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JA – let me know if you are able to ask your mechaneches to call Chasy Silverstein to arrange mentoring for you. If not, I will have to try to see if I can find something else.
“LU, becasue there is only one valid opinion on the matter. That one opinion just happens to be shared by virtually every pediatrician, GP, and vaccine researcher on the planet.”
It could be. I acknowledge my ignorance on the topic (yes, LF, I have never had a problem acknowledging my ignorance in the many areas in which I am ignorant). I was just wondering why someone would be so sure that there might not be another valid opinion.
Of cource, if someone has done some research on the matter (I don’t mean scientific research – just a reasonable amount of reading and/or speaking to experts), then it is possible to know that there is no other valid opinion. Maybe that was the case here – I was just wondering.
It does happen that people make assumptions about things. In this case, there is another point of view, but it is possible that they have absolutely no valid arguments on their side. I don’t know – I never looked into it, so I was wondering if those who assume that is the case have in fact looked into it at all. That’s all.
lesschumras – that sounds like my kind of fast 🙂
LB – sorry, I didn’t realize you were referring to the comment about text speak. I thought you meant something else. But in any case, I do agree with Iacisrmma’s response in defense of ZD’s comment. Although I hear your point as well, and it is nice of you to be so sensitive.
LB – you are not supposed to do things while you are davening (the regular tefilos) or making brachos.
But you can daven (your own tefilos or maybe Tehillim) while you are doing most things (there are some exceptions like while you are cleaning the bathroom)
To be dan l’kaf zchus, I guess they felt that it is the same thing l’maaseh. Sometimes when you give too many details about something, people miss the point. L’maaseh, he was being held hostage. Presumably the murder was self-defense (or defense of others) so l’maaseh, it’s really the same, but if you tell people he’s being held for murder, people will start getting suspicious.
Also, he might not want people to know about it.
I just reread Mrs. Plony’s post and realized that her case was different than mine. It doesn’t sound like the guy was necessarily being rude – maybe he really felt that she needs the money more than him if she is only giving a quarter.
DY – either way, the point is that apparently I needed the quarter more than him because I was happy to get a quarter back – or would have been if it had happened to me.
I actually had a simliar maaseh at the Kosel years ago with agurot (I don’t remember how much, and it would have been worth much more back then anyhow). In that case, she actually threw it back at me which was pretty upsetting. So I told myself what I told Mrs. Plony.
Avi K. – When someone becomes a doctor,etc, he is not creating the Pikuach nefesh situation – the pikuach nefesh situation is already there.
DY +1
The OP clearly stated:
“and of course in the above case it would be muttar to report. But that is besides the point.”
So it is motzi shem ra to imply that he said that molesters don’t have to be reported or that that was the issue at hand.
The molesting issue is being used as a strawman to detract from the real issue being disscussed here. This is a tactic that has been used in the CR before. (I actually learned that word from the CR).
ZD – the comment was not about a specific issue – it was about halacha in general. Molesting was one of SEVERAL examples you made to make a point about hilchos LH IN GENERAL.The discussion was actually about speaking LH online about someone who may have been mechalel Shabbos.
Please note the following:
1. The discussion was about halachos loshon hora in general.
2. Molesting was one of several examples given.
3. The discussion had not been about a known molester. You stuck in those words afterwards.
JA – did you try asking your mechaneches about mentoring? Did you ask her if she speak to the person I told you about?
JA – For 9th and 10 th grades, I was in a school that was completely wrong for me. My family had moved a few days before I started high school and I wasn’t familiar with the schools in the new community, and my mother also kind of pushed me to go to a particular school which turned out to be totally not my type.
I realized from the beginning that it was the wrong place for me, so I asked my mother if I could switch and she gave me a reason why it wasn’t possible. I was a good kid, so I didn’t say anything else for 2 years.
The summer after 10th grade I worked in a camp whose raison d’etre was that the kids and counselors were from all different schools. Except that all different schools didn’t include the school I was in, but it did include the school I wanted to go to. Spending the summer with all these girls who were in the school I wanted to be in, and feeling bad about the fact that I was the only one from my school made me really upset about the whole situation.
At the end of the summer, we got something in the mail from school about the new school year, and I just started crying. My mother was like, “What’s wrong?” So I said, “I want to switch to ____.” So she was like, fine, no problem. And I switched.
That is when I learned that crying is the way to get what you want, but it usually doesn’t occur to me to cry in front of other people. It was a bit frustrating to think that I spent 2 years being miserable when that was all it took!
I am very glad I switched. I didn’t like the second school either but for different reasons than the reasons that I didn’t like the first school. Even though I didn’t like the second school either, I am still glad I switched because the first school was really not the right place for me (too modern). I once told someone that I’m glad I switched because now I can say that I went to Bais Yaakov. That might sound superficial but it’s really not – it’s just being realistic.
Socially it was hard since most of the kids had been together since kindergarten. Also, even though they were more similar to me in certain ways, they were different in others. But I had a very hard time socially in the first school as well, albeit for different reasons. And since I didn’t like either school anyhow, I’m glad I only had to deal with each one for two years.
Bottom line: I am glad I switched. But at the same time, I don’t recommend it for everyone. You have to think about the reasons why you want to switch and if things will really be better in the second place.
LB – ZD was the one sticking up for JA.
Catch Yourself: “Lilmod Ulilameid has done a very good job of making the point.”
For the sake of accuracy and yashrus, I just want to point out that this line was not said in reference to my 2 posts that immediately preceded it, as they had not been moderated yet at the time this was posted, so Catch Yourself had not yet read them.
FYHS – maybe first discuss it with a Rav. Ask if it’s really a problem and ask what to do.
It’s interesting – we read To kill a mockingbird in high school. I don’t remember if it was in Bais Yaakov or not (I was in 2 different high schools). I don’t remember there being pritzus, but maybe I wasn’t so sensitive then or maybe I forgot. Also, there could be things that wouldn’t be problematic for girls but would be for boys.
I davka remember that as being one of the few books we read that I actually liked. Chaval that it’s problematic.
Mrs. Plony – my reaction would have been, “I guess he doesn’t need the money as badly as I do. I would have been happy to get a quarter.”
Do you actually know people who fast?
JA – I was concerned about that, but I figured I would try. You had mentioned talking to your principal, so I thought it could be an option. Is there anyone else in school you could speak to? A teacher or someone?
Catch Yourself +1 million!!! I wrote several responses which have not yet been approved. Thanks for writing a response that expressed the point clearly yet was approved right away!
ZD: “The OP in this post is a perfect example of this thinking. That someone would really belive its a bigger chilul hashem to turn over a molestor than allow one to infest our community”
What the op said is that one has to keep halacha.
Why are you equating keeping halacha with not turning over molesters??!!
Do you seriously believe that the Torah says not to turn over molesters?
LB – why are you so sure that there are no other opinions on this? (I don’t know if there are or not. I am just wondering why you are so sure that there is only one valid point of view on the matter.)
LB – why are you writing +1 to someone for accusing someone of something he didn’t do?
FuturePotus – why is that a chiddush?
mw13 – of course kibud av v’eim doesn’t permit chillul Shabbos. I’m sure that both Iacisrmma and his/her Rav are very well aware of that. I understood the point to be that there may be many factors that we are unaware of that were “mitztareif” in the psak given, if in fact there was a psak.
DaMoshe – Why did you feel a need to make that statement? Why would you even think that there might be anyone in the world who would say that?!!!
One other point I want to make clear is that the only reason I said anything about asking a sheilah in the first place was not because I had a “hava amina” that the halacha might be that you don’t have to protect people from molesters.
The reason for asking a sheilah was to determine whether or not doing x in situation y is really protecting people from molesters.
Many times people make incorrect assumptions about these things. You gave an example that seems to be pretty clear-cut and is less likely to need a sheilah. But not every case is so clear-cut. And even in the case you gave, the question is still – “what is the best thing to say to who?”
I actually do not understand why you think that telling your relatives about it is the right approach. Why wouldn’t you tell the Rav of the shul and/or the Rav of the community and/or the police so that they can get him out of the shul and community and preferably in jail??!!
When my friend saw someone in her shul acting inappropriately with a kid, she told someone official. I forgot who she told – maybe it was the Rav of the Shul or someone else official – it’s a completely Frum city, so all the official people are Frum. They blacklisted him from the Shul and basically kicked him out of town, and his wife divorced him (my friend felt bad about that. I don’t know why).
That is how you handle things like that, and that is much more effective than telling an individual who goes to the shul and can’t do anything about it or than posting rumors online.
Iacisrmma- the possuk you brought does not in any way refute JA’s point. Actually, it might support it.
There are many conditions in order for it to be permissible to give Tochacha. If those conditions are not fulfilled, it is an AVEIRAH. One condition is that (in most cases), it is an aveirah to give tochacha if the person won’t listen. That is precisely the type of situation that JA is talking about.
Mod 100, are you around? If so, I have a question for you. Thanks!
Mod 100 said not. Maybe they used to.
ZD – the OP said nothing of the sort!!!! You are totally misconstruing his words!!! There is nothing whatsoever in anything he said or that anyone else here said that implies in any way that one should not protect the community from molestors.
Some of the posters here (mainly DY and LB and to a lesser extent, myself) have been trying very hard to be dan l’kaf zchus that you didn’t mean what you said, but so far you have given us no reason to believe that.
How can you misconstrue the OP’s words like that? He didn’t say it’s a chilul Hashem to not turn over a molester!!! His point had nothing to do with molesters and he certainly never said that one should not turn them over!
What he said is that its a chilul Hashem for the CR to post your post saying that people shouldn’t follow halacha! DY bent over backwards to try to say that maybe you didn’t really mean that and to give you an opportunity to take it back. I did as well.
You are confusing two issues here: 1. Should one follow halacha even when he doesn’t agree with it or understand it?
2. Do you think it’s possible that halacha would say not to protect people from molesters?
I think that most of us who are posting here think that the answer to #1 is clearly yes and the answer to #2 is clearly no.
From what you wrote, it sounds like you think the answer to #1 is no and the answer to #2 is yes. If that is what you mean, then that is a chilul Hashem (both answers).
Is that what you really think or were you not expressing yourself clearly, as DY and LB and I would like to believe?
I just want to make something clear: saying that one should follow halacha does not in way, shape, or form mean that one should not protect oneself from molesters. There is no contradiction between following halacha and protecting oneself from molesters. If someone thinks there is (as was implied from your words, although perhaps that is not what you mean), that is a chilul Hashem!
I had school on Friday and Sunday and I am not a liberal.
I just noticed that you wrote “assuming I had proof”. I don’t think that was there when you first gave the example. That was one of the reasons I thought a sheilah was necessary.
“LU, ZD got hurt, and started that thread. It could have been something else, though, maybe a leg or hip; I don’t know, and ZD may not want to say for privacy reasons.”
I missed that thread. Refuah Shelaimah!
DY: “I think you are still saying it wrong. Don’t say, “I don’t care about this aveirah”, say, “You’re wrong, it’s not an aveirah, it’s a mitzvah”.
DY: “You still need to ask a shailah how to tell people.”
Right. Both of those things were my point. Also, you have to make sure that you know for sure the person is a molester. Did you see it yourself or are you relying on hearsay? Even if you didn’t see it yourself, you would probably be allowed to say something, but it depends how reliable the source is. And how you have to phrase it might be different in that case.
The whole idea of having a zivug is kabbalistic and we don’t understand what it means and we shouldn’t be basing our lives on it. From what I’ve been taught, it doesn’t mean what everyone thinks it means.
What we should realize is that everything that happens is bashert. If you marry someone, you were obviously meant to marry them, whether they are technically your “zivug” or not. Like everything else that happens in this world.
DY – I was also wondering about that (the developmental disabilities). Maybe the answer is that when Mashiach comes they will be cured and be able to get married, so they have to have a potential zivug since Moshiach can come any day.
JA: “I find it even worse wen principals get involved”
Was this in response to my saying that the mentoring needs to go through your principal? Or was this in response to something else?
ZD – you are saying two completely different things in the same breath.
First you are saying:
“I would say I dont care about this averiah”
Then you are saying:
“And if you want to say Such and Such a Rav, says its an Averiah to tell people, I would tell you, that rav is wrong and you need to get another Rabbi.”
First you are saying that it’s an aveirah but you don’t care. Then you are saying that it can’t be an aveirah and the Rav you asked must have been mistaken, so you will ask someone else.
Those are two completely different things. The first thing is a serious problem. The second thing is fine (or it can be depending on several factors). I have done the second thing myself at least twice in my life, albeit only in certain specific circumstances.
Do you see the difference?
What’s wrong with your back?
JA – I found someone in Lakewood who arranges mentors for high school girls. I spoke to her just now. She said that it has to go through either your parents or your principal. Are you comfortable speaking to either of them and asking them to call her to arrange mentoring for you?
I don’t want to post her information online, so I will send it separately to the moderators and ask them to pass it on to you.
Let me know what happens. Hatzlacha!
DY – I don’t think so. You may be partially right but not completely. I am saying this based on what I remember of the context of that post. I think it was in response to my writing that one must ask a sheilah before posting LH online about people who reportedly did some kind of aveirah.
There are many halachos involved, and it is not muttar to publicly shmear everyone whom you think may have done an aveirah.
Aside from the context, the bigger problem is what he wrote: he clearly wrote that he thinks that even if it’s an aveirah, he thinks one should do it.
Where you are right is that probably where he was coming from was: it is obvious to him that in the specific scenario he described there is no sheilah since it is obviously permissible to say something!! And if the Rav asked says it’s not, either he misunderstood the question or he is mistaken, and of course you should ask someone else. And it’s possible that it’s not necessary to ask in the first place.
But that is not because there is anything more important than halacha. It is because that is the halacha in that particular case!!!
But l’maaseh, that is not how he phrased it. Perhaps, he didn’t mean it that way, but then he should clarify because the way it’s phrased is problematic.
Also, in the context, it was problematic in any case. In this example, it may be obvious that it’s muttar, but there are many, many cases where it is not, and that is why a sheilah must be asked. Especially since the context was about shmearing people online not about a private conversation with individuals, which is completely different.
LB – it is POSSIBLE that it is a problem to daven that that child be a girl. I am not sure, so ask a sheilah.
It is POSSIBLE that it is permissible to daven that you have a girl (even while you are expecting) as long as you don’t daven about that specific baby. Again, ask a sheilah.
It is also possible that it depends on whether or not you were already mekayem p’ru u’rvu (meaning that you already had one boy and one girl or 2 boys and 2 girls). Again, I don’t know, so ask a sheilah.
Flowers – you wrote that I wrote that you are not allowed to daven to have a daughter. That is not true. As you yourself pointed out, what I wrote was: “Joseph – true, but from what I heard it still might be a problem to daven that a specific child be a girl, so one should ask a sheilah before davening.” So please don’t accuse me of saying things that I didn’t.