start even before you are married if you want.
“although I would wonder about songs praising Yoshke – could songs dedicated to a”z be a problem even if
they’re not part of its official worship?”
I can’t imagine it’s not a problem!
“If it has pritzus, it’s also a problem. Or nibbul peh.”
“I’d forgotten about that. You wouldn’t be allowed to
listen to that even in a non-musical context, though.”
True.
“(Also, by “nibbul peh” you presumably mean foul language.”
I’m not sure what you mean by foul language. I don’t know the source, but I was always told (or thought or assumed) that nibul peh refers to what we always called “curse words” or 4-letter words. But only the ones that actually are bad words and have bad meanings.
I think that it doesn’t apply to those words that Frum people generally avoid (and as kids we always considered to be curse words) but aren’t technically bad words, like the ones beginning with a “d” and an “h”. Not necessarily recommending their usage, but I think they aren’t technically assur.
What do you want to discuss, LB? If you want to daven for a boy, you can only do so starting from now until 40 days after conception. After that you can only daven that the baby be healthy, happy, Torahdik, etc (basically everything but the gender).
In terms of beshert, you can daven for everything but a specific person. You can’t daven to marry a specific person, but you can daven that your zivug have all the qualities that you want him to have (there’s a beautiful tefila from the Shelah, btw.). And your zivug can be changed like Leah’s was. As you become better (or daven harder, like in Leah’s case), you can be zoche to a better zivug.