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What’s the debate? I don’t think there was one, unless we start a debate about whether or not there was a debate.
Is he/she Jewish?
40. Anyone under 40 is not an older single, IMHO. There is no right age to get married, especially for girls who have no chiyuv to get married (although it’s a Mitzvah if they do), and therefore can get married when they feel like it.
On the other hand, boys have a chiyuv to get married as soon as they are mature enough, unless they are learning AND marriage will interfere with their learning. I think that even in that case, they are only allowed to push it off until 24, and nowadays, marriage is not necessarily an impediment to learning anyhow (although in some cases, it may be).
Conclusion: For boys it’s 25 and for girls it’s 40.
Person1:”But honestly what bothered me Joseph is that you made it ilegitemate to turn down a guy for a very legitemate reason.”
Even though I disagreed with Joseph’s statement l’maaseh, I would have to disagree with your statement as well. I wouldn’t say it’s a “very legitimate reason”. I think that Joseph was just pointing out that it is relatively unimportant, which is true. On the other hand, it is something that is important to some people, and that is legitimate.
On the one hand, we have a story about the Netziv giving mussar to his nephew for addressing an envelope incorrectly, and a story of another Gadol (maybe Rav Avraham Pam) giving mussar to his (grandson?) for his incorrect english. On the other hand, there is a famous story of a girl turning down a guy because he didn’t know how to drink coffee correctly and he drank it in a really weird way (I forget the details – maybe he ate the coffee beans and then drank the milk or something like that) and years later when her father found out that the guy ended up becoming a tremendous Talmid Chacham, he fainted.
Are you in Israel or the US? As someone who has dated extensively in both countries, in Israel (as Joseph wrote) it’s normal to meet at a hotel lobby. In the US, the guy always picked me up. But I agree with CTlawyer that it is much safer to meet the guy somewhere and not have him pick you up for a first date. I think this is particularly true for a SYAS shidduch. Since everything takes place over a computer, you really have no idea who the guy is and he has no one “to answer to”. It’s kind of like the difference between taking a private taxi vs. a taxi driver who works for a company. I always thought there was something a bit strange and dangerous about having a strange guy pick me up.
One thing that I personally find inappropriate is when the guy expects me to travel (to another city) to meet him. In my opinion, the guy should travel to meet the girl and it is setting a bad precedent for the relationship if she has to travel to meet him. The only exception to this rule would be if he lives in the NY/NJ area and she lives very far away (Chicago, Canada, etc.) That is my opinion; others will disagree.
But if you are meeting locally, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the two of you meeting at the dating location.
Person1- he didn’t mean it as a put-down. Adraba, he was saying that it’s a maaleh to not be able to write since it shows that one is more Yeshivish and has been focusing on Kodesh and not on limudei chol.
Since a person has a limited amount of time and energy, theoretically the more time and energy one puts into one thing, the less he has for other things. Sometimes people tell stories illustrating the lack of general knowledge of Gedolim in order to illustrate their total dedication to Torah.
That is one legitimate way of looking at things, but I think there may be other ways, and some people will davka tell stories illustrating the vast knowledge of Gedolim. There is probably some truth to both approaches.
Joseph, the other advantage to the pre-resume days was that people didn’t send or expect pictures.
On the other hand, the advantage to resumes sent via email is that you can be in touch with the shadchanim through email instead of by phone. It is much easier to say no to a computer than to a person!
Joseph, that may be true, but:
1. That depends how you define the word Yeshivish.
2.I don’t think that knowing basic english renders someone not-Yeshivish or not so Yeshivish.
3. If knowing basic english does render someone not-so-Yeshivish, then I guess that I am looking for someone who is not-so-Yeshivish.
4.In any case, I don’t know that I am davka looking for someone super-Yeshivish. But that probably depends how you define your terms.
Absan, Observant is not the same as Chassidish.
Joseph: “I wonder how people got married until shidduch resumes became popular about 12 or so years ago.”
Dating was actually easier then, I think. People didn’t just send you these random profiles that were floating around cyberspace. When someone made a suggestion, they actually knew the guy and knew you and were making the suggestion for a reason.
Person1 – I’m sure that none of my sisters’ resumes looked ANYTHING like mine or each others’ even when we were younger. None of us are AT ALL alike!
Joseph: I’m not judging his personality or Neshama. It’s something that bothers me. You can’t marry someone who does something that bothers you. Everyone has things that bother them and are reasons why they won’t marry someone. Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky Zatsal’s granddaughter didn’t want to go out with someone again because of something that bothered her (can’t remember what, but it was something superficial like the way he walked or something) and he thought that was a legitimate reason not to go out again.
Also, whether or not someone can write in his native language does show something about him. It doesn’t make him a bad person, but it does make him a different type than me. It is important to me that the guy I marry is intelligent and educated and intellectual and articulate.
@ Meno: He mentioned in another thread that he’s in elementary school.
Person1- How about 50 times at least?
Personally, I wouldn’t go out with someone who can’t spell or write. I once saw a reference from a guy who was looking for an intelligent girl. He spelled the word “intelligent” wrong!
Sparkly – does that mean they don’t have texting?
btw, does anyone know if there’s such a thing as getting a phone in Israel that has unlimited texting to the US but no Internet? If so, please let me know asap. Thanks!
Are you talking about the US or Israel? I thought there was no such thing as Kosher phones in the US? Does that mean it doesn’t have texting?
Joseph, additionally my issue is that in this thread you stated that the belief that the world is more than 6,000 years old is kefira, but in the other thread, according to the quote from Rav Aharon Feldman, Rav Elyashiv specifically stated that it is not kefira, but it should not be taught.
Joseph, if you have a source, I would be happy to see it. I’m not denying that he said it; I am just saying that I haven’t seen a source. Until I see a source, it is assur for me to believe it. Telling me to call him is not very helpful.
Joseph, the difference between the two is that I have a source for RHS and not for RNE. It is true that RNE can’t retract Rav Elyashiv’s position, but since in this case he was the source, so he CAN retract his statement (which would either mean that he is saying that he was mistaken regarding Rav Elyashiv’s position or that Rav Elyashiv retracted.) “Hapeh sheassar who hapeh she matir.” If the original statement came from RNE, he can retract his own statement.
Person1: “LU with the last paragraph excluded – you convinced me.”
Thanks! 🙂 Glad to hear that I can be convincing.
I just found this quote from Rav Hershel Schachter on the Kol Mevaser website:
29 – thanks!
Happygirlygirl- You’re in college? I thought you just graduated from high school?
Pardon my ignorance, but what is A&P?
Joseph, thanks. What is your source? And if this correct, why does Rav Aharon Feldman’s letter say something completely different?
Writersoul: I definitely agree with you that photos are not necessary. I think they are untznius, demeaning & inappropriate. I also think they are useless and self-defeating. A person’s photo is not the person. When people see photos, it makes them more likely to say no, and you just end up cutting yourself off from potential shidduchim who might have been fine with the way you look in real life.
I know that even as a girl, there have been times when I was reluctant to go out with a guy because of his photo, and sometime later, I met him in real life and saw that he didn’t even look like his picture, or else he did but it didn’t bother me in real life.
Shul is usually unimportant if you are a girl, although if you’re 19, I suppose your parents’ shul might mean something. If you’re an older girl, even your parents’ shul is unimportant.
Appearance: The only thing that might be necessary and appropriate is height. IMHO, eye and hair color are inappropriate to put on a resume. If the guy/girl really cares, they will ask, but do you want to marry someone who asks a question like that??!!!! I once received a resume of a guy who specified the hair and eye color he was looking for! Sick!!
References: Almost everyone calls references in my experience! There are some older singles who have no patience to and don’t, but I think that’s stupid and dangerous (esp. if you’re a girl).
DY: “popa_bar_abba – thats not true.”
“I agree. The date of birth changes so that the age doesn’t go up.”
DY, Sparkly was referring to PBA’s comment that 19 year old BY girls are all the same.
I think they are both right. Obviously, they are not all the same, but many of them are looking for the same things and have the same basic hashkafas and do the same things. This is not necessarily a negative statement, but it is one that is not likely to apply to someone who is either less Yeshivish or older.
DY and PBA: That is exactly why resumes of older single girls often write the age instead of the birthdate. I think this is fair because older single girls have a big disadvantage when it comes to age, and boys have ridiculous prejudices when it comes to age. These prejudices help neither them nor the girls they could be going out with, since many of these boys keep getting older and older and older without getting married. It has happened many times that a guy went out with a girl because he thought she was younger than she was (or he didn’t meet her through a shadchan so he didn’t know her age) and ended up liking her. Once he found out her age, he didn’t care about it anymore.
I am NOT recommending that anyone lie about his/her age. It is dishonest and a terrible start to a relationship that may end as soon as the guy/girl realizes you lied to him/her. What I am saying is that sometimes it’s better if the girl’s age is not the very FIRST thing he knows about her. He will call her references so he will probably find out her age before he goes out with her anyhow, but at least he will have had a chance to read her resume objectively first and maybe hear how wonderful she is before he verifies her age.
Sparkly – I wasn’t discussing whether or not it’s assur to smoke. I was responding to someone who said that we don’t have to know what the Gedolim say in order to know if it’s assur to smoke. That is not true – if it’s assur to smoke, it is because the Gedolim say so.
In any case, I think that your statement that it is flat-out assur to smoke may be incorrect. I know Rabbanim who say that it is muttar to smoke although it is possible that they would say that it is assur to smoke to the extent that one gets addicted. One should be careful about making such definitive statements unless one has proof to back one up.
Joseph, thanks. But I still would want some kind of proof. It may have been extensively reported, but it’s a chiddush to me. I’m not saying it’s not true, just that I would want some kind of proof.
I don’t consider Natan Slifkin to be a source especially since he is very nogeah b’davar.
And according to R’ Aharon Feldman’s letter that you brought, R’ Elyashiv did not say that.
The issue with Yaakov was that people were trying to console him for Yosef’s death and since Yosef wasn’t dead, he couldn’t be consoled for his death. With Parshas Nachamu, Hashem is not trying to console us for our “dead connection; rather He is consoling us by telling us that it is not dead. Likewise, if Yaakov Avinu had been told that Yosef was really not dead, that would have brought him consolation.
Rereading the letter from R’ Aharon Feldman, it sounds pretty clear that R’ Elyashiv did not consider this belief (that the world is over 6 thousand years old) to be kefira but rather that he held that it should not be taught.
Again, if anyone has any proofs/sources to the contrary, I’d be happy to see them.
I found these two statements on Natan Slifkin’s website:
According to this, it was Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita and not R’ Elyashiv Zatsal who MIGHT have made the statement about geirim. We do not even know for sure that R’Chaim said that. Also, the way it is phrased, it is not referring to someone who already converted and we are not saying his geirus is possul; rather it is saying that we should not convert him to begin with (but it might be possible that his geirus is accepted after the fact).
In terms of the other statement, he only says that R’ Elyashiv is reported as saying it.
These statements were made in an article in which Natan Slifkin was trying to show that the Gedolim do not believe the world is older than 6 thousand years, and yet, he didn’t have proof that R’ Elyashiv Zatsal & R’ Chaim Ybdl”c actually made those statements.
I’m not saying that they definitely didn’t; I am just saying that no one has brought proof yet that they did. And if Natan Slifkin who had an agenda to show that the Gedolim are against the belief that the world is more than 6 thousands years old couldn’t bring any proof that they actually said that, it makes me wonder if they in fact did. If anyone has any proofs/sources on that matter, please provide. Thanks!
“But- the fact that it is dangerous does not NECESSARILY render it a clear-cut Issur D’oraissa.”
You’re arguing with most Poskim that say if you’re addicted to smoking it’s an Issur D’oraissa!
You really need to work on your logic skills. My sentence and your sentence have absolutely no connection. I wrote nothing whatsoever about whether or not someone who is addicted to smoking is committing an Issur D’Oraissa.
1. I didn’t say anything about someone who is ADDICTED to smoking.
2. I was not discussing whether or not is an Issur D’Oraisah. All I said was that the we can’t assume it’s an Issur D’Oraissah just because it’s dangerous. If it is an Issur D’Oraissah, this is so because the poskim poskened that it is (if they in fact did so) and not because I decided that anything that is dangerous is an issur d’oraissah.
Joseph – I just read that other thread, and it does seem like there may be a contradiction here. I assume that the reason you are saying there is not a contradiction is that R’ Elyashiv Zatsal seemingly differentiated between the person and the belief. In other words, the idea is kefira, but the person who has it is not, so t/f if someone who wants to convert has this belief, he holds a belief that is kefira (even though he is not an apikorus), and t/f he is not allowed to convert.
Is that what you meant when you said that there is no contradiction?
That makes a certain amount of sense, but the problem I have with that is that I am not sure from R’ Aharon Feldman’s letter that that is what R’ Elyashiv meant. Maybe he is just saying that we are not allowed to state & teach that view, not that it is kefira. And that wouldn’t necessarily mean that a potential convert can’t be converted if he holds that way. Do we have proof that R’Elyashiv did in fact state that that view is kefira and that someone who has that view is not allowed to convert?
I am having a hard time understanding how a belief can be kefira but the person who has it is not an apikorus. That is why I wonder if that is really what he said.
Happygirlygirl – Mazel Tov!!! I am so happy for you! You deserve it! It should be with hatzlacha!
The thread was called, “Creating a Shidduch Resume” and it can be found in the Shidduchim section. I copied and pasted what I wrote there:
From my experience, there are basically two types of resumes.
1:This is the type used by 19 year old Bais Yaakov girls.This kind just lists the vital statistics. Most of the page is covered by two things: a) a list of siblings and facts about them (ages & schools if they are single, spouses & city of residence if married) b) A long list of references.
2: Most others use this type. This is for people who are not 19 years old and have something original to say about themselves, so they don’t have to fill the paper up with facts about their families.
In this type of reference, one would have a section on what she is looking for, and a section describing herself (She could also include both in one paragraph if she wants.) She should describe herself both in terms of hashkafa and personality and explain what she is looking for in terms of hashkafa and personality. She should also write what she does. Each of these things can be written under a separate heading or all together in one paragraph (as long as it’s not too long).
Most people also write the schools they went to (usually a separate heading, but it doesn’t have to be).
She should list 3 or 4 references. She should think carefully about who she lists as references. Just because someone knows you well and is a good friend does not necessarily make them a good reference.
On the top of the page, most people list their height and their birthday or age, but some people leave it out.