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I heard Yitzchak Miller went to Harvard.
“Sparkly – “apushatayid – so you hang out with the other gender? its not a psak to not hang out with the other gender most rabbis unless their mo say its not okay to hang out with the other gender.”
i think that even mo rabbis say that its prohibited to hang out with the other gender.”
And either way, the halacha does not change based on calling oneself MO. Either it’s assur according to halacha or it’s muttar and you can’t change halacha by calling yourself MO. It’s not like being Ashkenazi and Sefardim where (in some cases) there are different halachos (although not when it comes to things like this).
To say something positive about Am Yisroel during the Nine Days – I was about to walk down an outside staircase the other day and two Israeli Chassidish men were standing on the top of the staircase one on each side. It’s not assur for a girl to walk between 2 men, but I believe that it’s brought down that its’ better not to, and it’s something I usually try to be makpid on.
So I debated in my head for half a second about what to do (just walk down the stairs anyhow, wait to see if they will move, or walk around a different way that takes about 2 extra seconds) Before I had a chance to think too much, they saw me and moved to the side. I thought that was really nice of them!
Popa bar Abba: “Maybe, but meanwhile, since the women are doing what they’re doing, at least the men have to do what they can.”
Agreed!
I’m game to start again or to let someone else if someone else wants to.
mo4644 – do you exist?
The bottom line is that the Gedolim know a lot more than we do and we have no business criticizing them even when we know exactly what happened. In this case, as I pointed out earlier, we have no clue what happened so we certainly can’t criticize. We don’t know exactly what the girls said and how they said it. We also don’t know exactly what Rav Shach zatsal said and how he said it.
I can tell you from my experiences sending sheilahs to Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Shlita, that he clearly has Ruach Hakodesh and knew exactly what I needed to hear. Since Rav Shach zatsal was even greater than Rav Chaim, I assume that he had Ruach Hakodesh and knew exactly what the girls needed to hear.
I would also add that Rav Chaim has always treated my questions with the greatest respect. I don’t ask him questions on Ramban that anyone can answer. I ask him serious halachic sheilas after I have gone through all the sources (including Gemaras, Rishonim, Shulchan Aruch, Mishna Berurah and contemporary Poskim) and have determined that it is a difficult sheilah that no one else would be able to answer but him. I also ask him serious hashkafa questions that no one else would be able to answer.
Please keep in mind that the girls were acting with a lot of chutzpah. We tend to have this attitude that we can just waste Gedolim’s time on any dumb question as though they are our servants and should be available for whatever we want. A Gadol’s time is precious, and it is very chutzpadik to go to him with your schoolwork instead of going to your teacher!
Syag Lchochma, I hear your point about people arguing just because they are “hearing” something differently. And it is annoying when people get into stupid arguments about things. However, in this case, I do not agree with your take on the situation.
“I often see young adults or older girls shamusing ,laughing etc. right in middle the street when the men go and come from shul in the late evening. Wouldn”t it be appropiate if they would at least move to the side or against the wall and lower their tone of voice?”
If you look at his words and not just the “tone”, he writes that the girls should move to the side. It sounds like they are in the middle of the street in a place where the men have to walk on their way in and out of shul. It is inappropriate for girls to be standing right where men are walking out of shul. He writes that they should move to the side – he doesn’t say they should get off the street and go inside, just that they should have the courtesy to move to the side.
He also writes that they should lower their voices. It sounds like they are being very loud. I mean it is technically possible that they were talking in a regular tone of voice and he thinks that they should whisper, but I did not want to be judgmental and assume that he is the kind of person who thinks that girls have to whisper in public. If he were that kind of person, he probably would have said that they should stop talking in the street which is not what he said.
“Of course you can “manage in life” without knowing how to make cake. But that is not why it’s not “important” to know how to make cake. It’s not important because, well, it’s not. Why don’t you tell me why you think it IS important and we’ll go from there.”
Sorry, but I already answered this. Please read my post before you ask the same questions again and again.
“Also applies to men. And I guarantee you that no man who ever asked a shaila on a Ramban was told that some things are more important than learning Ramban and he should make sure that he knows how to make cake and potato kugel.”
I guarantee you that no boy ever did something so dumb as to go to Rav Shach with his question on Ramban instead of asking his teacher or tutor.
And I hate to break it to you, but women and men do have different tafkidim in life.
Furthermore, whenever a Gadol has reason to think that a man is not fulfilling his obligations in the home, he will tell him, and usually, much more sharply than the way he would tell a girl.
Furthermore, did it occur to you that maybe Rav Shach said this because he felt that the girls were overly stressed about their schoolwork?
“Last I heard, Neve stopped taking in ffb girls and is only accepting bts and girls who are not yet religious”
I wonder if this is old information or not 100% accurate. I heard that many years ago, but I know for a fact that app. still 6 years ago, they still had ffb girls though. What you are probably referring to is the fact that they don’t love having ffb girls and are hesitant to accept them. But they definitely did take several of them.
Their concern is that sometimes the ffb girls who go to Neve are very immature, especially if they are 18 or 19 year olds who did not “make it in the Yeshiva system.” Sometimes they are rebellious girls who just want to have a roof over their heads while they party all night.
However, it does not sound like friend is like that. It sounds like she is a mature girl who sincerely wants to learn, so I think it is kidai for her to go ahead and apply.
Neve is a great place! Maybe you should consider it for yourself.. I think you might really like it!
I am not sure, but I assume that you can be anonymous. I will try to get more info for you if you want.
MA – best way to get rid of a bad habit is by replacing it with something more meaningful. If you spend time doing something, it is because you feel a “need” for it. If you get into something that is both enjoyable and meaningful, you won’t “need” to read the news anymore. Bad habits are a result of voids- fill the void and you won’t need the habit!
Sparly – you’re right for not saying where you are from.
“i know frum people who dont keep shomer.”
And I know Frum people who don’t keep Shabbos
lilmod ulelamaid – when did i say i like school? besides for talking about it 24/7?
🙂 that would show that you like it, wouldn’t it?
I don’t remember your exact comments but you’re always talking about how important college is and about how you like learning, etc… maybe you didn’t say it straight out, but it definitely sounded like you like school!
I am personally familiar with Neve. They are a great school, and they do take Frum girls. A lot of girls from Frum backgrounds gain a lot from Neve as they give things that “regular” schools don’t. What is this girl like religiously and what is she looking for in a school? I am very familiar with many programs, so I may be able to advise.
There’s a hotline for teenagers. It’s advertised in Lakewood publications. It started recently under the auspices of Rav Yehuda Jacobs. He is also working on a lot of other programs for kids-at-risk. I’m not sure what else there is yet, but I can find out tomorrow, bli neder.
Sparkly, I know people who believe in Hashem and are OTD. They want to come back and many do.
At the same time, I second Absan’s post. Yasher Koach to you for staying Frum! The harder your challenges were, the greater your reward will be. And the reward is unbelievably great to begin with even w/o challenges!!!
Sparkly, I think that was a really good idea! The only reason I got it is because you said that you think it’s fun but most people wouldn’t think so. I know enough about you by now to know that could only mean school…. otherwise, I don’t think I ever would have guessed! Or at least it would have taken a really long time!!
Sparkly – she quit her job, not college.
“Al tadun es chaveircha ad shetagia l’mkomo”
Johnny, maybe you should call the Lakewood hotline and ask them for advice.
Sadgirlygirl: The best time to get married is when there’s a hall available.
I think the right Chosson is a little more important…. Technically, you can get married w/o a hall, but it’s not a good idea to marry the wrong guy
Is it school?
Shopping613 🙂 A lot of people think that! or at least they would, but since most people I have contact with can see or hear me, they realize I am a girl.
I think that Sparkly said in another thread that she is from Lakewood. But she has also that she is MO, and as far as I know there are no MO communities in Lakewood, so I was just assuming that she has a Rabbi who does not live in Lakewood. Or maybe she grew up in Lakewood but now lives elsewhere?
Sparkly – “so his still a frum guy just doesnt keep shomer.”
Sparkly, I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but not being shomer negiah may fall in the category of “yahareg v’al yaavor” which makes it much worse than other aveiros, so it’s hard to call someone who is not shomer negiah Frum.
Sparky: “lilmod ulelamaid – if you knew what i go thru and i still am frum and what i went thru and still am frum than you wouldnt say well they have issues and so on believe me i know MANY girls who went otd who had much better lives than me.”
Sparky, you don’t really know that they had better lives than you. There are so many things you can’t and don’t know. There are so many factors involved. Also, even if they had better lives than you, they may have been faced with nisyonos that you weren’t.
To sum up so far: 1. Is it visible? yes
2. is it alive? no
3.Is it man made? yes
4.Do people go in it? yes.
5.Is it for recreation? no.
QUESTION 6: Is it a type of building?
“popa_bar_abba – why should they have too just because of theirs not tznius girls? the girls should start being tnius.”
Right on Sparky! Too many people have the attitude that they can do what they want and the guy shouldn’t look!! That’s not the Torah’s hashkafa! According to the Torah, it’s a terrible thing to be machshil others by being untznius.
Rav Moshe has a teshuva where he talks about how terrible it is when girls wear short skirts because they are causing others to do aveiros.
Sparkly: “lilmod ulelamaid – if you gave someone a therapist to talk to theyd be mad with you.”
That was exactly my point!
I wouldn’t recommend NCSY if she’s not talking to boys and she’s from a background where that’s unacceptable. A certain Rav who used to work in NCSY compared it to the Para Aduma – it’s metaher the temaim and metamei the tehorim.
While they do great things and can be great for some people, they can be bad others. This girl does not sound like a good candidate for NCSY.
I am sure that Lakewood has programs for girls like her. I will look into bli neder and get back to you.
Abba_s “Getting married and having kid don’t come simultaneously unless you are expecting at the wedding.”
That’s not true if you marry someone who already has kids from a previous marriage or if you adopt right after you get married.
“Independent pharmacies require capital which you wouldn’t be able to get due to your and your husband’s college loans.”
The point is that she’ll be busy with parnassah. If her goal is to open her own pharmacy eventually, that includes doing the things she needs to do in order to get there. Either way, she is referring to Parnassah hishtadlus, so the specifics are irrelevant.
Rabbi Jacobs has been starting all these programs for kids and teenagers. There is a hotline but it doesn’t sound like she would call it. Maybe you could call to ask them aitza about what to tell her.
I think they were going to be starting a mentoring program, maybe, but I don’t know if they did. I’m not in Lakewood now, but have you seen anything advertised in the local publications?
I know someone I can call to try to find out if there is such a thing.
Shopping613 – amen to the right guy:) i dont know if ill be on here when i get married because ill have a husband, kids and pharmacy to take care of h’h.
meno – we dont earn anything out of it. besides for knowing about random stuff. im not learning science or math or Torah from being on here.
Right on Sparkly! And it’s not good for Shalom Bayis or Chinuch – when you’re married, you should be spending time with your husband and kids, not “talking” to strangers on-line !!!
“”Or am I just over doing???”
Yes.”
NO.
absan- you are probably right, but it doesn’t sound like she would appreciate someone giving her the name of a therapist. Actually, most people wouldn’t unless they asked.
Better to find a program that’s matim to her and won’t make her feel like a nebach case. And then maybe through the program, she will end up going to a therapist.
Maybe there is a summer camp or program that would be matim for her.
How old is she and where does she live?
Sparkly – I hope that when I’m married, I won’t spend time this way!! 🙂
“As a teenager myself, here is my advice. Just be nice. Give her the feeling that you are always there for her. Even to get her out of a mess she has put herself into.
When she decides to change and come back, shell know there is SOMEONE there to help her.
NOBODY can change her. Only she herself has to want to change in order for it to happen. So if she doesn’t want it, don`t bother pushing too hard.”
Pringle, very well-said!
jf2 -shkoyach on your post pointing out the post that needed deleting!!
Tizki L’Mitzvos – tremendous zchus that you have for that!
Sadgirlygirl: Yasher Koach!!! You are very brave, and I am sure Hashem will reward you tremendously for this!!!
Hatzlacha in putting up with the “quitting” comments. I know how hard it can be when you are doing the right thing and no one gets it and criticizes you instead of encouraging you!!
JF2- the fact that you can’t manage in life without making cake doesn’t mean it’s not important. There are also people who manage without learning Rambans.
The point wasn’t about Rambans or cakes per se’. It was more about being well-rounded and setting priorities as needed. When someone gets married, they can’t spend all of their time learning Rambans, since they have to spend some time taking care of their families, whether that means baking cakes or changing diapers or spending time with your kids, etc. Exactly what it involves depends on the person and her husband and her life circumstances,etc, but in most cases, it does involve something other than learning Ramban.
For that matter, if a girl spent all her time baking cakes, I would also tell her that she needs to spend some time learning (although it doesn’t have to be Ramban just like it didn’t have to be cake.)
“They don’t accept the written Torah as an inherently binding legal text”
And that is exactly what makes them apikorsum.
Exactly!
JF2: I think you need to look up the sources on the definition of apikorus, and then you will understand what Joseph and I are saying. Please see the above-mentioned Igros Moshe before you continue debating the point.
Sparkly, I think what I was asking is: Is fun/recreation its main purpose?
For example, I may find zoos to be boring. but the purpose of a zoo is for people to go for recreation.
On the other hand, I might consider eating in a Sukkah to be fun, but that is not the purpose.
So according to that definition: Is it something whose primary purpose is recreation?
There are programs around that provide mentors – where does she live?
Agreed! Amen!
Absan, you are absolutely right, but I don’t think that they realize what it looks like. Most of the time, it is hard for people to see how they look to others. People get used to doing things like that, so then they just think it is normal. This applies to many areas of life, but particularly to tznius, I think.
There are definitely many American seminary girls who would consider it not normal to have a facebook page, but my impression is that there are others who would.
I think it depends on a lot of factors: 1. How many years out of seminary is she? If she is 10 years out of seminary, it is very different than if she is in seminary now.
2. What seminary did she go to? There are a lot of different types of seminaries.
3. What is her background like? She might be very Yeshivish but not from such a Yeshivish background. In that case, you have to look at things differently.
Basically, you really have to look at the individual and not jump to conclusions. You have to see what she is about, where she is coming from and most importantly, the direction that she is going in. It is important to look at the whole picture, and not only the details, especially if you are talking about a grey area. You do want to make sure that she is not addicted to internet and that you have similar views on having internet in your future homes and the way in which you want to bring up your kids, etc.
GOQ:” My Torah says Vaheavta Lereacha Kamocha sadly many only apply this to Jews exactly like them.”
That may be true, but it has no connection to the topic at hand.
Sparkly: That’s a question that I have often wondered about because I too have had a very difficult life but never considered going off. But then I realized that you really can’t compare one person’s life to another. There are so,so, many factors that go into making us who we are. There is natural intelligence, how well we do in school, our families including every aspect of each person in our families, our natural personalities and traits, our communities, etc, etc. So it is really difficult to compare one person’s life to another and explain why one person turned out differently than another.
Here’s a thought: Whenever people hear about a kid-at-risk, they ask, “What went wrong? Why did he turn out like that?” Maybe, instead when a kid turns out fine, we should be asking, “Wow! What went right? Why did he turn out like that?”
I think one of the problems with our generation is that we take too much for granted. We assume that everything SHOULD go right and then we wonder when things dont – whether it’s kids-at-risk or the shidduch crisis.
Do you realize how many things have to fall into place in order for things to work out right? I am Frum today because of everything my parents did for me, everything my teachers did for me, my G-d given intelligence and ability to succeed in school, my natural passion for Truth and Spirituality, my G-d given personality traits, the wonderful community I grew up in, etc,etc.
Well, what if someone was missing one of those factors? What if he/she was stupid and felt like a failure at school? What if he couldn’t understand WHY he should be Frum because it had never been explained to him or because his ability to think clearly was blocked by learning disabilities and depression? What if he was abused or molested by the person or one or the people whom he trusted the most in the world -the person who was telling him to be Frum and molested or abused him in the name of Yiddishkeit?
A large percentage of kids-at-risk and OTD’s were molested. Someone in the field told me that %99 of girls-at-risk and 95% (maybe it was 90%) of boys-at-risk were molested. Those figures do sound a bit high, but this was said by someone very involved, so they can’t be completely off. Even if it’s 50%, that explains half of the cases.
Most of them are suffering from depression. Even though you might claim that you have also been depressed, there are many levels of depression, and one has no shaychus to the other. I am sure that you have found in your own life that the word “depressed” had very different meanings at different times of your life. So it is possible that there are people who have felt depressed in a way that you can’t even imagine.
In any case, it is great that you feel connected enough to Hashem to stay Frum, and hopefully others who do not feel that way will learn to feel that way.
Sparkly: |dovrosenbaum – and have lives which means going to work, getting an education, doing stuff for themselves like working out at the gym (taking classes at the gym if your referring to my gym), etc…..”
Sparkly, while I basically agree with you, that wasn’t dovrosenbaum’s point . He (or she, but I find it hard to believe that he is a she) was talking about whether or not women should learn, not about whether or not she should do other things.