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Sparkly, I don’t think you realized the connotation of what you wrote. Coming after Happygirlygirl’s post, the implication is that Chassidish girls don’t go to college because they are lazy which is far from the truth!
Sparkly – I spent many, many, years in school (at least 10 years including college and several years post-college) in very intense programs (probably the equivalent of medical school, but I don’t want to go into details). Prior to that, I spent a few years taking care of my younger siblings and the housework.
So if anyone is qualified to answer, I am. It was WAY harder to take care of kids and run a household than it was to go to school!!!!
I think girls are taught that everything is expected of them and way too much pressure is put on them!
Person1 – I think they do, especially nowadays. I heard that today even in high school, they start teaching about dating and marriage because there are so many problems. They even have classes about recognizing signs of abuse.
I wonder if they teach boys as much about marriage? Maybe if they did, there would be less divorces.
Joseph – what do you disagree with? That it will ruin your Shalom Bayis?
Joseph: “lilmod, after that explanation, why your differentiation on this point for NY/NJ?”
Because NY/NJ is considered the center of the American Jewish world in general and the American Jewish dating world in particular. If someone lives in a far-out non-typical place, it makes sense to say that she should have to travel for dating. However, if the girl is already in NY/NJ, I don’t see why she should have to travel.
In Israel, if the boys lives in Yerushalayim and I live outside Yerushalayim, I would expect to travel to Yerushalayim, but if I lived in Yerushalayim and he lived outside of Yerushalayim, I would expect him to travel to Yerushalayim.
As I wrote in my original post, I am sure some will disagree with me. I realize the NY/NJ point in particular was subjective, but that is how I feel.
Person1: “And now I’ve calm down and am uncomfortable to read the angry words. I’m Sure you meant well but I just think you’re too hard on the guys.”
I’m sorry if I sounded like I was being too hard on the guys. Here’s where I was coming from: I have been told a few times (not too many Baruch Hashem) that if I wanted to go out with a specific boy, I had to travel to meet him, because there are so many boys in New York, why would he be willing to travel an hour and a half to go out with you?
I found that extremely offensive. I would hope that a guy who is going out with me is going out with me because he wants to go out with ME in particular, and he doesn’t just think that all girls are the same and there’s millions of them and therefore he should choose his dates based on geography.
Personally, I would be nervous about going out with a guy who is not willing to travel an hour and a half to meet me. It’s not like I was living somewhere random and far out. And it’s also not like I had a car and could travel so easily.
Again, I’m talking about a first date and a relatively small distance. I apologize if that wasn’t clear.
I just don’t like the way some people talk as though girls should be thankful that someone wants to go out with them and they have to be willing to do everything!
Person1: 1. I was referring to the first date only. I may have forgotten to mention that. If so, I apologize. I had meant to mention that.
2. Regarding what you wrote: “Does that mean my attitude is “there are so many girls to date, I don’t need to travel in order to date.””
When I wrote about that attitude, I was thinking of a specific person I know (a mother of boys) who TOLD me that she would not have her boys travel an hour and a half (maybe it’s two hours- not sure) from Queens to Lakewood because there are so many girls in NY, why should they have to travel. She told me that I have to be willing to travel to meet any boy that I go out with for the same reason. I don’t agree. I was very offended at being told that.I also thought it was spoiling her boys for her to feed them with that attitude. That is what my comment was in response to (although I guess you couldn’t have known that!). If you thought I meant something different, I apologize.
3. I didn’t mean points 1,2. or 3 to be taken as “proof”. I had specifically written that others may disagree with me. We are not talking about the type of things that have clear answers. This is my opinion. I feel very strongly about it, but it’s not something I can PROVE. The most I can do is to bring supports. I think that is true of most things that have to do with differences between men and women (except of course for those things that are clearly listed in the Torah, of which there are not very many).
Joseph – Actually, if that’s his reason, it would make me very nervous. I would react the same way I did when I checked out a divorced guy with several kids and was told that he learns full-time. When I asked how he supports his kids, I was told that he doesn’t because he is learning.
I think learning is very important, BUT not at the expense of fulfilling one’s obligations to one’s family or potential family. I would want to marry someone who loves learning but is willing to close his sefarim when necessary to fulfill his obligations to others around him, as the Gedolim always do.
If he can take time away from learning to go on a date, he can also take time to travel. If he is unwilling to do so, that would be a bright red flag to me!!
Joseph: “5,000 years of history and traditional roles of men and women.”
That’s why the guy has to pick up the girl…
I hadn’t read Charlie’s post so I didn’t realize he was talking about guest husbands. I think the problem with that is that it’s not tznius since the hostess is most likely the main person in the kitchen even if her husband helps.
I agree with you that egalitarianism is not Jewish, but I do think that men should help in the kitchen, and in general. Exactly how things are divided depends on the couple and what works for them, and there is no right or wrong way.
I have found that in most homes, the women and girls serve and the men and boys clear.
Hatzlacha Happygirlygirl! I’m so happy for you!
7. Was he a president?
Absan: “l.u. you are over powering in every thread..good job”
Is that a compliment or an insult?
This is what happens when you live by yourself, work from home, and don’t have such a specific schedule I guess.
Iacisrmma – they are kadosh; does it follow that the place they are buried is kadosh?
For that matter, all yidden are Kadosh, so any place where there are Yidden should be considered Kadosh.
The Frumguy – so we do see though that you can have kedusha in Chu”l which seemed to be your original objection, as you wrote, “How can they really apply the same term to Chutz La’aretz where our Chochamim have decreed Tum’ah?”
But we still don’t have an answer regarding whether or not Kivrei Tzaddikim can be called Mekomos Hakedoshim. I do agree that it sounds funny to call a place in chu”l a makom kadosh, but that is just my feeling and I don’t know if it’s true or not.
Joseph, it’s the guy’s job to pick up the girl. It has to do with the differences between a guy and a girl in a relationship, and it’s not good for a relationship to do things differently. Read “Men are from Mars; women are from Venus.” I don’t think he discusses that specifically, but I think he talks about similar things.
A girl I know asked a Rav about travelling for Shidduchim and she was told that girls aren’t supposed to travel for shidduchim. The guy is the one who is missing his rib, and he needs to find it. It’s not good for guys if they have the attitude that “there are so many girls to date, I don’t need to travel in order to date.” He has to realize that the girl is worth travelling for. If he doesn’t realize that, then he is not someone I want to go out with.
Joseph, he said it’s worse for men!!! He had much stronger warnings for men!!! That’s cuz it will cause more of a problem for a man’s shalom bayis if he reads the women’s one. For women, he just gave them a bracha if they don’t read it. That’s okay – I’ve gotten brachos from more chashuve people in my life.
Joseph – who says?
I was talking about the US. The women dress tzniusly so it wouldn’t be a problem if men showed up. I had thought Frum men also go to the beach during off-seasons or at night, but maybe I was wrong about that. The only time I remember going was for Tashlich on Erev Yom Kippur. I went with a family including the husband, and I think there were only Frum people there.
Probably, goyim wouldn’t go to the beach when there is no lifeguard, so maybe that’s how Frum people are able to go.
Absan, she said not a redhead and not Jewish!
Sparkly – It has nothing to do with laziness and that certainly was not Happygirlygirl’s point. Someone who is lazy would not get married at 18 and have a bunch of kids instead of going to college!!! You have to be extremely unlazy and hard-working to get married at 18 and have a bunch of kids!! On the other hand, a lazy person might ostensibly decide to go to college instead of getting married and raising kids!!
Anyhow, they don’t go to college because there are hashkafa problems with going to college and because they think that mothers are supposed to take care of their kids instead of going out to work and leaving the kids with babysitters.
I was very offended by your post even though I’m not Chassidish. Why is it necessary to insult people who do things differently than you?
Charliehall – Rav Moshe Feinstein has a Teshuva where he speaks very harshly against people who don’t learn in Kollel because they don’t want to take money to enable them to learn.
Meno, are you a man or a lady? Just curious.
PBA- what’s the difference?
6. Did he live in America?
What’s the answer to: Was he a politician?
Joseph – lol, I was waiting for someone to say that! I’m not exactly the kind of person you can put a book in front of and tell me not to read…
Sparkly, I don’t know if you saw my post on the other thread. I had mentioned a book written by a Modern Orthodox guy on the topic of college and you had asked me to get you the info. I copied and pasted my response here:
Sparkly and whoever else is interested: I just did a Google search and I found the book on Amazon.
I was going to post the link, but I think the moderators don’t let. The book is: “Brainwashed – how Universities indoctrinate America’s Youth” by Ben Shapiro. You can find it on Amazon.com
I never read it, but it looks interesting and like something that anyone attending or thinking of attending college should read.
Sparkly – true, but it does have a lot of Kefira.
Meno – I hope that was a joke. Halacha doesn’t change just because you decide to call yourself MO.
I agree with Joseph for the most part. Except that I am under the impression that there are very Frum people who go to the beach during certain seasons or times of day when there is no pritzus. So there may be times when it’s okay. I do remember going once for Tashlich and it was fine.
Absan, how do you know who is a guy and who is a girl?
Everyone agreed that it was okay to meet at a hotel, and that was the main issue.
In terms of clothes, I don’t think it makes much of a difference as long as you aren’t wearing denim and sneakers. But if someone normally wears Shabbos clothes, she shouldn’t think that she is supposed to wear weekday clothes just because he is not picking her up. And if someone is asking already, I think it’s preferable to wear Shabbos clothes on a date.
That can’t be the reason because that’s what happens when I click on my own username and I never had another username.
I guess I’m a figment of my own imagination.
4. Is he alive?
From the above thread – Brooklyn yenta: “it’s not an age, it’s an attitude. there are those that are old at 21, and those that are young at 30.”
I agree with that!
Meno, that did occur to me. I didn’t agree with the posters who thought that the teenage post-high school girls didn’t belong, but there is a big difference between a post-high school girl and an elementary school boy.
I’m not sure it’s so appropriate for an elementary school boy to be here.
Wolf – he’s a kid, give him a break. He wrote somewhere that he’s in elementary school
Stop supporting Arab terrorists
Rav Sholom Arush has a book for women on Sholom Bayis and a book for men on Sholom Bayis. In the introduction to each book, he warns the opposite gender not to read the book, but the warning to men is MUCH STRONGER!! In the men’s book, I think he just gives a bracha to women who don’t read it, and in the women’s book, he gives a REALLY strong warning to men not to read it.
Basically, the obligations of a woman to her husband are for HER; they are not meant for him to hold over her head. He has to worry about his obligations to her, not her obligations to him!
Excellence: “I must remind myself not to judge.”
You don’t seem to be doing such a good job since your post sounds very judgmental. Tell you what, let’s make a deal: You won’t be judgmental of the communities in which getting married at 18 is considered ideal (as the Torah says) and we won’t be judgmental of the way things are done in Sydney.
Why do people have such a hard time accepting the fact that different communities do things differently?
And anti-zionism has nothing to do with the PA. Some would say the opposite!
A Beis Medrash (even in Chutz L’Aretz) is a Makom Kadosh.
Eretz Yisrael (especially Kedushas Eretz Yisrael) has nothing to do with zionism. It is zionistic to think that it does!
Wear whatever you would normally wear on a first date, which should generally be Shabbos clothes. You don’t have to dress like your picture – for example, if you were wearing chasuna clothes in the wedding, you don’t have to wear chasuna clothes to the date.
How’s the job going Girlygirl? Did you start yet?