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Health – I don’t know why you are having such a hard time understanding what I wrote. I spent a lot of time explaining it to you, and I don’t know why you still don’t understand. I think if you reread my posts carefully and really try to understand them, you will be able to understand them. If you still have any questions, you can ask me politely, and I will try to answer them for you.
I have been teaching halacha for many years and I have taught this sugya and I never had a student who had such a hard time understanding it. It is possible that I am used to teaching students of a different caliber, but I have the feeling you are not really trying very hard and if you try harder you will understand.
I am curious if the others out there were able to understand or are having the same issues.
Health, you wrote: This goes on throughout the business world! Not just in doc’s offices. Firstly, people go in and out all day long. After closing it could be problematic – if they’re there alone.
But the posters here are always making a mountain out of a moehill!
It sounds like your’e saying it’s okay as long as it’s not after closing hours, and that you consider it to be making a mountain out of a molehill if it’s just during day time hours.
If that’s not what you meant then please clarify what you meant, esp. the part about making a mt. out of a molehill.
Sparkly – I don’t think Shopping613 meant to insult you. I think that she seriously thought you were a teenager. I believe she also referred to herself as a teenager, so she clearly did not think it was a negative statement.
If you feel insulted by something someone says, you should let them know instead of coming up with ways to insult them back. You might find out that you totally misunderstood them and they had no idea that you felt hurt by what they said.
Health – it doesn’t say that women can’t learn Torah, only that men can’t teach them Torah. Also, it’s only referring to certain parts of the Torah (that men can’t teach them) so they can still use their brains learning the other parts. And the Rambam says that women who do learn Torah Shebeal peh get schar for it. Which has to be explained since he just said that women aren’t supposed to learn Torah Sheb’al Peh. One common explanation is that even though most women shouldn’t learn Torah Shebeal peh, there are some women that should, and those women get schar for it.
Bottom line is that Chazal do not say that women can’t use their brains! As one of my rebbeim once pointed out, you can’t be a good Jew without using your brain. You have to constantly be using your brain in order to figure out what the halacha or correct thing to do is in every situation you are faced with every second of the end. And knowing the halacha in every situation is not a simple thing!
Health and DY – if you’re still having trouble understanding the Sugya, this might make it clearer. The halacha in this case (as per the Mishna Brura) is not determined by the bracha but rather by which one is chaviv. However, there are those who think that it goes by the bracha.
I hope that you understand by now. If not, I can’t help you.
Health – “I wasn’t talking about Shalame.” You wrote that the Halacha is that if there is no chaviv or 7 minim, Haetz comes first. According to the Mishna Berura that is not correct – the next thing we look at is shalem.
Daas Yachid – I realize that you were quoting the Mishna Berurah, but you were only quoting one segment of the Mishna Berurah where he comments on a particular point in the Shulchan Aruch as opposed to quoting the section in the B’iur Halacha where he explains in depth the halacha of which comes first when you have a Haetz and a Haadama, which is the issue at hand.
This is the problem with anyone (male or female) attempting to learn halacha from the Mishna Berurah if they don’t have sufficient training in studying halachic sources.
Both you and Health have proved the point that not everyone (male or female) should be studying Mishna Brura. In addition to needing the training in halachic sources, one has to be able to think logically. If someone reads the statement: “The halacha when one has a Haetz and a Haadama is not that the Haetz comes first”, and thinks that means that Haadama comes first, they do not know the first thing about logic!!
Health – you proved my point that the halacha is not that Haetz comes first, since you quoted sources that say that the halacha is not that Haetz comes first.
I never said or implied anywhere that Haadama comes first!!! I simply said that the halacha is not that Haetz comes first. According to the Mishna Brura, neither one comes first – it goes by chaviv, not by the bracha.
I happen to have a strong background in both halachic thinking and logical thinking. I can see how someone who doesn’t might have had trouble understanding what I wrote, but I hope it is clear to you now.
lesschumras, nowadays, most people are not able to support themselves yet when they get married, and in many communities, it is accepted that the parents help out. That might not be the accepted practice in your community, but in a community where it is, there is nothing wrong with someone getting married at 17.
Keep in mind that nowadays, it can take many years until someone is earning enough to support a family, since you first have to go to school for many years and then it can take a while to build up your career.
Older single girls often prefer marrying someone who was previously married. I have been advised by many that a divorced guy is usually (emphasis on usually) a better choice than an older single guy.
I think that a divorced Cohen may actually be in a better situation than a single older Cohen. A single older Cohen who is a baal teshuva would probably have it the hardest. On the other hand, there are so many older single girls out there including many ffb’s who will date bt’s and there are some almanas as well.
Joseph, in terms of supply and demand, it is true that there are more divorces than almanas, but at the same time, keep in mind that: a) we are only talking about divorced Cohanim and b) almanos often have a very hard time getting remarried because it is hard to find a guy who is willing to marry an almana with kids. So if the divorced Cohen is willing to marry an almana with kids, I would think that he should be able to find someone (as long as he’s normal and nice).
penp – I think in America, it’s much more accepted. Things are not as black and white. I know very good girls who use facebook. I’m not saying I recommend it, but I definitely don’t think it’s a reason not to go out with someone. The fact that she dresses tzniusly is much more important than whether or not she uses fb.
At some point, you will need to clarify that you have similar views regarding what you would want your future home to look like in terms of internet, tv and movies. But I don’t think the fact that as a single girl, she is using fb is a reason to reject her, especially if she only uses it for friends (girls).
Sparkly, your comment to Shopping 613 was really rude and inappropriate. If you can’t come up with a response to someone else’s arguments, putting them down is definitely an immature approach to take.
Moderators -since you edited her post, I’m wondering why you let that comment pass.
A friend of mine asked Rav Sheinberg, Zatsal about accepting a job in an office where she felt uncomfortable for similar reasons. He told her not to take the job and he added, “Do you know how many girls get pregnant working in offices?”
So Health, even if it is something that happens all the time and has become accepted practice, it doesn’t make it okay. I don’t want to go into details here, but many terrible things have happened as a result of people doing things that had become accepted, but should have realized were problematic. People need to think and not assume that something is okay just because it has become accepted. Girls should rely on their gut instincts when it comes to tznius and not allow themselves to be put in situations where they are uncomfortable. Too often, girls feel like they have to repress their feelings in order to go along with others’ opinions.
I definitely agree with everyone who wrote that she should ask a Rav immediately. Either that, or just go with your guy instincts and don’t take the job. Honestly, I’ve never understood why it’s considered acceptable for a man to have a female secretary or assistant!
Haman – because of all the water you drank before the fast started.
Health and DY: btw, you neglected to mention that when the Haadama is shalem it comes first according to the Mishna Berurah even if it’s not chaviv or 7 minim.
For all those people who are arguing with me about the order of priorities when eating a HaEtz and a HaAdama, please see: Biur Halacha, Siman 211, d”h: “V’yesh omrim shegam…” and Shaar Hatzion 5.
There is a machlokes Rishonim which comes first. There are several opinions including an opinion that it goes by chaviv (which one you like best) and an opinion that HaEtz takes priority. L’maaseh, the Mishna Berurah poskens that we hold according to the opinion that it goes by chaviv not by Haetz. If both are chaviv, then it goes by Sheva Minim or Shalem. In Shaar Hatzion, he says that he is not sure which of those two take priority – sheva minim or shalem – but in any case they both take priority over Haetz. It is only in a case where there is no chaviv or sheva minim or shalem (or both are shalem) that he says to take the Haetz opinion into account.*
There are other opinions. I think the Kaf HaChaim might hold that HaEtz comes first, but generally speaking, Ashkenazim poskim by the Mishna Berurah over the Kaf Hachaim. In Rav Bodner and Rav Forst’s sefarim, they posken according to the Mishna Berurah in this issue. And anytime I had this argument with anyone who thought the Halacha was that Haetz came first, it was not because they were quoting the Kaf Hachaim but rather because they thought that’s what the Mishna Berurah said, until I showed them the B’iur Halacha and they realized I was right.
Health and DY: I’m not sure what your point is. The sources you’re quoting simply prove my point!!! The Mishna Berurah does not hold by the opinion that Haetz comes first. He holds by the opinion that chaviv comes first, and is only choshesh for that opinion if there is no chaviv, shalem or 7 Minim.
* He does also take it into account in 2 other cases: 1. If he likes the Haadama better in general, but he likes the Haetz better now and it is a 7 Minim, then the M.B. says to make the bracha on the Haetz first. 2. If he he likes the Haadama better in general but he likes the Haetz better now, even if it’s not a 7 minim, he says that perhaps you should make the bracha on the Haetz first.
Bottom line, he does not posken that Haetz comes first; he takes that opinion into account in certain circumstances.
Akuperman is right that the lines are much less clear in the US, and outside of the New York/New Jersey areas they are even less clear. In Israel, one really has to choose whether he is Chareidi or Dati-Leumi. These are very definite labels and they determine everything including what schools you send your kids to, who your Rabbanim are, and what your kids end up doing after high school.
In the United States, there are not such clear-cut labels, and it is possible to get away with having no label at all.
I agree with you Penp that it is very important to know the differences between America and Israel for shidduchim. I have dated in both Israel and the US. When I am in Israel, I am not likely to date a guy who is not Chareidi, but in the US, I am much more open to dating guys with different labels.
In the US, I don’t have to define the guy by his label, because in the United States, someone who is not Chareidi can still have a chareidi Rav and send his kids to the same schools that I would. Also, the Zionist issues (like whether or not we should send our sons to the army) are not really issues there. The only Zionist issue in the US is whether or not he says Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut, and who cares?
Another difference between the US and Israel is that in the US people don’t usually use the terms Chareidi and Dati Leumi. The equivalent terms are Yeshivish and Modern Orthodox, but they don’t mean exactly the same things as Chareidi and Dati Leumi. It is also confusing because the term ‘Yeshivish’ is used in different ways by different people/communities.
If someone has Chareidi hashkafos but doesn’t dress Yeshivish or watches movies or goes to college/work, he would not be considered Yeshivish by most people in the American Chareidi world, but most Modern Orthodox people would call him Yeshivish.
The term Modern Orthodox is also confusing since it has a wide range of meanings. It can refer to someone who doesn’t keep all the halachos (for example, hilchos tznius), or it can refer to someone who is makpid on halacha but does not have Chareidi hashkafos (generally in terms of issues such as Zionism, Feminism, secular studies and listening to Daas Torah). Sometimes, the term Modern Orthodox is used by people simply because they do not feel comfortable in the Yeshivish world for sociological reasons, since it’s not the type of community they grew up in.
Hope that helps. You can ask me to clarify if you want. I have lived and worked and dated in different types of communities in both countries so it is a topic that I am fairly well-versed in.
apushatayid – my personal feeling is that it might not be assur to read a magazine while using the facilities (although it is probably better to try to avoid it) – since you can’t do anything else anyhow (kind of like the idea that it’s not a problem of Bittul Torah, although it’s not exactly the same), but to stay longer to read would definitely be assur.
In terms of sitting on one’s bed: I don’t think there is any heter to sit on a bed. Lying in a bed in order to sleep is obviously mutter, but I think that one should try to get up as soon as he wakes up, and not remain lying in bed awake for too long.
Sparkly, no one makes up halachos about women not driving. In some communities, the accepted minhag is that women don’t drive. If someone chooses to consider herself a member of such a community, it is possible that halachically it is assur for her to drive, since there are halachos about minhag hamakom and listening to one’s Rav.
You do have to belong to such a community, and you do not have to understand their minhagim either. What you do have to do is to learn to respect other’s minhagim even if you don’t choose to follow them. I personally would not want to be part of a community where women are not allowed to drive, but I have no problem respecting them and I certainly would not go around criticizing them in cyberspace.
You would be upset if they told you that it is assur for you to drive, so don’t tell them that they are doing something assur by not driving. That is the epitomy of close-mindedness.
Shopping 613 – Great Post!!!! (the long one).
You made some really important points and expressed them well! I especially agree with you about the types of things one needs to know before he/she gets married and the things that he/she does not need to know. I also agree that people need to be more open-minded about the fact that different people can be ready to get married at different ages.
Additionally, even if you get a reference who only speaks good of the person, you can often tell something by the qualities they list and the ones they omit. If you call 3 references and every single one tells you that the guy is good-looking, friendly and sweet and is always doing chesed, but no one mentions anything about his learning or intelligence, chances are that he is not a genius and is not a masmid or they would have mentioned that. If learning and/or intelligence are very important to you, that might signify that he is not for you.
Likewise, if everyone talks about how Frum he is and how machmir he is on halacha and what a big masmid he is and no one mentions anything else, that might be a sign that he is not the warmest, most sensitive person, and w/o jumping to conclusions, you might want to look into it further. This was actually a real example that happened to me. I looked into it further and found out that that was the case and the reason for his divorce. I chose not to go out with him.
JF, it really depends on the references. There are times when the phone calls were useless, but there have also been many times when I obtained VERY useful information from the references.
For example,I once called a very reliable and well-known reference (amongst other things the ref. is an expert in Hilchos LH). He asked me what I am looking for, and when I said I do not want someone who is controlling, he told me the guy is not for me.
There have been other times when I asked if the guy had any psychological issues and I received honest answers (worded carefully in order to avoid LH issues).
Also, even though I have been studying halacha in depth for many years, I am continually coming across new Halachos!
Nechoma, as someone who has been studying halacha my entire life and teaching it for several years, I can tell you that it takes many, many, years of studying halacha in order to know all the basic halachos that you need to know on a daily basis.
I attended a Bais Yaakov high school and know many others who have and I do not know a single person who knows all of the halachos that one needs to know on a daily basis.
I have known very-seriously-Frum Bais Yaakov graduates from very-seriously-Frum families who were not aware of and were oiver on basic halachos such as cutting up a salad on Shabbos several hours before the meal and speaking about melachos that they were going to perform during the week.
To take one (very important) example, I know very few people (men or women) who know all of the halachos of dibbur chol on Shabbos and people (including Bnei Torah) are oveir on it all of the time without even realizing it.
To take another example: I taught Hilchos Brachos last year, and I studied it in depth, and I realized that there are many, many halachos that people are not aware of. For example, most people (of both genders including B’nei Torah) think that if you have a Haetz and a Haadamah, you make the bracha on the Haetz first, and this is incorrect according to the Mishna Berurah and most comtemporary Poskim.
Health – not everyone gets divorce because they think it will be better next time. I think that’s a bad reason to get divorced. I think that someone should only get divorced if he/she thinks he/she will be better off not being married to anyone than being married to their current spouse.
I agree with JF2 that if someone is in a dead marriage, they should get divorced. On the other hand, if there are kids involved, they should think very carefully about all the consequences of getting divorced vs. the consequences of staying in the dead marriage.
I’m not saying that getting divorced is wrong when there are kids (in some cases, it may even be better for the kids), but just that they have to really think it through carefully. If they do decide to get divorced, they have to think carefully about the effects on their kids and how they can mitigate them. For example, it is important to make sure that boys have someone to learn with them and sit with them in shul. It is also important to make sure that none of the kids feel over-burdened and that the kids have a good support system.
From my experience, there are basically two types of resumes.
1:This is the type used by 19 year old Bais Yaakov girls.This kind just lists the vital statistics. Most of the page is covered by two things: a) a list of siblings and facts about them b) A long list of references.
2: Most others use this type. This is for people who are not 19 years old and have something original to say about themselves, so they don’t have to fill the paper up with facts about their families.
In this type of reference, one would have a section on what she is looking for, and a section describing herself (She could also include both in one paragraph if she wants.) She should describe herself both in terms of hashkafa and personality and explain what she is looking for in terms of hashkafa and personality. She should also write what she does. Each of these things can be written under a separate heading or all together in one paragraph (as long as it’s not too long).
Most people also write the schools they went to (usually a separate heading, but it doesn’t have to be).
She should list 3 or 4 references. She should think carefully about who she lists as references. Just because someone knows you well and is a good friend does not necessarily make them a good reference.
On the top of the page, most people list their height and their birthday or age, but some people leave it out.
Sparkly – “There are people who got married at an older age and got divorced but less common than when young people get married and divorced.”
You can’t make a definitive statement like that without any facts to back it up. Actually, I think it’s the opposite. Most divorced people that I know got married when they were older!
Getting married in order to have someone care for you is the wrong reason, and often leads to divorce!! If someone is getting married for that reason, he/she is not ready to get married yet!
apushatayid – I understood that skald69 is saying that the girls he dates don’t learn those things. When they were in high school and seminary, they had no choice, but now they don’t learn anymore.
If someone wants to make sure that he doesn’t get divorced, the most important thing is to work on his Middos and communication/relationship skills. Observing happily married couples, having a good Kallah teacher, and/or going to a good therapist before/during one’s marriage are all probably helpful ways to do that.
The other very important thing is to get married for the right reasons.
Sparkly – Health never said that he spent more time with his kids than his wife – that was a misunderstanding on your part which he already explained- so I do think you owe him an apology.
In terms of divorces, I know people from all types of background who are divorced as well as people from all types of backgrounds who are happily married. I have never noticed a connection between the age they got married and whether or not they got divorced. I also have not noticed a connection between how long people dated and whether or not they got divorced.
Additionally, how long people date and how well they know each other is not connected to how they met. You can meet through a shadchan and get to know each other well, and you can meet naturally and not know each at all.
At the end of the day, if you look around you, I think it is clear that dif things work for dif people, so everyone has to do what’s right for him & not criticize everyone else.
Avi, I disagree with you about women learning Kitzor Shulchan Aruch or Chayei Adam as opposed to Mishna Berura. If you learn Kitzur Shulchan Aruch or Chayei Adam, you will not know what to do l’maaseh. It is true that there are times when we don’t posken according to the Mishna Berurah, but in general, if you act according to the Mishna Berurah, you are on safe grounds. The best is to learn Mishna Berurah with Dirshu (that’s what I do), since he brings the opinions of the contemporary poskim.
The only problem with women learning Mishna Berurah might be that most women don’t have the necessary training and background, and might come to “posken” incorrectly. I assume that is why many schools learn Kitzur Shulchan Aruch. In any case, if one wants to ensure that she knows halacha l’maaseh properly, she is probably best off reading a quality English Halacha Seifer, but I don’t think they exist yet for every topic.
I have not actually come across one yet for Cheilik Alef, although I have been looking for such a thing, since I am teaching it now.
Sparkly, I’m sure you didn’t mean your comments to Health the way they sounded – sometimes, when people are writing posts, they don’t realize how they sound – but I think it was a bit offensive to tell someone the reason you think he is divorced. Maybe an apology would be appropriate.
“i thought yeshivish girls dont learn gemara?”
“I think you are correct”
That is actually not correct.There are Yeshivish girls who learn Gemara. However, it’s done on an individual basis – not as a mass thing. This is according to the way most understand the halacha of girls not learning Torah Sheb’al Peh (although there are many opinion on the topic) – that it is not something for the masses, but that there are individual women who could or should learn Gemara, assuming they are doing it for the right reasons.
Sparkly – I don’t think that skald89 was talking about Gemara; he was talking about girls learning the halachos that apply to them. He didn’t say anything about how they should learn it (whether through Gemara or through attending a shiur). It sounded like the girls he went out with don’t learn at all, though any method. I think the issue was whether or not girls should be learning – not how they should be learning.
I agree with Charliehall that you are probably going out with the wrong girls. I know lots of girls who love learning and consider it an integral part of their lives. Either that, or maybe it has to do with the way you phrase the statement (I don’t know how you phrase it; I am just guessing that sometimes when something sounds funny to someone, it has to do with the way that it is phrased.)
The idea that women have no chiyuv to learn is a common misconception.
According to the Mishna Brura, women have a chiyuv to learn the halachos that apply to them, and that is why they say the Bracha of “asher kidishanu b’Mitzosav V’TZIVANU l’asok b’divrei Torah” every morning (B’iur Halacha, Siman 47, d”H “Nashim”)
Rav Avigdor Miller says in one his books that a woman would have to sit and learn for at least 60 years in order to finish learning all of the things that she is CHAYIV to learn. He says the difference between men and women is that she has more excuses not to learn than he does, but she also has a chiyuv to learn when she is able to.
Sparkly – how one learns best – whether through attending shiurim or learning independently – is an individual decision. But both ways are considered to be learning. Each person has to decide how she incorporates learning in her life, but everyone has a chiyuv to learn, however she does it.
Torah is at the center of every Jew’s life, male or female, and the only way to know what Hashem wants you to do is through learning Torah in one form or another. Every Jew has to make some time to learn, whether it’s daily, weekly or even monthly. There are so many halachos that every woman and girl MUST know. If you did not have the opportunity to learn, then you may not be held accountable for not knowing. But if you had the opportunity to learn and you didn’t, you have no excuse for being oveir on a halacha!
How many times do people complain of boredom?! Have they finished learning every Halacha that they are REQUIRED to know? If not, how can they complain of boredom? There are enough English language Sefarim out there that anyone can and must pick up and learn!!!