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my guess is that there may have been a typo there.
: )
That was precisely the point!
That is a good example, I think. Your earlier post is not moderated yet, so I can’t comment on it (and I realize this is probably a continuation).
I still think the only really good proof would be a source that explains the Gemara. The examples thus far seem to be more like supports than out and out proofs. If there was a reason to understand the Gemara the way that Joseph is, one could find a way that this doesn’t contradict the Gemara, such as by saying that dying al kiddush Hashem is a different category, like I did by the Y’hi Ratzon.
Meno, I think that was probably in response to Joseph’s comic comment. If he thinks she got this from reading too many comics, the implication is that he thinks it could never happen. If you think something can never happen, that is the same as saying that you think that Hashem would never Will it to happen.
Is that what you meant, LB?
LB – I have to give you the biggest thank you!!!!! You really helped me with a piece of advice you inadvertantly gave me in your op. One of the biggest problems in my life this year has been the fact that my mother expects me to get the cleaning done every week, but I can’t clean when she is around, and she is always around, so I haven’t been able to figure out when to do it.
She is usually out of the house for several hours on Sundays and Mondays but it never occurred to me that I could clean on a Sunday or on a Monday. I had this idea in my head that the house can’t be cleaned before Tuesday since I always think of cleaning as “cleaning for Shabbos”.
After I read your post, it occurred to me that there is no reason why I can’t clean on Sunday or Monday! For one thing, the house doesn’t get dirty that fast, and for another thing, my mother just needs to know that I cleaned the house at some point – I really don’t think she cares when.
So I spent today cleaning the house, and now I don’t have to worry about it for the rest of the week! Thank you so, so, so much for the idea!!!!! You don’t know how much you helped me!
LB -thanks!!! You are the best!!! I am so happy you are around to be supportive of me!!! I am curious as to which part you are referring to, but you don’t have to say if you don’t want to.
btw, when I mentioned that lately I don’t always say anything when I see someone being attacked, you were one of the examples I had in mind. I felt really bad about that and have been wanting to try to find the opportunity to say something to you, to apologize to you, and to let you know that you have my support even when I feel I can’t speak out.
I hate not saying anything in such cases, but I realized that I have to be realistic and know what I can and can’t handle. I also realized that sometimes you can accomplish more when you don’t say something every time.very. would never have guessed.
“You are confusing Joseph’s position for torah misinai.”
Not at all. I don’t see where you see that. I don’t even agree with his position. As I pointed out previously, I am just analyzing your proof against his position to see if it’s a good proof or not.
Regarding Joseph’s position, I don’t agree with his position and I do agree with yours. What I was arguing against was your argument against his position which I thought may have flaws.
Tachlis, the real issue here is what the Gemara does and doesn’t mean. And for that, someone needs to find a reliable source that explains it. I’m not sure where one would find it. But I think that is really the only good argument possible here (or it certainly would be the best one).
“There is no mitzva to defend Joseph’s wrong and misguided position (that he more than likely doesn’t actually believe)”
I wasn’t trying to defend his position. I was trying to do 2 things. As far as Joseph was concerned, I wasn’t defending his position but rather his person. It is one thing to attack someone’s position; it is another to attack the person and make negative assumptions about them. I try to always defend anyone who I think is being unfairly attacked in the Coffee Room. I will b”n defend you also if I see you being unfairly attacked as a person.
edited upon request, sorry
“whenever someone makes an incorrent assumption about someone.”
“I think several different mods on several different occasions have tried to correct this misperception of yours.”And in so doing, inadvertently proved me right!
“Several what?”
Several posters who mentioned that they “caught on to the truth” as you put it.
“To the extent that you are reinterpreting tefillos and even Joseph’s own position he said quote “We all should hope that we, l… should be killed al kiddush Hashem.”” This involves a misah meshunah. I dont understand why you change his position to know say ” that we should daven to die al kiddush Hashem” that is not what he said”
Ubiquitin, I don’t understand what you are trying to say. Joseph wrote that we should daven to be killed al kiddush Hashem. He did not write that we should daven to have a misah meshunah. Are you trying to say now that you think that dying al Kiddush Hashem has to be a misah meshuna? You wrote above that you didn’t think so.
“If you think that it’s possible to die al kiddush Hashem w/o a misah meshuna”
“that was DY”Yes, but you wrote that you agreed with him:
DY: “Dying al kiddush Hashem doesn’t require a nisayon or even a misah meshunah”
Ubiqiutin: “Of course not!” (post #1271240)
This means that you agree with DY that one can die al kiddush Hashem w/o a misah meshunah. At least that is how I understood it. Did you mean something else? Did you mean the opposite? Did you mean “of course it is not the way you are saying and it’s not true that dying al Kiddush Hashem doesn’t necessarily involve a misah meshuna”?
I see now how “of course not” can be taken either way. Which way did you mean it?
From the continuation of your that post, it sounds like you meant it the way I understood it.
After that, you wrote
” Joseph said “We all should hope that we, like Rabi Akiva wished for himself, when our time to leave this world arrives we should be killed al kiddush Hashem.”
This involves both a misa meshunah (scraping flesh with iron combs would widely be considered a misa meshuna by any definition I can think of) and a nisayon too”I understood that first you were telling DY that his point is correct and that one can die Al Kiddush Hashem w/o a misah meshuna. However, you still felt that your argument (about the fact that we daven not to have a misah meshuna) was still a good argument against Joseph because Joseph’s point was that we are specifically davening to have a misah meshuna. (so even though you think that DY is right and one can die al Kiddush Hasehem w/o a misah meshuna, you are still using this as an arugment against Joseph’s point that we are specifically davening to die al Kiddush Hashem WITH a misah meshuna even though the two don’t always have to go together).
If in fact, when you wrote “of course not”, you meant that you DISagree with DY and you think that dying al kiddush Hashem always involves misah meshuna, then what were you adding by quoting Joseph?
“There are many people here who are either very judgmental, not very bright, or have trouble reading,”
“Oh I couldn’t agree more!”Thanks for the confirmation! 🙂 I’m glad there is someone else here who realizes it.
“though aren’t we being judgemental by saying that?”
no, not if you understand what being judgmental means and doesn’t mean. I can’t explain right now, but I think you are bright enough to figure out why that’s not necessarily being judgmental and may actually be the opposite.
A mamin – I don’t think it was closed-mindedness in this case. I only skimmed through this thread, but my impression was that many of the posters had never heard of the minhag and didn’t know if there was a source for it.
“when so many ppl here are ignorant to any minhag they never heard of?”
Most people are ignorant of things that they never heard of. That doesn’t make them close-minded.
” I would say welcome to the CR, but it’s kinda like welcoming a customer welcoming a new sales rep to their own store.”
The reason I didn’t say “welcome to the CR” is that he/she might be actually have been here for a long time. Most of the moderators don’t seem to give their names/numbers.
Guess what? I just called a friend whom I haven’t spoken to in a while. It turns out that she is engaged, and guess how she met her chosson?! At a Shabbos seudah at someone’s house!!!
“It’s a bit hard to explain why in 8 years there has never been anyone able to “catch on” to the truth before now.”
There actually have been several.
Ubiquitin: “Joseph said “We all should hope that we, like Rabi Akiva wished for himself, when our time to leave this world arrives we should be killed al kiddush Hashem.””
Ubiquitin, Joseph didn’t say that we should daven to die the exact way that R’ Akiva did, only that we should daven to die al kiddush Hashem just like R’ Akiva davened to die al kiddush Hashem.
If you think that it’s possible to die al kiddush Hashem w/o a misah meshuna (which I personally have trouble seeing), then this argument (that we daven not to have a misah meshuna) is not a good argument, since the argument is about whether or not we should daven to die al kiddush Hashem.
sorry, I looked at it too quickly and thought it had something to do with tefilas haderech (it does mention tefilas haderech in front, but it just meant that you say tefilas haderech there or something).
As DY already pointed out, nusach Ashkenaz doesn’t have that phrase. That’s why I never heard of it before and also why I thought it was part of tefilas haderech. I have never said it and never even heard of it. But if it’s part of nusach sefard, then many Jews do say it every day, so you’re right in terms of the point you were making (even if your words were inadvertently inaccurate).
I didn’t realize that there’s a “comma” in between alila and misa meshuna. That mistake was probably at least partially based on the fact that I thought this was tefilas haderech.
“Dying al kiddush Hashem doesn’t require a nisayon or even a misah meshunah (I guess depending on how you define misah meshunah)”
I had thought of that, but then decided it wasn’t a good argument since wouldn’t any death al Kiddush Hashem be a misah meshuna. Although, as you point out, I suppose this depends on the definition of misha meshunah. I would assume, though, that any unnatural death would fall in that category.
I still think that my first argument that it might be excluding a misah meshuna that is al kiddush Hashem is a reasonable argument. Most misah meshuna’s are not al Kiddush Hashem. We don’t want to die a misah meshuna that does not have the purpose of being a Kiddush Hashem.
“Posters have done it with other posters as well (besides Joseph)”
“Mai inyan shemitah eitzel har sinai? we are talking about Joseph (though make no mistake other posters do the same thing)”My point was that people are constantly making incorrect assumptions about other posters. This shows that this is something that people do a lot, so they could be doing it here as well.
” think that people assume that around here a little too quickly sometimes”
Quickly???? It has been years!”That has nothing to do with it. People made these assumptions early on. And even if they didn’t, it is considered to be “too quickly” whenever someone makes an incorrent assumption about someone. Also, I wasn’t only referring to this case. In the less than a year that I have been here, I have seen many, many, incorrect assumptions made about posters. There are many people here who are either very judgmental, not very bright, or have trouble reading, and either think that people said things they didn’t say or make assumptions about the reasons why they wrote what they wrote.
“People create online personas, they say all sorts of things to get a rise out of people, to make a provocative statement or just plain old trolling. ”
I think that people assume that around here a little too quickly sometimes. Posters have done it with other posters as well (besides Joseph). In some cases, it may be a matter of people being complex and having more than one kavana mixed in, so people assume that they are not-serious when in fact they are completely serious but they just have some other things mixed in (I actually am not referring to Joseph with this last sentence, although it may be somewhat true in his case as well).
In other cases, it is just a result of the fact that people have a tendency to be judgmental and also people are influenced by the things that others say about other people and are automatically “mekabel” what others say even though it is assur (but they don’t even realize that is what they are doing and that it is assur).
“I misquoted it is here”
It seems to be part of a particular nusach of tefilas haderech that I never heard of before. Tefilas haderech is not said every day by most people, and I think that few people say this nusach of tefilas haderech altogether (it’s the first I have even heard of it as far as I recall).
Also one can argue that it is not referring to a misah meshuna that comes about as a kiddush Hashem. Also, it adds the word “alila” in front, which may give it a slightly different meaning. One of the meanings of “alila” is “false charge”. Maybe it is referring to a misa meshuna which is given as a punishment as opposed to a misa meshuna that is a kiddush Hashem. Furthermore, it is said as part of tefilas haderech, so it is probably talking about the type of misa meshuna which occurs while travelling, so the intent may not have been about dying al kiddush Hashem (presumably this was written before there were terrorists bombing busses, etc)
“See what the moderator had to say”
That just goes to further prove my point.
oh, I always thought it was. Thanks for educating me!
Wow, there is a Mod 105!!! I always assumed they didn’t go above 100. You mean to say that Mod 100 is not the oldest moderator!?
Why are all of these moderators suddenly coming out of the woodwork and revealing there names?
105 -thanks for taking the time and effort to look up and bring the sources! That is so nice of you!
“Does anybody still take Jospeh seriously?”
I don’t think that’s such a nice thing to say. He means what he says seriously just as much as you do. Even if others might disagree with him, it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t mean it. Just like people disagree with you, but that doesn’t mean that you don’t mean the things you say.
And it’s not like what he’s saying is so crazy. It is based on the Gemara. I just think he is misunderstanding the intent of the Gemara.
“v’lo misah meshunah”
I don’t say that. Where in davening is that?
isn’t it דעתיהן?
thanks for clarifying. I guess there are two different things: One is waiting to see stars and be head over heels and the other is feeling like you like this person and enjoy spending time with him/her and the idea of marrying him/her makes you happy and is not something to dread.
On the other hand, there is one aspect of what you are saying that I agree with.
When people argue that it is dangerous to live in EY, my response is that aside from the fact that I don’t think that’s true, if I had to die anyhow, I would a million times rather die in Eretz Yisrael al kiddush Hashem than to die in chutz l’aretz not al kiddush Hashem.I recently read in Rav Moshe Twersky zatsal HY”D’s biography, that someone once asked him what to do if you’re davening shemona esrei and a siren goes off. He said it’s a catch-22 situation, so either way you should continue davening. If there really is no bomb, chaval to miss out on davening. And if it’s really a bomb, chaval to miss out on the opportunity to die al kiddush Hashem.
The author pointed out in the footnote that he only said this because he didn’t think it was a clearly life-threatening situation that would halachically require someone to protect himself.
I am not sure, but I think it’s possible that you are misunderstanding the Gemara.
And when Jews are killed by goyim, we are sad. We don’t rejoice the way the Arabs do. And we try to do all we can to prevent it. During the holocaust, the Gedolim tried to save as many Jews as they could – they didn’t say, “Great, they get to die al kiddush Hashem. Better they should die al kiddush Hashem now than die later not al kiddush Hashem.”
Also, we daven every day that the day will come when all the goyim recognize Hashem. We are hoping that Mashiach will come today and that no Jews will ever again need to die al Kiddush Hashem.
I realize that your answer to all this could be that one should daven that if he has to die anyhow (if l”a Moshiach comes after he reaches 120), he should daven to die al kiddush Hashem.
I have two responses to that:
1. You should just be davening that Moshiach will come before 120, and that the whole world will do teshuva and no one will murder anyone anymore (like RY basically said).
2. Even if there is such a concept (which I doubt), it only applies to people on that level. For most of us, we should just be davening to be on the level that we want to die al kiddush Hashem.It wasn’t rejected; he was simply responding to the moderator. That doesn’t mean that he rejected your apology.
In any case, I accepted and appreciated your apology (mainly on his behalf, but maybe a bit on my own also), so please don’t take it back 🙁
I like apologies; they make me happy :), and it makes me sad when they are taken back :(.
Mammele – thanks so much for the “tidbit”. There is a lot of truth to that and I think that is a big part of the reason why I have started to consider hashkafic compatibility more important than I used to.
RY – +1!
That is how I always learned it or understood it. Otherwise, why is that 2 women and 1 man is assur but 2 men and 1 woman is not?
It is set to automatically vacuum the floor every day except for Shabbos and Yomtov.
WTP – I’m not sure I agree – at least according to the way that I understood BMYer’s question. In Chassidish circles (and to some extent in the more Yeshivish circles, whether American or Israeli), since everything else was checked out beforehand, all they are looking for is to see if they “click”.
I don’t know if that’s the same thing as saying “perfect together”. I think most people are just looking to see if they like each other and like talking to each other and feel like this is someone they can see themselves being married to. That is what I would call “clicking”, but maybe BMYer means something else.
“..to go out with the INTENT of getting married? Not to see if you “click” or are “perfect together” ?
Or maybe we have just been way too affected by western society and their portrayals of love, romance and..divorce…?”I’m not sure who “we” are, and there are obviously many types of people. Personally, when I go out, I go out assuming that I will marry the guy (which is also why I don’t go out with everyone who is suggested). I do not go out waiting for lightning to strike or bells to ring or to see if I “fall in love at first sight” or something like that.
I actually think that I have been brainwashed the other way, and that I was made to feel that I am just supposed to marry anyone and not care if I like him or not. As a result, I ended up letting myself get pressurred into going out with guys I couldn’t stand for 4-6 dates. I think that was a really bad idea! The guys in those cases usually were almost ready to get engaged and had no idea that I couldn’t stand them, and it wasn’t really fair to them. On my part, I ended up feeling used, and it made me hate dating.
Over the years, I have come to realize that my approach to dating is wrong, and it does matter if you like the guy/girl and you shouldn’t let yourself get pressurred into continuing to date someone you can’t stand. It’s probably kidai to go out on a second date if you have no good reason not to, but not more than that.
Another thing that I have come to realize is that if I don’t like the guy, there is usually a good reason for it even if it’s hard for me to put my finger on it. And as I’ve gotten older, I’ve gotten better at figuring out what it is. I think part of my problem was that I hate being judgmental.
Maybe they are getting back in Elul, not paying back.
We should STRIVE to ULTIMATELY REACH the level of Ahavas Hashem at which one wants to die al Kiddush Hashem, and we should strive to have enough Ahavas Hashem and Emunah that if r”l we end up having to die al Kiddush Hashem, we are able to do so with the right mindset.
But I don’t think we should be davening to die al kiddush Hashem and certainly not to die the way that Rabbi Akiva died.But we should daven to be on the level that if r”l it happened, we would be able to deal with it.
Meanwhile, let’s focus on living al kiddush Hashem!
Why? I thought it was so nice of you to apologize! I’m not saying you had to do, but it was definitely nice of you. Once you did so, why would you take it back?
Why does she have to participate?
The reason why Yichud with 2 women is assur even though it’s muttar with 2 men is because women are cooperative and men are competitive, so the women won’t tell on each other. Even though the other women is married and is afraid of her husband, there’s no reason why that would lead to her telling on the other woman, so why should it be okay for the other woman?BMYer- I’m not sure if I completely get what you are asking. Can you clarify?
In terms of going out with someone who has similar hashkafas, there are definitely other things that I need. I always tell shadchanim that personality is more important to me than hashkafa. I am beginning to question myself on that and to think that hashkafa is more important than I used to think, but I still think that personality is at least as important.
On the other hand, I do agree with you that I think there may be people who just go out to see if they “fall in love with the guy/girl” right away, and they don’t give things enough of a chance. I
But it is really hard to know what is going on in other peoples’ heads. And there really is no way of knowing why someone else is not married yet and what the real reason is that they keep saying no to people when there seems to be no reason for it. Maybe there is a reason for it that I or others are not aware of. Maybe they have some fear of marriage. Maybe they aren’t ready to get married yet for some reason. Maybe their priorities are wrong. Or maybe they just haven’t met the right person yet.
“Any time there are people present for whom there is not a problem of Yichud, there is no problem for anyone else who is there. ”
That’s what I thought, although I wasn’t 100% sure. Also, one case in which I don’t know whether or not that rule applies and I’m not sure what the halacha is: If there is 1 man, 1 married woman whose husband is in town, and 1 single girl.
It’s not a problem for the married woman since her husband is in town (assuming all necessary conditions for this rule to apply are in place), but would that make it okay for the single girl? בעלה בעיר doesn’t help her, so why should it be okay just because it’s okay for the other lady?LB – if this is the way you normally dress and feel comfortable, and since it is considered appropriate and tznius by most people, and as you pointed out, many Rebbetzins dress that way, I think it would be appropriate for you to dress the way you usually do.
Maaseh #2: At a singles’ Oneg Shabbos one Friday night:
I noticed that a certain guy’s conversations all revolved around movies and restaurants. I wouldn’t be likely to go out with someone who watches movies in the first place, but I might not rule it out, depending on various factors. For example, if it’s something he does on occasion because he needs an outlet as an older single boy. But if it’s so much a part of his life that it’s something that his conversations revolve around, and if he thinks it’s appropriate conversation for Shabbos, he is not for me. And the same with restaurants.
And I hear your point, TrueBT, about depending whom you are talking to. But that did not seem to be what was going on here. He seemed to be choosing to talk about these things because they were important to him. And it wasn’t a kiruv Shabbaton.
Also, personally, whomever I am talking to, I can usually manage to find Torahdik or at least important things to talk about that are suitable for that person’s wavelength.
BMYer & TrueBT – regarding my comment about seeing what people are like in real life based on their conversations:
Maaseh #1: There was a certain guy who had been suggested to me many times. I had been told that he was very Torahdik, and he sounded like someone whom I would want to go out with. However, he always said no to me because of my age. I met someone who invited me to come sometime for a Shabbos meal, making the point that they often had single guys there. So I came one week and this guy was there.
I was shocked by a story he told at the Shabbos table. It was the type of thing that would have been questionably border-line appropriate in singer-gender company not on Shabbos. Under the circumstances, it was definitely not appropriate. And it had nothing to do with who he was talking to, since he had no reason to tell this story. Also, I was 1/4 of the people he was talking to.