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“For example only. Iβm sure each store has lower prices on different items at different times.)”
Shkoyach! I realized it was an example, but I wasn’t sure if I should have responded using the same example. It’s probably better to use fake names (even if you make it clear that it’s an example, it can still leave an impression in people’s minds).
Lilmod: “We are talking about COMPARING two places and making a point of telling someone that one is more expensive than the other.”
DY: I am talking about an objective comparison of what two or more stores charge for the exact same product or products.”
DY: “Is Gourmet Glatt allowed to post there prices online? Since undoubtedly there are people who know Seasonsβ prices on specific items, Gourmet Glatt posting a lower price should, according to you, constitute lashon hora.”
You did not read what I wrote carefully. I said that we are talking about making a point of comparing the prices. Gourmet Glatt can post their prices online. They can not make a point of posting Season’s prices and comparing it to their own.
I didn’t realize that we were talking about the same exact same product. Iacisrmma hadn’t mentioned that, and this conversation was about his comment.
In any case, there can be many differences between the 2 stores aside from the product itself. So you still have the same problem I stated above.
I was in the middle of responding but my posts hadn’t been moderated yet (or completed – I am trying to split things up so they shouldn’t be too long)
“My issue had nothing to do with feminism.”
I also wanted to thank you for the fact that you have never let any debates I’ve had with you go in that direction. There have been times (not too many, BH) when I had to back away from arguments with people in the CR because they were bringing the discussion in that direction and it would have been impossible to continue the argument without going somewhere I didn’t want to go.
I was very upset that that discussion ended up going that way and I ended up having to discuss things I didn’t want to discuss.
And I very much appreciate the fact that you have never let any discussions I’ve had with you go in that direction. Thank you.
“My issue had nothing to do with feminism.”
I know you didn’t. I wasn’t talking about you. In terms of your point, I hear your point, but I did feel I had enough information and there were reasons I felt it had to be phrased that way in that particular case. I don’t want to try to explain anymore, and it’s not relevant anymore.
In short, before specifically pointing out that the merchandise in one place is more expensive than in another place, you would probably have to: 1. know that that matters to this person. 2. point out all the maalos of the more expensive place (and that would be assur in a public place since you are putting down the other place and it may not be l’toeles for everyone reading it).
Bottom Line: There are many factors and conditions. Ask a sheilah.
Just to make something clear: we are not talking about telling someone what something costs. We are talking about COMPARING two places and making a point of telling someone that one is more expensive than the other.
It’s like if someone is looking into a shidduch and they ask what Dovid’s IQ is. There is a big difference between saying that he has an IQ of 110 and saying that he is not as smart as Shmuely is.
Also, regarding prices, it’s not simply an objective fact – you are making a point of pointing out that the products in one store are more expensive which will discourage the shopper from shopping there. If you hadn’t pointed it out, she might not have cared enough to look into it. It’s possible that she is someone for whom money is not such an issue, so there was no (halachic) reason to point it out to her.
Furthermore, one of the conditions of toeles is that you have to say things as unnegatively as possible and mitigate the bad by saying any positive things you can. Presumably, if you are telling someone that the merchandise in Store A is more expensive than the merchandise in store B, then you would also have to let them know that it is better quality if it is relevant to the person you are speaking to.
But let’s say you are speaking to Shira who doesn’t know and doesn’t care about quality. All that matters to her is the price. But once you mention that the merchandise in Store A is not as good quality as the merchandise in store B, she will get nervous and think she has to buy in Store B, even though for her it would have made sense to save money and shop in store A. So you have just spoken l’H about Store B for no reason. (and maybe caused shalom bayis problems when her husband gets mad at her for spending money they don’t have).
On the other hand, Tova doesn’t really need to know which is less expensive – she needs to know which is better quality, so there was no reason to point out to her that Store A is cheaper. All she needed to know was that Store B is better quality. But if you tell her that Store A is cheaper without mentioning that Store B has better merchandise, then she will feel she has to shop in Store A. Since for her the quality of the merchandise is what matters and not the price, it was l”h to specifically point out to her that Store A is cheaper. And now she will have shalom bayis problems because her husband would have preferred that she buy the better quality merchandise.
derech agav, I have not been back to that thread (“I think I spoke l”h”) since I posted, but I had noticed that you and LB and RebYidd had posted so I checked your profiles to see what you had posted.
I have been wanting to thank you for understanding and explaining what I wrote. Also, I wanted to tell you that I understand your point, and I would probably agree with you in most similar cases, but there were reasons why I thought this case was different. I could be wrong – I’m really not sure – I can see either way.
I think my goal was attained (that LB should understand things a certain way which I think she did). If I had known that my words would be twisted to sound like feminism and possibly create a chillul Hashem, I might have phrased things differently (although that might have been offset by my concern for LB – I’m not sure).
“Besides, a difference in price on the same product is objective. Why wouldnβt it be lβtoeles for everyone reading it?”
According to that logic, this halacha wouldn’t exist in the first place. Clearly it is not always permitted to tell someone something about merchandise even when it’s true. It is only permissible in certain circumstances. It would be impossible for all of those conditions to be fulfilled in this kind of setting since they would have to be fulfilled for each person reading it and what and how you are allowed to say something to one person would be different than to another.
Bottom line is as you yourself pointed out elsewhere: if something is considered l”h and you think that it may be permissible in a particular case because it’s l’toeles, you have to ask a sheilah. Certainly, before posting something online (something that is brought down as being assur), one would have to ask a sheilah before posting it to find out if all the conditions of toeles apply (and if such a thing is possible in such a setting).
We had been discussing posting online.
I brought this in to show why writing something like this would be a problem online.
The quote from A lesson a day was talking about any kind of speech which would include both speaking to an individual as well as posting online.As you pointed out, when it’s toeles AND if all the conditions of toeles are fulfilled, it can be permissible.
But I don’t think that can possibly apply online for the reason I already mentioned.loshon hora l’toeles is allowed under certain circumstances, so it may be permissible to tell an individual under certain circumstances.
I was talking about posting something online where that is not relevant since your post can be read by the entire world and not just that individual.
“Making a statement about a product that would discourage people from buying it constitutes speaking loshon hora as it could harm the livelihood of either the manufacturer or the storekeeper who sells it.” (Chofetz Chaim: A Lesson A Day by Rabbi Shimon Finkelman & Rabbi Yitzchak Berkowitz, p. 92)
Iacisrmma, it would seem to me that based on this, saying that store x sells an item cheaper than store y would be loshon hora since it will discourage people from buying at store y.
I just googled Dana Mase. She is baalas teshuva. It sounds like she may have started performing before she became Frum, so you may have been looking at old things. Her current music is Frum Jewish music.
In any case, she was always Jewish, but I don’t know if her music was.
You guys are nuts!!!
But I actually like your last two ideas misteryudi. (although I can see some potential problems with the last one).
PBA – you forgot part of the rule. That is the rule until age 24. After that, the first word of the rule gets deleted.
Wow! I just learned the most awesome idea about schar and I have to share it with the CR!
How much schar a person will receive for his Mitzvos is proportional to his bitachon that he will receive schar for his Mitzvos. The more bitachon you have that you will receive schar for your Mitzvos, the more schar you will in fact receive!!!!!!
source: Sifsei Chaim – Rinas Chaim (“b’iurei tefilas Shemona Esrei”), p. 171 (based on the Maharal, Chidushei Agados, Sotah 48b)
Thanks LB! π
You’re definitely right about the last part!!!
what?
LB – not sure what your point is. Can you clarify?
btw, semicha doesn’t have anything whatsoever to do with this discussion as I already pointed out. For one thing, all Jews are required to keep halacha whether they have semicha or not.
For another, to the best of my knowledge, having semicha today has no real halachic ramifications. It is possible for someone to have semicha and be an ignoramus, and it is possible for someone to not have semicha and be the Gadol Hador.
Generally speaking, the more Torahdik a person is and the more Torahdik the society, the less they care about titles and “degrees” and the more they care about a person’s Yiras Shamayim and limud Torah.
yeah, but this person is not….
okay, so let’s test you:
1. How many kids do you have?
2. What game did I play with your daughter last Shabbos?
3. What did I bring for a gift?
4. Why was your son in such a good mood last week, and why did he say that he felt like a “stone was removed from his heart”?1. According to halacha, you are not allowed to say something negative about a store or its products. Bli neder, I will try to find you the precise source if I have a chance tonight.
2. I don’t know Yiddish.
3. I am not sure of the answer to your specific questions. I would assume it depends if there is something in your statement which can reflect negatively on one of the stores in question and can potentially cause them to lose business. I don’t see how the second example can possibly be loshon hora especially if you make it clear that you didn’t visit the other stores.
I would think that the first example might constitute loshon hora, so I would ask a sheilah.Again, keep in mind that we are discussing writing something in a public forum which is very different from giving advice to a friend privately.
When in doubt, asking a sheilah is always best. I think that it is also a good idea to think about how you would feel if it were your store (granted that aitzah might not work for everyone, since not everyone is the same).4. When I find the sources, they may discuss similar scenarios and answer these questions.
5. Ask a sheilah.
Thank you, DY. I was actually considering writing the same.
The Mitzvah of ΧΧΧΧ ΧͺΧΧΧΧ applies to all Jews, not just ones with semicha. It is incumbent upon women as well as men, even though women can’t get semicha (which has no halachic meaning nowadays in any case and is not necessarily an accurate reflection of a person’s knowledge, even if the person is a male person. The lack of semicha certainly reflects nothing about a female’s knowledge, so asking her where she received her semicha is rather absurd).
are you saying that you are a mechalel Shabbos then (c”v)? I’m pretty sure that you have posted when it was Shabbos in EY….. That was our proof that you are not me.
Why should we rule out lady or gentleman? Why do you say that when people say “man or lady”?
I think “man or lady” is the more Yeshivish terminology as opposed to “man or woman” which is more MO. (sociologically speaking, not a reflection of hashkafa or frumkeit. and yes, it’s a generalization).
same place you did – at Har Sinai. Apparently, I’ve done more reviewing than you have since then (at least of certain halachos). Go read through Sefer Chofetz Chaim and you will see that I had an obligation to write what I did.
Gamanit: A woman cutting her husband’s hair is only sometimes a problem, as far as I know.
In terms of having another woman cut a man’s hair or vice versa, one should ask a sheilah.
edited
And apparently many years of happiness and several children, bli ayin hara.
The alternative could have been many years of singlehood. And apparently, most people think it’s better to have the risk of widowhood than to be single (otherwise, no one would get married. You can’t be a widow without being married. And if you choose to get married, you have more than a 50% chance of becoming a widow).
I guess my afterthought hadn’t yet been posted when you wrote that.
I think the idea of davening at kivrei tzaddikim is that they are a makom kadosh, and tefillos recited at a makom kadosh are more powerful.
Also, the zchusim of the tzadikim buried there can provide an extra zchus for your tefilos. We all (chassidish or not) believe that different places have different spiritual realities whether we can feel them or not. The presence of a tzaddik or a tzaddik’s kever gives the place a certain kedusha and therefore the tefilos said in that place are different. The person also becomes a different person as a result of being in a makom kadosh. And therefore, his tefillos are different, and he can connect to Hashem more easily.
On second thought, it probably would be loshon hora to say that clothing is made from dog’s hair, so it probably would be assur to post it online even if someone has allergies to dog’s hair.
If it comes up, ask a sheilah first. Maybe you could pass on the message through the moderators.
RY – while it is true that most things are permissible when said under certain conditions, I don’t think your example is the best example since it is not negative in any case.
I would think that a better example would be if someone asked you if the clothing in a certain store is good quality or if they asked you which of the ice cream places in Lakewood has better ice cream, etc, and since it is l’toeles you may be allowed to respond (although it may not be so simple, so one should ask first).
The problem in this case is that since it’s a public setting, even if it’s l’toeles to tell Rebshidduch something, it would still be assur to post it online.
I was waiting for someone to say that. Ever since I joined the CR, I feel like I’ve been blessed with Ruach Hakodesh! The number of times I’ve known what someone was going to say before they said it!!!!
It was at the Shabbos seudah, and there was more than one person at the table. It could have been either the baal habayis or the baalas habayis. Do you remember who said every word that was said to you during the past week?
Anyhow, I’m 99.99% sure it was the baalas habayis.
For shoes, I always went to a store on Clifton whose name I no longer remember. It was on the same side of the street as KFS and I think it was nearby.
Warning for anyone posting on this thread: Please note that it is assur according to halacha to say anything negative about any stores or products, etc. (no one has so far, B”H, just want to make sure that no one does, because not everyone is aware of that halacha).
When I lived in Lakewood, for clothes shopping I went to Kohl’s in Howell (just outside Lakewood).
Disclaimer: I’m not much of a shopper.
For ice cream, there is:
1. Yismach – across from the library on Lexington between 4rth and 5th
2. Sprinkles – already mentioned by Tobs -in the Shoprite shopping plaza (which is now the Gourmet Glatt shopping plaza)
3. California Swirls – 214 Clifton (it’s actually frozen yogurt, not ice cream).For bagels, I liked Four Corners Bagels (already mentioned by Streekgeek).
I was waiting for you to say that!
Actually, I think it was a lady.
The halacha is not that he has to work – it is that he has to make sure that his family has a parnassah. As long as the family has a parnassah (and he did not do anything assur to obtain that parnassah), he has fulfilled his obligation.
If for example, he is independently wealthy, he does not have to work. Likewise, if his wife wants to work and she earns enough money for the family, he does not have to work. On the other hand, he would not be allowed to tell her that she has to work. Of course, if he feels that it is in the family’s best interest that she work in order to support him in kollel (or for some other reason), he can certainly discuss it with her as long as he does so in an appropriate way.
Has Loshon HaKodesh now been banned from the Coffee Room? And after the CR staff worked so hard to make it possible to post in loshon haKodesh?
oh my gosh – someone just said that to me last Shabbos when I said the same thing that I said above! π
I’ll give you the same response I gave them – that is one of the nissim in the Bais HaMikdash – that even though it
will be crowded, no one will feel crowded.Looking forward to the day when I can be in a crowd but not feel crowded!!! B’ezras Hashem, soon!!!
What? It’s not about an imaginary person. It’s about ME being upset because another Jew or another person is being put down.
Let’s say someone says something offensive about Sephardim, I don’t have to be Sephardi to be offended. I am upset because someone just put down my fellow Jews. It bothers ME that they were put down. Even if c”v the Sephardim died out and there were no living Sephardim to be offended, I would be upset that all the dead Sephardim are being put down even though they can’t be offended because they are dead. I can still be offended.Wouldn’t it upset you if someone put down your brother or your friend?
A chassidish American lady once told me that a lot of chassidim come to EY for Lag B’Omer to go to Meron. Apparently, it’s considered a “big deal” by the Chassidim.
As for me, I’m with WTP – I can’t handle crowds. It is probably an amazing uplifting experience – but it wouldn’t be for me. I’ll find another opportunity to go to Meron be”H.