Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Mentsch: Isn’t all this makeup, clothes etc. really a females choice because they feel that it is the only way to date? It’s not technically a necessary cost it’s a cost they choose, in order to give themselves an advantage
It’s not a choice – it’s what they are told they have to do. Please keep in mind that I am not talking about anything extreme. But it does cost money to look decent, and it is necessary for dating. A guy doesn’t have to be superficial in order to want to marry a girl who’s attractive. If he only wants Miss America, that’s a problem, or if he thinks that looks are the most important or only important thing, that’s a problem. But that’s not what I’m talking about.
Mentsch – no, I don’t. It has to do with age. When I was younger, there were no phone calls, but once you reach a certain age, that’s how it works in both MO and Yeshivish circles. I was actually taken by surprise by it and didn’t like it until I got even older and found out that I have now reached the stage that I am allowed to choose to have a phone call instead of a date and not in addition to a date.
Older-single dating is very different than younger-single dating, and the rules keep changing the older you get.
Gaon – +100!
batHH – there is nothing wrong with caring about what others think. That is the way Hashem made us, and it is normal and probably a good thing to some extent. I think that it is healthy to realize that others’ opinions matter to you, and I did not mean to mean to imply otherwise, and I’m really sorry if I made it sound like it’s bad that you care what other people think.
The whole idea of dressing a certain way (no matter how someone dresses) is based on caring what others think, since the way you dress is the way you present yourself to the world.
My point was that if you are comfortable with your manner of dress and the message you are projecting is the one you want to project, and dressing otherwise would not be YOU and would be projecting yourself as something that you are not and you are just feeling peer pressure to change, then you should stay the way you are because I think you will be happier that way.
It’s hard to explain the difference (especially since I don’t know if there always is a clear-cut difference), but I hope you understand what I mean.
RY – My latest idea is to start with a phone call or two before deciding if it’s kidai to meet. Amongst other benefits, no one has to pay. Skype is a bad idea, because then the girl still has to spend the money, time, and energy to look nice.
Granted, it’s only when you’re older that you can get away with this. When you’re younger, you can’t get away with it, and it’s probably a bad idea anyhow, because you may get the wrong impression of the person if you don’t meet him in person.
LF’S Mom – +1 and G’mar Chasima Tova!
Joseph – note the word “legitimately” in Sam’s post. That is the key issue here.
Note: I know nothing about the Eruv issue specifically and I’m not getting involved. But according to what Sam wrote, whether or not Rav Moshe would hold that you can give the guy a package would depend on whether or not R’ Moshe considered those opinions to be legitimate.
Wow – I knew you had some married kids, so I didn’t realize that you also have toddlers. For some reason, I thought all your kids were married. I guess that’s not the case, unless you believe in marrying them off really young…
“Why does going on a date require a hairdo, makeup, manicure and special jewelry?”
Some people don’t know how to cut their own nails. And some people don’t know how to do their own hair. And some people can’t afford to buy makeup or jewelry, so they only do so before a date.
RY: “I believe men also tend to wear nice clothes on dates, so that leaves you with the makeup, women. And you don’t have to buy expensive makeup. You can also buy cheap makeup (which is also expensive).”
First of all, the guys can wear the same clothes on each date, since there is no difference between one white shirt and another. Second of all, they can wear the same clothes on the date that they wear every day of the week for the same reason. On the other hand, the clothing that I wear every day of the week is not date-suitable.
Second of all, she is still left with the hair and the nails and the stockings.
RY – the only thing I see a price for is the lipstick – did I miss something?
I don’t wear black lipstick, so I wouldn’t know. And I can’t remember how much my lipstick cost.
I actually stopped wearing lipstick this week in order to avoid Chillul Shabbos on Yom Kippur, since I have heard that lipstick causes chapped lips, and chapped lips causes Chillul Shabbos. I’m considering stopping to wear lipstick altogether besides for dates, so that would create another date expense, since I’ll have to buy it special for dates.
LF +1!
A guy doesn’t need a car to date – I’ve gone out with guys who didn’t have a car. And no one needs a watch – use your cell phone.
Joseph – It’s not the JAPs who spend so much on dates. They spend that amount all the time. It’s the poor girls who normally don’t have money for clothes and makeup etc. and suddenly have to buy these things for a date.
I don’t understand – if a seat belongs to someone, shouldn’t it be labeled?
And if it’s not, how can you expect someone to know?
And if he doesn’t know and is sitting there, isn’t it assur to interrupt him in the middle of davening no matter how politely it’s done?
“I was once in a college class (R”L)”
Must have been your not-so-Frum- cousin’s influence. 🙂 But what was Joseph doing there???!!! Whatever….
I know you asked for guys’ opinions, but here’s a girl’s opinion:
I can’t tell for sure without seeing you, but from your description, it sounds fine to me. While it’s true that sometimes people have to be careful about going to extremes, it doesn’t sound like that’s what’s going on here.
Being extreme in terms of dress would involve being so concerned about tznius that you don’t look nice. Or it could involve dressing in a way that you are not comfortable with and don’t feel is “you”.
I don’t have the impression that either of those things are going on here. It sounds to me like you are very put-together – maybe even more than most people – and like you are dressing in a way that you are comfortable with.
It also doesn’t sound like you are doing anything extreme. The things you are doing may be somewhat unusual in your community but most of them are pretty standard in most Chareidi communities that I have been in. Most Chareidi women I know wear stockings and don’t wear nail polish, tons of jewelry, or high heels. The amount of makeup varies – I find that there is somewhat of a range of what’s considered acceptable.
I understand that it is awkward to stick out, but I’m not sure what’s wrong with looking too chareidi. In any case, it doesn’t sound to me like you are doing anything unhealthy or extreme, if you are comfortable with the way you dress.
The question you should be asking yourself is: Are you asking these questions because YOU are uncomfortable with the way you dress or because you are worried about what others think?
Because the girl has to pay:
1. To get her hair done
2. for makeup
3. to get her nails done
4. clothes, shoes, stockings (I know boys need clothes and shoes too, but it’s probably less important, and they can get away with wearing the same outfit on every date).
5. jewelry
6. possibly a taxi to get all those things done if she’s running late and doesn’t drive.
7. for the chasuna
8. possibly supporting the guy in Kollel once she’s married.Lightbrite – that is so nice of you to think of me! Thanks so much!
By the way, I just read an article about a certain well-known Gadol or Rav (it might have been Rav Shimshon Pincus) written by a relative of his. One of the stories was about how he gave a relative of his a ride to a chalav-stam ice cream place, even though he himself wouldn’t eat there.
To answer your question, the general rule in such matters is that if you consider the Rabbanim who permit the thing in question to be reliable Rabbanim and the opinion to be a valid opinion, then I think it’s okay (for example, my friends don’t mind if I open their soda bottles on Shabbos, especially if I’m doing it for myself.)
You should probably ask a sheilah though because it may depend on various factors.But if you don’t think those Rabbanim are reliable Rabbanim or if you hold that something is absolutely assur, then it would be a different story.
When it comes to Chalav Yisrael, a factor to consider may be if you are makpid on it because you are holding by a shita that says that chalav stam is absolutely assur vs. if you are following a shita that chalav stam is muttar but a kula.
My impression is that Chabad may hold that it’s absolutely assur, so if you consider yourself to be Chabad, you should probably ask your Rav, because that may make a difference.
DY – no, it’s not.
Maybe not all the boys need tutors, but the Rebbeim don’t want those that do to feel bad.
Or maybe, the fathers are really meant to learn with their sons, but they are not all capable of doing so.
Gamanit – good points, but I’m not sure I agree with your first point. I don’t think that’s necessarily the point of homework. I think the point is that the kids need to review outside of the classroom.
Your point about one-on-one learning is a good one, and I imagine that might be what’s going on here. I was assuming that we were talking about an older kid.
“Modesty – perhaps the girls who are dressed modestly could take credit for times of peace not those who aren’t being tznius.”
JJ – +1! That’s probably a more helpful way to look at it!
And the fact is that there are constantly tremendous nisim in E”Y. Bombs that don’t go off, and missiles that land in the wrong places….
Maybe it’s in the zchus of the girls who do dress tzniusly. And maybe that can be an incentive for someone to dress tzniusly (if it helps her – everyone is different.) She can think about how each extra inch might be saving one life.
re: Apushatayid’s post: There is a source somewhere about what we can learn from each animal. I don’t where the source is off-hand and I have no time to look for it right now, but I’m sure someone here knows.
(DY, are you around?)
I think it talks about learning tznius from the cat and industriousness from ants…
btw, even if you were to take the expression, “dressed to kill’ literally, it’s “dressed to kill” and not “dressing to kill”.
In other words, it doesn’t mean that the person is deliberately DRESSING to kill, but rather that the way she is DRESSED kills whether it was intentional or not.
Modesty – I hope that I wasn’t too harsh in any of my posts. I was trying to get the point across without being harsh, but if I didn’t succeed, I’m sorry and I hope you are moichel.
Kesiva v’chasima Tova!
“Wow amazing great books by Gila manolson started reading over Shabbos outside inside. I, will get, to magic touch when I’m done with inside outside
I see how she shows that being tznius can be fun and there is what to appreciate
Climbing the ladder and hopefully I will get there”Amazing!!! I’m so happy to hear that. You WILL get there b’ezras Hashem! Just remember that it is a process, and don’t get discouraged by the inevitable setbacks as one attempts to grow in any area.
Growth is a process, and falling is part of the process. The main thing is not to get discourage when you fall, but to get right back on the horse. Discouragement comes from the yetzer hara.
There are two parts to a person – his neshama and his guf. The person’s essence is his Neshama. His guf isn’t him; it’s just a tool that Hashem gave him to enable him to do things.
If people are giving you attention because of your guf, that has nothing to do with you. They are ignoring you and focusing on your guf instead. That means they don’t really care about YOU.
If people really appreciated you, it would be “you” that they give attention to – your personality and middos and thoughts, NOT your guf.
If you are trying to get attention by dressing untziusly, it means you are not connected to the “Real You” – the things that make you unique and special.
You should try to work on figuring out what your “maalos” and strengths and talents are, and find ways to develop them and to “get attention” for those things. Even then, it shouldn’t be “attention” you are trying to get as much as “appreciation”.
I’m sure you have many wonderful qualities – you sound like a sweet, sincere person. Maybe you should work on appreciating your many fine qualities, and then you won’t have a need to dress untzniusly.
It also sounds like you may need to change your friends and the crowds you hang out in. Find people who appreciate others for their inner qualities – the real person.
Modesty – I haven’t read all your posts, but based on the ones I’ve read, I think you really need to read Gila Manolson’s books and listen to Rav Orlosfsky’s cd.
However, I’m not sure if that will be enough.
I am a bit concerned about the way you seem to enjoy dressing untziusly and the attention you get from it. What bothers me is the fact that you assume that this is “normal” and that everyone feels that way.
There actually are many people who don’t feel that way. In fact, I think that most people I know would find that kind of attention demeaning. It may be normal to struggle with tznius to some extent, but it seems to me that if someone has such a pull to dress untzniusly and has such a strong need for that kind of attention, it might be kidai for them to look into themselves and try to figure out why they have this need and if there is another way they could fulfill it.
“How is that? when I dress very not tznius i don’t feel being controled by others its just a lot of fun especially when you get a lot of attention and feel belonging to the club unfortunately I call that freedom”
If you feel that you need to dress untzniusly in order to get attention from others, then you are letting them control you.
Boruch Hashem!!!
Joseph a public school teacher?? That doesn’t sound too likely to me…
don’t you have to go to college for that?
I assumed he worked in some kind of business.
I also never thought he sounded particularly chassidish. And I remember that post in which he told SYAG that he’s not.
Also, in the secular world, less people are getting married officially, and you can’t get divorced if you’re not married.
And I would imagine that the ones who don’t get married are more likely to be the ones who would have gotten divorced.
In a world in which marriage is not the norm, those who actually do choose to get married are a rarity and much more likely to be the type to stay married.
If in fact it’s true that the number of divorces is going down in the secular world and going up in the Frum world, it’s probably because the number of divorces in the Secular world is extremely high and the number of divorces in the Frum world is relatively low. It’s much easier for someone whose grade average is 50 to improve than it is for someone whose grade average is 99. In fact, it’s very likely that the one with a 50 average will improve and the one with a 99 average will go down.
It depends how hard they are pulling and if it actually hurts.
I would think that one of the issues here might be that different people have different ideas of what is considered “too sick to be around other kids”.
If the parents of the sick kid think he’s too sick to go to the babysitter, then I would think that they should be the ones who don’t get the babysitter. But if they thought it made sense to send him and the other parents didn’t, then it’s more complicated and I think you need to ask a sheilah. Maybe you should do that in any case.
I agree with DY that it’s best to work these things out beforehand, but that doesn’t help you now. Also, it’s hard to work it out beforehand since different people have different ideas of what is considered “too sick to be around other kids”.
Gavriel – thanks for the explanation of why the school/s are doing this. This time of year, it’s important to be melamed zchus on others, and the best way to do that is if you know the reason why something is done.
And your explanation makes sense. Thank you!
LB – lol. I like that.
LF – +1
Randomex – I didn’t get either of your last 2 posts. What do they mean, and what do they have to do with the topic?
You might find Rav Orlofsky’s tape on platonic relationships useful as well. It’s not about the aspect of tznius you are talking about, but it’s all connected, and I think it could help you to appreciate the concept of tznius and understand why it’s in your best interest to be tznius.
Random3x – thanks so much! I had wanted to point that out… I didn’t know the exact meaning, but I wanted to point out that: a)it’s an expression and not meant literally, and b) it wasn’t created by Frum people and isn’t necessarily meant the way people are understanding it.
ZD -that’s really interesting. It would never have occurred to me that it’s a problem.
I was thinking that maybe she found somewhere where there is power to use her computer. I’m sure there are some places around that have some power (or a generator).
Gadolhadorah – thanks for the explanation. Regarding the food issue, I think the main issue might be the fact that the stores are out of food because so many people stocked up before the hurricane. That is what I heard from a friend who has a relative in Hurricane territiory.
And I would guess that a lot of people had your idea, so tuna was probably one of the first items to go!
motchah – thanks for bringing a source!
I’m dying of curiosity.
“Outside, Inside” by Gila Manolson. I recommended it in the past to another poster who bought it on my recommendation. Based on things that you’ve written, I think it’s right up your alley!
You might also be interested in “The Magic Touch” by the same author. It’s about being shomer negiah, but she writes a lot about tznius in general.
Her books are not about the halachos – they are meant to develop a love for tznius.
Oish, LB! I feel so bad for you! My sympathies! I sent a post (that got deleted – don’t know if it was deliberate or a computer malfunction) on the other thread. I mentioned that I was happy for you that you still had power. How are you posting without power??
I know they do twin studies. My point was that I don’t know if such studies are completely fool-proof.
They do seem to indicate that nature plays a big role.I have seen things about how they often marry people with the same name or give their kids the same name. Which is rather interesting.
However, I am skeptical of studies. There may be a lot of bias involved. For example, maybe the people performing this study wanted to prove that being gay is genetic, so they found a way to do the study in such a way that it would “prove” what they wanted it to prove.
I do agree though that nature and nurture and bechira all play a major role.