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gavriel – I suspect you’re right. In any case, I think that this conversation has to come after other conversations, or it will sound condescending. (And it could be that was the Rav’s intention).
First he has to approach her and let her know that her dress bothers him (“I message” not “You message”). And he should make sure to point out why he thinks that it may not be appropriate, citing halachic sources. Then, if she is still having a hard time with it, maybe he can approach her again, and say, “I know this is hard for you, but I am very bothered by your dress. Would it make it easier for you if I bought you a diamond ring in exchange?”
WTP: My personal opinion is that when you have a guest, you should make sure to only have the hechsheirim that they use. Especially, if it’s known that most people in their circles don’t eat a particular hechsher.
In terms of what a guest should do, that is more complicated. I still haven’t quite figured out the answer to that myself, and as a frequent guest, it really matters.
Ubiquitin – I agree with almost everything you wrote (except for the fact that if Shimon insists on serving c”y, I don’t think Reuven should argue with him, although perhaps he can offer to provide the c”y).
When I was a kid, we had a frequent Shabbos guest who only ate Yashan (back in the days when that was practically unheard-of). So he used to bring his own challah, and it wasn’t a big deal. He never made us feel like we were less Frum than him because we weren’t makpid on Yashan.
What’s interesting is that many years later, I happened to ask him why he’s makpid on Yashan, and he responded, ”because chadash is an issur d’oraisa”. (Note: I was actually in the middle of eating non-Yashan when he said this!).
Which just makes it more impressive that he didn’t have a problem eating at our house and didn’t make a big deal about the fact that he was makpid on Yashan and we’re not.
RY – I’m trying to limit my usage.
”She wrote “than looking at someone”
”No she didn’t.”
You’re right – that was a mistake.
”She did, however, subsequently write,” If you believe that the women at your local gym are dressing especially provactively, than I agree with you 100 percent but a my gym, most of the women are wearing oversized sweats and loose baggy tops that do not challenge the yetzer hora.”
The original sentence is still a problem. (This sentence is also a problem, but that’s a separate issue).
allowing relatives in your home who are not dressed completely tzniusly.
RY – sorry, but I don’t own a men’s gym, nor do I have any plans of doing so at any point in either this life or any future lives.
ZD – I didn’t say that the street is necessarily untznius. My point was that even if the street is untznius, it’s not as bad as a gym. But if you’re right and it’s not untznius at all, that further proves my point.
Oh and by the way, I just passed two women wearing leggings outside.
Joseph – I understood that that was where this was coming from, but I still think it’s inappropriate and unhelpful.
Also, why do you write “him”? Granted, her name is Gadolhadorah which implies that he’s male, but I always thought she was a girl.“The first asifa at Citifield had minimal impact, aside from awareness.”
“My oven has minimal impact on my challah, aside from baking it”
+1
jdb – that example makes more sense to me than the OP’s scenario. In your situation, it makes sense to at least ask the sheilah, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there are Rabbanim who would allow it (depending on the specifics of the situation).
But in the OP’s case, I personally found it hard to even see where there is even a sheilah.
I had been thinking of pointing out that the only cases that I would think (IMHO) that it might make sense to even ask a sheilah are: 1. If you are visiting relatives, and/or 2. If you are visiting someone out-of-town where chalav yisrael is not available.
My impression is that in general, there are more likely to be leniencies when it comes to family than when it comes to good friends. Family relations can be much more sticky. I have heard of people being more “meikel” about tznius, for example, when it came to relatives who were visiting.
I just looked back at her sentence, and it is clear from the lashon that she meant it the way I understood it. She wrote “than looking at someone”, so she was saying that it’s okay to look.
“And I thought she meant that it’s okay to put yourself in that position because your health is more important – and an implication that there is nothing wrong with it because we have developed ourselves so efficiently that many of the halachos barely even apply to us anymore. r”l”
Precisely my point. Thank you, SYAG.
She was determining halacha based on her own feelings, so that’s why I would have expected you to say something, DY. And in this case, I would actually have agreed with you, because in this case, that is really what is happening.
ps: While it is theoretically possible that a specific person in a very specific circumstance MIGHT be given a heter (and I don’t even know if that is possible or not – I’m just saying MAYBE- like if someone is going to die if he doesn’t exercise, and there is no other option but a mixed gym, and he is blind so shmiras ha’ainayim doesn’t apply to him, MAYBE a Poseik would matir it for him), but the issue here, IMHO, is that she seemed to be making a very definite halachic statement based on an assumption.
“ZD – I’m not sure what your point is. Can you explain?”
“I think he was pointing out another way in which a gym is worse than the street.”
Oh. I thought he was arguing with me somehow, but I didn’t get how. But your explanation makes sense. Thanks.
Is that what you meant, ZD?
DY – I had missed that, but anyhow:
1. that would actually be worse, and
2. you know what she meant.What’s the point of that? You may as well just not have any chametz year round.
I just realized that my last sentence was phrased incorrectly. What I meant was: It doesn’t bother that what I’m doing was compared to eating apples from a toilet.
I see the problem with public libraries as being the “tumah” that one is inevitably exposed to in both sights and sounds. I think that one should always try to avoid being in places where they will see or hear things that are inappropriate. This can apply to any not-Frum location, whether it’s a clothing store or a pharmacy, or grocery store. That is why I think that all of those places should be avoided if/when possible.
Obviously, each person has to make his own decisions when it comes to these things, and there are many factors involved, including the person’s level of sensitivity, how bad the particular place is, the person’s needs, and the alternatives available. Each person has to think things through and make his own decision regarding his actions.
But regardless of my particular choices that are based on my thinking things through, I can still acknowledge the fact that there is a level of sensitivity at which one considers entering a place that has any inappropriate sights or sounds similar to eating an apple from a toilet bowl. I might not be at that level, or I may have a need that takes priority, but I can still acknowledge that the level of sensitivity exists, even if I’m either not holding by it or it’s impractical for me.
So the way I understand the quote, it is not being holier-than-thou and an attempt to stifle independent thought. And I think that anyone who is confident in his decision-making process need not look at it that way.
btw, this is being typed up in a public library. And yes, I thought about it first. And yes, I do try to avoid the library when I can. And it doesn’t bother me that I am doing something that was compared to eating apples from the toilet.
“Does it make any sense that our girls in school are taught at a young age to keep their hair shoulder length and in a pony tail for modesty (to follow the מגן אברהם) Yet when they become an אשת איש ALL boundaries disappear!’
Actually, that happens even before they are married – as soon as they finish school and are in shidduchim, they no longer have to wear their hair in a pony tail.
That’s because the reason for the pony tail is that it’s a school rule and not because everyone follows the Magen Avraham. They also stop wearing school uniforms at the same time, for the same reason.The school rule about pony tails is a relatively recent innovation altogether. And it bothers me when something becomes a style (or a school rule) and all of a sudden, people thinks it’s the halacha. The halacha doesn’t change because of the school rules.
Why did you wait so late to start???!!!! You should have started the day after Pesach ended!
DovidBT – true. For that matter, the only reason that I know that most men and boys where I live look down when they see a female approaching is because that’s what they do when I’m there, and I think I’m pretty tznius.
progeshmakeyidden – maybe that’s WHY I wanted the last cookie – I wanted to be able to make a bracha!
RY – like what? chocolate?
Joseph – I don’t think that was an appropriate (or fair) response.
It’s also irrelevant. You can comment on someone’s post even if it’s not surprising, and even when the person really isn’t Frum.
ZD – I’m not sure what your point is. Can you explain?
Mazel Tov! What are you now?
“Keeping yourself healthy is more important than possibly someone on the treadmill not being dressed tziniudik”
Surprised that DY (and anyone else for that matter) didn’t comment on this line.
“Exactly, apy.
She should always be baking more! 😉”
He should always be buying more.
LB – not in the air – on the floor or wall.
actually, I’m not sure if I ever caught a fly, but I probably have. I was thinking more of spiders and mice. I put one cup over it, and then slowly lift it while putting the other cup over the first cup.
I remember a funny incident from when I was in high school. I caught a mouse that way, and I wanted to take it out to the fields right away, but the secretary made me wait till after davening, so I left it on my desk (in the cups). Some of the girls in my class freaked out when they came into the room and saw it. It was really funny!
I don’t know why they were so freaked out – it was safely contained in the cups. And it’s not like it was a scary animal like a dog.
Meno -that’s creepy!
770: “Use a plastic cup”
That’s what I do. And I use two of them, not a cup and a paper.
I wouldn’t dream of using a regular cup – that’s creepy – kind of like Joseph’s toilet apples, but not as bad.If my only option was a drinking glass, I’d just kill the fly.
“I have a special folder on my desk that I use solely for killing flies.
Today I got one stuck in my keyboard.”
the fly or the folder?
If Shimon is on such a tight budget, he probably shouldn’t have guests so often, or the guests should be considerate enough to provide some of the food.
Most people I know are very careful about where they walk. Personally, I rarely see anyone dressed untzniusly on the street for that reason.
And most men and boys I know walk with their heads down, or at least they put them down when they see a female approaching.
Mrs. Plony – if you don’t think that there is any problem with libraries to start with, it probably won’t change your mind. But if you already realize that there are things in the library that are problematic but you feel that you need to use it, this might make you think twice about whether or not you really need to use it or need to use it as much.
Also, even if someone falls in the first category, if he is an open-minded person, he might stop and think, “Why is Rav Miller even thinking of comparing a library to a toilet? What is the similarity? Are there things in a library atmosphere that are problematic and might be better to avoid if possible?”
“Ice cream is never a shas hadchak.”
Chocolate is.
I would assume that most people who are makpid on chalav yisrael avoid eating milchiks at people’s houses who aren’t makpid on chalav yisrael. This shouldn’t be a big deal most of the time, especially since most of the time people eat at other people’s houses on Shabbos and Y”T when they aren’t serving milchiks.
In the above situation, either Shimon can buy c”y milk for Reuven, or Reuven can provide his own milk. Reuven and Shimon are clearly good friends if Reuven eats at Shimon’s house during the week so often, so it shouldn’t be a big deal for them to discuss it and work it out in one of the above two ways.
It is well-known that some people are makpid on c”y and some aren’t and there is no reason anyone should feel insulted if someone doesn’t drink their milk or buys his own, IMHO, as long as you don’t make a big speech about how Frum you are.
Shkoyach! I like the mashal. I would also add that if someone is really hungry, he might eat the apple. Same with the library. I think that answers some of the above objections. I’m sure there are people whose lives have been saved by eating apples from the toilet bowl.
If one Jew died from drug overdose, it’s a crisis. And there has definitely been way more than one, r”l.
LU: “I don’t see how you can know how small a problem is, even if you’ve been there 20 years.
Unless you personally know every single person in the place, how would it possible for you to know how many people are not on drugs?”FF: “Lu it’s very simple to know which guys in a community are on drugs !!!!!!!!!!”
5ish: “I can not believe I am writing this because it seems to be so obvious, but lack of evidence for something (especially your lack of anecdotal evidence) is not proof that something does not exist.”
Thank you 5ish! That was precisely my point. It is possible to know that something exists, but it is much more difficult (and often impossible) to know that it doesn’t exist. In this case, you would have to know every (or nearly every) person in the community in order to know that it’s NOT a problem.
I’ll vote for you… just tell me what you’re running for so I can register…. and make sure to be in right place at the right time….I always seem to miss elections due to not being in the right country at the right time or not getting around to registering, or not knowing who’s running, but if you’re running, I’ll try to make sure to be there!
מדבר שקר תרחק, never tell a lie…
It’s not illegal, but it may be assur…..
Does it say what you voted for? Maybe you voted for GO president..
Daas Yachid: “The best way to prevent divorce is to not get married.”
Precisely my thoughts as soon as I saw the OP.
I don’t see how you can know how small a problem is, even if you’ve been there 20 years.
Unless you personally know every single person in the place, how would it possible for you to know how many people are not on drugs?
sorry, I guess I missed that post.
Iacisrmma, I think this is similar to the way that girls used to keep their watches on Israeli time when they came back from seminary so that they could feel connected to EY.
And yeah, I think you may have to be from Venus to understand – my friend’s husband almost broke up with her when they were going out when he found out that her watch was still set to Israeli time two years later.
If there is one Jew on drugs in any community, it’s not overrated. Also, even if there are NO Jews on drugs in Baltimore, what difference does it make? It’s still a crisis, even if it’s only in one community.
“Joseph,
Telemarketers or scammers spoofed my wife’s number, and she got a call back from a stranger wondering why she had called them… But she never had.”That’s really interesting, because I recently called back a “missed call” from my phone, and reached an answering machine with a message saying that they hadn’t called me, and that a scammer had spoofed their number and they were getting hundreds of calls from people who thought they had called them.
I thought it was probably a lie, because it sounded so strange, but I guess it wasn’t.
The first time that I took a job as a telemarketer, I asked a sheilah and was told that it was muttar, and I’m almost 100% certain that it was not for a tzedaka organization. It was for a Frum organization, but it was a business, not a tzedaka.
The only time I had a yashrus issue with a telemarketing job was the one time I worked for a goyish place, and I felt like they were deliberately taking advantage of people, and possibly being dishonest as well, although it was hard to tell if there was any clear- cut dishonesty going on. That time, I asked a sheilah and was told to quit.