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BMYer – I wasn’t necessarily referring to a situation in which someone very b’dafka has specific boys and girls over in order for them to meet each other and they know it beforehand, and they feel like they are on a date. I know people who have a lot of singles over and don’t make a point of not having boys and girls at the same meals. So it’s not necessarily planned that those specific boys and girls are there together – they just happened to be the ones who called and asked to come that week.
Also, I’m myself on dates in any case, and I hope by my age, everyone is. My point was that you’re not in real-life situations on a date.
My comment was based on 2 maasim that happened to me. I’ll explain in another post.
I think he means – is it yichud for the second guy? I’m fairly certain that it’s not, but I don’t want to say 100% for sure.
LB – I’m sure it was a play on words – I just wasn’t sure if you got the other meaning of the word. Sorry for doubting you.
If they are men, they are allowed to wear loud colors.
LB – little tikes is a term for little kids. According to halacha, if there are kids in the room/house (I think you need one boy and one girl), then it might not be yichud. But they have to be a certain age. It is not the same age at which yichud would actually apply to them.
Wolf, I definitely both agree with you and sympathize with you! and I’m sure that Joseph does too.
It seems that my supposition was correct.
To be “dan l’kaf zchus” the school, they probably have a reason for the policy – maybe the things that were mentioned by other posters, that they have a lot of financial issues and need to make sure that people really need the discount.
It sounds like this whole topic is very complicated and it would be nice if someone could come up with a solution. But maybe it’s one of those issues that has no solution (other than davening of course).
“Ike is short for Isaac.:
Thank you. I hadn’t known that. I guess they are Jewish then – מיכאל and יצחק
Was my post deleted? If so, why?
Yes. Please try to keep your posts a more manageable length. Thank you.
WTP – when I have a chance, I’ll try to find out when my niece is off -she’s in a Dati Leumi Iriyah Gan. (although I would assume that what you saw on the Misrad HaChinuch website is correct)
Although if one of them is a man and the other is a woman, you have a problem. What kind of a name is Ike?
But then again, they hang out so much together, I assume they are married, so in that case, it’s fine anyhow.Even if they are men, as long as they are Frum and not “prutzim”, it ‘s fine. Two men and one woman is not yichud (as long as they are Frum and not “prutzim”.
That is what I remember learning years ago. I don’t have a source off-hand, but I can try to find one, if I have a chance. I think the source may actually be the Gemara you quoted. I remember learning that the Gemara is is not referring to someone who says Hallel every day, but rather to someone who says Hallel on a regular day (meaning a day that does not call for it). It wouldn’t make sense otherwise – if somone says Hallel every day of his life but one, this Gemara would not refer to him??!!
In any case, if I have a chance, I will try to locate sources.
Well now, I guess there is mussar on this thread.
lol, great minds think alike – I was also hoping for real mussar. Glad to hear I have company!
That being said, I don’t have a problem reading something mildly humorous, but then again, I’m a girl so I don’t have to worry about bitul Torah.
You’re Welcome 🙂
“I have an idea. Maybe they should make it so when you post a link it blocks the post ABOVE yours.”
That would solve the problem of posts going up in backwards order. But, if the posts are posted in the correct order and someone hadn’t yet read the post above yours and wants to read it, you still have a problem.Possible solutions:
1. Whenever you post a link, first repost the post above yours.
2. Post the blank post first and assume that it will go up first since it’s blank and doesn’t need too much moderation.I know that neither of these solutions would solve your problem Meno, but personally, I don’t think that’s such a bigger problem. The other problem is certainly bigger.
“entire post is visible to me.
I guess it depends on the browser, so two posts it is.”That’s interesting – I didn’t realize that different people can be seeing different things. I couldn’t understand why you didn’t realize that 2 posts were blocked.
We still are left with the problem that posts often go up in backwards order. I think this is more likely to happen when the second post is smaller and needs less moderation (which is usually the case with a blank post).
The only way to avoid that is to keep checking to see when your post went up, and as soon as it goes up, make sure to quickly post two blank posts. But then, you still have a problem because another poster might post meanwhile, so that won’t help.
“First of all, you didn’t post the whole Teshvuah,”
Health, you can see the whole Teshuva from the link – I just checked.“I wrote “usually”!”
You were responding to ZD who wrote that there are schools that are coed for financial reasons. I thought you were arguing with him, so I was giving an example of a case where he is right.
But I guess I’m not disagreeing with you if you wrote “usually”, and I’m sorry if I gave the impression that I was.In any case, it doesn’t contradict your original point about Frum schools being different since it started out coed, and has actually become less coed over the years instead of the other way around.
One of the maalos of meeting someone outside of regular dating is that you can see what someone is like in real life. This is particularly true of Shabbos meals. You can learn a lot about someone by seeing the kinds of conversations he has at the Shabbos Seudah. You can also see how he interacts with other people in real life.
That being said, there definitely are some chesronos to singles’ events (and particularly speed-dating). The biggest pitfall is probably the one that Friendinflatbush pointed out – that it can lead to the guys (in particular, but perhaps the girls too) being more focused on chitzonius and to comparing girls.
That is why I don’t think it should replace shidduchim but should only be used in addition to shidduchim for people who have already given shidduchim a fair shot. I don’t think it should be done too often, but if it’s done in moderation, I think it can be successful.
I think that this problem is much more likely to occur with speed-dating. With Shabbos meals, it is the least likely to be a problem. For one thing, you can just have one or two girls over at a time. For another, when you are interacting with someone at a Shabbos meal for 1-3 hours you are more likely to be focused on their conversations than on their appearance.
1. When I wrote about people meeting in ways other than shidduchim, I didn’t necessarily mean speed-dating. The other options are a) single’s events that don’t involve speed-dating, & b) people having single boys and girls over for the same Shabbos meals. Of the above options, speed-dating are my least favorite, and I think they are the least effective.
2. All three of these are way less draining than regular dating for the following reasons:
a) They are social events, and therefore they are fun. I enjoy meeting people and seeing friends.
It can be very hard for me to find time for dating. I know it’s very important, but so is supporting myself so I can have a roof over my head and food to eat. On the other hand, no matter how pressurred I am, I have to find some time for fun and socializing anyhow because I wouldn’t be able to function otherwise.b) With regular dating, you have to make a definite commitment that you will be at a certain place at a certain time. With most singles’ event, you don’t have to make a definite commitment. Even if you do, you can usually back at the last minute or at least come late.
c) Even if you have to put the same money, time, and effort into it, you get to meet many people for the same amount of money, time, and effort.
d) If it’s a Shabbos meal, it doesn’t take any time or effort, since that’s something you would be doing anyhow. And there is certainly nothing draining about it – it just makes for a more interesting Shabbos meal with more interesting conversations.“On the city bus today I saw a woman holding a baby EITHER WITHOUT A WIG, OR WITH A VERY REALISTIC ONE.”
That was me. Sorry about that. You are not the first person to call me a goy because my hair is not covered. You may be the first person over 10 years old though. By the time most people reach the age of 11, they have figured out that not everyone in the world is married.
In one school I subbed in, the kids were really confused when they saw me davening Mincha. They couldn’t understand how a goy knew how to daven Mincha.
I wonder if I should start covering my hair in order to avoid maris ayin problems.
AVi – I was talking about Sunday of Lag Ba’Omer. It didn’t occur to me that you would think that I meant every Sunday.
The reason I asked was: if the schools are off on Monday instead of Sunday, then it sounds like WTP is right and that means they are “pushing off Lag ‘BaOmer. But if they are off both days, maybe they just think that people are tired from their Lag B’Omer celebrations and need the next day off.
1. (points #1 &2) “Please go back and read the original post, these girls have not been in school for weeks, not a few days”
sorry, my bad. But all it changes is that I would have written “a few weeks” instead of a few days (which I almost did. I actually wrote ” a few days” thinking that it might be a few weeks – a few weeks is also a few days). I think I agree with DY on this. Granted, I’m not sure what we mean by “a few weeks” but I was assuming something like 3 or 4 weeks and not 20 or 30.2. (point #3): My main point is that there are few people in this situation.
3. “#4 is solved with a doctor’s note,”. No, only if the kids are really sick. After my parents got divorced and my mother had to go to work and I had to be in charge of getting the kids to school, they often pretended they were sick so they wouldn’t have to go to school, because they knew I couldn’t force them to go. I think my sister even admitted years later that she was just pretended.
look – can’t you see now how two posts are blocked (actually one and a half, but that’s just because mine is long)?
And they did backwards order again, so it’s my post that is blocked even though it should have been yours 🙁I was responding to your third post. There was a question there that I saw for a second before it got blocked.
I think if the blocked post is the last post that was moderated, when you click on the time of the last post on the main page, you see if for a milli-second before it gets blocked.(afterwards when you wrote that nothing was blocked, I thought that maybe I was remembering wrong and I hadn’t seen anything. But I must have seen something, because I remember now that “apparently not” was in response to something. I think you wrote, “does that work?”. But I guess you didn’t realize it was blocked since I responded to it.).
and by the way, now it is completely blocked and I can’t even see if for a milli-second since it’s the last post.
I mean, “not the last post”
Now your blank post was moderated before the link, so it didn’t help. Also, the link covers two posts, and you only put one blank post.
I know that because I saw your post (the first one under the link) for a milli-second since it was the last post moderated. But it really is blocked.
The one under it (second one under the link) hasn’t been moderated yet, but it is also blocked.
DY – I see 3 posts in a row from you. The first is the one with the link, and the second TWO are blocked by the link. You don’t see that? The linked one is listed as: 7:34, and the blocked ones are: 7:34 and 7:35.
I think it’s a great idea! But I think we need two blank posts, and posters should write in the original post that the next two are blank, so the readers don’t get frustrated and think that there really are blocked posts.
Shkoyach!
“This reply was modified 29 minutes ago by DaasYochid. Reason: Typo”
when you edit your own post, you can give a reason?? How do you do that? That is cool! (and prevents unnecessary speculation).
Maybe there are also other factors involved in some cases. Even though it may seem like someone is earning a lot of money, there could be exorbitant expenses that they can’t discuss. For example, maybe someone in the family has serious psychological problems which require expensive treatment or someone may be in some kind of expensive rehab, etc.
And there is another really important point here. I think this may be the most important point of all. While it’s really nice that people are so concerned about Shmiras Shabbos, and of course Shabbos is very important, I think that if we all judged each other favorably and spoke positively about each other, that would do more to bring the Geulah. (and then everyone will be keeping Shabbos in any case).
What do you mean? You blocked two posts. Oh – was that your point? Did you mean “what if I put TWO blank posts instead?”
I thought your second one wasn’t blank (sometimes they show up for a second, and I thought that one did, and that it wasn’t blank).
And to give an example of something somewhat similiar: I once accidentally took the wrong bus on Erev Yomtov. Instead of ending up in Yerushalayim, I ended up in some random city that I’d never even heard of. The only way I had to get to Yerushalayim at that point was by taking a taxi.
I made a calculation and figured out that if the taxi speeded the whole way there and back, it was theoretically possible that he could make it back before shkiya. I asked someone who said that I was allowed to do so.
I think there was a very good chance that the taxi driver was mechalel Shabbos since he had no reason to speed back home (unless he was Shomer Shabbos which is possible, but it was more likely that he wasn’t), and I’m not even 100% sure he could have made it back with speeding. I was not comfortable with this and would not have done it if not for the fact that I really could not imagine spending YomTov in a random not-Frum city where I did not know anyone. And I was told it was okay. And the possibility existed that he was not mechalel Shabbos.
I have always felt bad about it, but I really couldn’t imagine doing things any different.
1. Who is “they”? Who said it’s the same people?
2. It’s not lol at “a very real part of their religious practices”. My understanding is that they have very strong minhagim about bonfires. And you are the one who is always so into keeping ones’ minhagim!
3. It doesn’t make them phonies at all. They want people to keep Shabbos. That doesn’t mean that they have to disrupt their minhagim for people to keep Shabbos. And in any case, these people aren’t keeping Shabbos anyhow. If they were, there wouldn’t be an issue.
I am not taking sides here. I am not qualified to. I just wish people could be “dan l’kaf zchus” and understand that there could be two sides to the issue (and that they are also not qualified to take sides).
Apparently not!
FuturePotus – no, I don’t. We’ve had this conversation before, on another thread. Posters were coming down very harshly on the OP for asking if something was a problem – something that others felt was ridiculous. She pointed out that to a becoming-baalas teshuva, everything sounds ridiculous. We are used to halacha (and minhag), so there are many things that sound totally normal to us that might sound crazy to someone who is not Frum. We don’t realize this either because we are so used to these halachos or because we understand the reasons behind them – and I’m not sure which it is.
If I hadn’t grown up Frum, I might think that it’s crazy that elbows have to be covered, or that many women won’t answer the door or go out on the mirpesset without putting socks on first, or that most Frum women won’t wear red (although they will wear maroon or bright yellow), or that I’ve been asked to put my hair in a ponytail when teaching in boys’ schools, etc.
So why shouldn’t LB think that this may be a problem as well?
CT – 1. you know about these stories because you are a lawyer. That doesn’t mean that they happen very often relative to the numbers of kids who are out of school for a few days.
2. I also wonder how long the kids were out of school in your examples. It may have been more than a few days.
3. For the few parents in those situations (those that are divorced, AND the other parent is trying to get custody, AND the other parent is the type to go to a goyish court AND there is a real concern that he will be able to bring the courtcase before the strike is over), they can find another school meanwhile.
4. If anyone is really in that situation, they could have the same problem if the kids were sick or pretending to be sick and/or refusing to go to school for a few days, which is not uncommon in a divorce situation.“Those Frum schools that do that because of the parent clientele. It’s not ideal. It’s usually Kiruv types of schools!”
not always: see:
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14679&st=&pgnum=258sometimes girls have boys’ names and vice versa. You can’t judge someone’s gender by their name (just look at the CR)
yes.
sorry – I spoke WAY too soon! It’s not working for me 🙁
I don’t remember
Apparently, it wasn’t so long-term. I am assuming that they were assuming (correctly so) that the problem would be resolved soon and therefore it wouldn’t be in their childrens’ best interests to try to find another school for them.
If it had lasted a really long time, I’m sure they would have tried to find another school. I’m also sure that it would have been really difficult or impossible to find places in other schools for all the girls (or at least it would have taken some time).
” Rambam said one should not be hitztarech al haBrios, and even Hillel HaZaken and the Chofetz Chaim in our times earned themselves a living.”
We don’t posken according to the Rambam; we posken according to what the Gedolim of our times (who know how to learn and apply the Rishonim) say. Rav Moshe Feinstein zatsal has a teshuva in which he speaks out very harshly against people who don’t go to Kollel because they don’t want to take money from the tzibur.
Do they have school on Sunday?
Mod 29 – I have seen what you are talking about happen with other threads, but I did think in this case that the OP was serious. Remember, she is in the process of figuring things out, so it was not a ridiculous question for her. Although perhaps it is a problem that others took the question seriously (not the questioner – the questioner should be taken seriously of course).