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This is a really old book and I haven’t seen it in YEARS, but there was an excellent book I read as a kid called “The family nobody wanted.”.
It was a true story about a religious family (so no pritzus) who couldn’t have kids so they decided to adopt a kid. He then wanted a brother, so they adopted another kid. That kid wasn’t the same age as him, so they decided to adopt another kid… well read the rest of the book. Good old-fashioned values and good lessons and interesting reading, from what I recall.
The Anne of Green Gables series is good and relatively kosher (to the extent that one call a goyish book kosher), and might be something you’d like, Sparkly. I know a Rebbetzin who used to read it.
yekke2: “Sparkly – I’m sure you wrote above that a boy can still be frum even if he talks to girls, and that there is nothing wrong with male/female social interaction?”
I heard a story about a professor who taught something that contradicted something he had taught 50 years before. When that was pointed out to him, he said, “Good. So I’m a growing person, and I don’t remain stuck where I was 50 years ago.”
Maybe Sparkly doesn’t believe in standing still and she has grown since she wrote the last post.
(yekke2, please take this post the way it is meant and not as a criticism/contradiction to your post)
NE: I didn’t think there was. That was my point. I just wanted to make sure that Sparkly realized that. Since she hasn’t said anything, I assume she does, so great, “let’s talk about books”.
Sparkly – Dr. Seuss is very good quality and kosher. I saw my newly-married neighbor at the public library taking out Dr. Seuss books. I asked who they were for (she didn’t have kids yet). She said they were for herself!
Yekke2 – You’re right, but I was assuming that it wasn’t, and that in the remote possibility that it was, he would apologize. But this conversation sounds like it’s about to go the way that many do, so I’m not sure it should be continued…
Sparkly: Good for you for being makpid on shmiras Haayin and trying to avoid it! I had forgotten about that issue – sometimes a book might be okay, but they stick inappropriate pictures on the cover, even though they are unrelated to the content.
The problem is that there can be different printings of the same book. So someone might recommend a book thinking it’s fine, and then it will turn out that the copy in your library has an inappropriate picture.
I just remembered that my friend had a listing of books and how kosher they are. It was put out by Frum people. I can try to find out how you get ahold of it, bli neder.
Meno: “Isn’t Torah everything?”
Good point.
Sparkly – when I worked in a boys’ school, I was asked by the (female) principal to wear my hair back. I think the Rebbeim had an issue with it, and my hair is nowhere near my waist.
NE: Sparkly thinks your comments were about her. This was probably not the case, but since she thinks so, please just let her know that was not the case. If it was the case, please apologize. Thank you.
Please don’t take offense at my comment. If you are offended, please let me know.
I’m looking at this thread and realizing it will be really hard for anyone to follow, since many posters commented before earlier comments were posted, so it is difficult to know who is responding to who.
I hope everyone is able to figure it out!
Sparkly – I don’t know; it didn’t sound like it to me. Let’s ask him:
NeutiquamErro: Was your comment about Sparkly?
Sparkly – You’re welcome! And thanks for the positive feedback!!! Appreciation is nice! 🙂
Hatzlacha in all your endeavors!
When the guys do come back, you might want to think of one gvul to set for yourself as a New Year’s Resolution. Make sure it is small and easy enough that you can keep to it.
That’s just a suggestion – do what you feel is best for you.
Hatzlacha with the new semester!
Sparkly, I am not sure if you should be reading goyish books altogether, and I am certainly not giving a haskama to the reading of goyish books, so my words should NOT be taken that way, BUT if you do, and if you want to try to find books that are less treif, you would be better off in general sticking to older books.
You should try to avoid books written after 1990 (or maybe even a bit earlier). There are cases where the same author wrote books in the 1970’s that were relatively not as treif as most goyish books, so people assumed their later books were also okay and found out too late that the later books were completely treif!! So don’t make assumptions about authors.
Shkoyach Sparkly on caring enough about the kashrus of what you read to start a thread about it!!!!
DY: [?? ????? ????? ??”
“??? ??????] ??? ??? ?????? ??????,
Thanks DY for actually bringing the quote from the source! If that’s his loshon, then it certainly seems to prove the point that some of us were trying to make from the get-go, which is that we are supposed to take common courtesy into account (whether or not it is appropriate to use the word “chivalry”)
Coffee Addict – That may very well be the reason for the heter, but I would delete the words (something common in Israel) as this may imply Motzi Shem Ra on both Am Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael.
Having lived in EY for many years, I actually have never seen that. If anyone is bothered by a lady walking in front of him, he can move to the side, and wait till all the women get on.
Personally, I usually try to move to the side and wait for the men to go on, so I am not walking in front of them. Once you are on the bus though, it can be impossible to avoid sometimes.
Sparkly – I don’t think his comment was meant to be about you in particular, although I may have missed something.
Joseph, thank you very much! Do you know if Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach himself has a Teshuva on it?
Also, just wondering, have you ever asked your Rabbanim about it? If so, what did they say?
Abba_S: Thanks for the explanation. I thought it was a joke.
Chareidi Modern Orthodox – you’re referring to comments from months ago. Someone restarted a new question on an old thread (am wondering why?)
Coffee Addict: “The chabad.org website brought
Up until that point, the rule was “men first.” Adam, as we all know, was created before Eve. Noah and his sons entered the ark first, followed by their wives — at least that’s the order they’re listed in Genesis 7:13 (a “sinking ship” situation in the reverse, if you will). When Jacob traveled with his family, the males rode up front and the womenfolk behind them (Genesis 31:17) while Esau placed the women before the men.”
Not sure what your point is.
Happygirlygirl – It’s great that you are apologizing in case you hurt anyone. I actually don’t remember your ever saying anything that could be interpreted as offensive – in fact, I think that you have always been very sweet, friendly, and polite.
I do think though that some might find it offensive to be told that they shouldn’t be offended by things that posters write. I was a TEENY bit offended by that actually. And I don’t agree that it means that someone has an issue if they are offended. The people posting are real people, and it is always upsetting to be insulted by anyone.
Hope you are not offended by my comments. :”
Sam2 – really? Do you know for sure that the ORIGINAL ORIGIN is christian and not Jewish? I’m just curious, because I had thought it was of Jewish origin, but I really have no clue.
In any case, it’s just a mashal, and not even a real mashal. In a real mashal, every word is true and represents something real. For example, in a mashal about a king, the nimshal will tell us that there really is a king, but the King is really Hashem and not a flesh and blood king. In this “mashal”, I don’t think there is an exact parallel/nimshal. I think it is just meant as a nice idea to teach us something, which it succeeds in doing (although perhaps, if it really is of christian origin, it should not be used).
The basic idea is that we create our own Gan Eden or Gehinnom through our own actions.
The idea from Rav Avigdor Miller quoted by iacisrmma above is a more precise definition of Gan Eden, since Gan Eden really is about learning Torah and getting close to Hashem.
It is true in this world as well. You can have Gan Eden in Olam Hazeh if you appreciate Limud Torah and doing Mitzvos. I learned that that is why it is called Olam Haba (the world that IS coming), since we already start creating and experiencing it in THIS world when we learn Torah, do Mitzvos and create a relationship with Hashem. (I think the source might be the Maharal).
Sparkly: “can you say hi to a guy that your family friends with at college?”
Sparkly, as I wrote in my above response to yekke2, it is best to find someone (preferably a female) to discuss these issues with in person since they are not “yes and no”, “black and white” issues, and they do involve a discussion and not a yes or no answer.
If you don’t have someone to discuss it with, my personal opinion is that you should not refrain from ever speaking to members of the other gender (saying hello to a family friend is appropriate), BUT you should try to work on establishing more boundaries for yourself (this could be a matter of not being friends with guys who are not shomer negiah, or not having guys in your apartment, for examples).
That’s just my opinion – take it or leave it.
Yekke2 : “We’ve already established that Sparkly doesn’t have a legitimate Rabbi.”
No, we only established that he wasn’t legitimate if he really said that it’s okay to not be shomer negiah, and she acknowledged that he hadn’t really said that.
I do agree in general that one should use caution when telling someone to “ask their Rabbi” when they are seeking advice, since you don’t know who their Rabbi is. That is why I usually don’t fall back on that response.
In this case, though, I thought it was the appropriate response, since: a) I do have the impression (although I can’t be sure) that Sparkly does have a Rabbi who is both legit and good for her right now, and b) this is the kind of question that can’t really be answered online, and it would be too easy for someone to misunderstand the answer and misapply it. It is the type of question that really needs to be discussed in person since it is part of a much larger and personal issue. Truthfully, a Rebbetzin might be a better option, if she has one, since people do have to exercise great caution when discussing these types of issues with members of the opposite gender. I have been hearing too many horror stories lately.
“Yeah, but not “guys who are like that”, so maybe she wants to know if a guy is like that, but is a “family friend”, can she say hello.”
If that were the case, it should have been included in the question.
Coffee Addict:
1. Not insulted at all. I don’t mind being told that I am as lomdish as a boy, especially since it’s true :), as long as you keep in mind that even though I can learn like a boy, I’m as sensitive as a girl (actually much more than most).
2. I wasn’t saying that the chabad.org website was accurate; I just thought it was cute that that is what I came up with.
3. I didn’t listen to the shiur on the chabad.org website, but from the quote, it doesn’t sound like it was talking about ladies walking in front of men – it was talking about the general concept of “ladies first”.
Joseph: “Furthermore, one cannot be meikel on an issue that S”A assurs simply because there is an opinion out there, even a valid one, that isn’t from his rebbi or posek, being meikel on an issue. Even if someone else will be insulted that you didn’t latch on to the kulah and you instead followed the halacha as the Shulchan Aruch paskens and as your rebbeim pasken.”
Maskim. However, I was under the impression that Rav Shlomo Zalman says it’s muttar, and personally, I would not consider him “to be an opinion out there.”
It’s quite possible that I misunderstood what he wrote – I didn’t see it inside; I was simply quoting from what I understood from Rav Frand’s shiur.
I would be happy to see it. Do you know where I can find it? What’s the TE?
In any case, I think that it is very important that before a guy goes out, he asks his Rav what he should do, since either way, he is in danger of being over on a halacha. If he is told to go in front of the girl, he should make sure to find a way to do it that won’t offend her, such as by explaining to her why he is doing so.
Meno: “That’s a good point. Maybe it would make sense to put it on the resume so as not to waste anyone’s time with even a first date. If someone is makpid on a picture then certainly they should be makpid on a chulent recipe.”
A shadchan emailed me today asking if she could send my picture to a guy she wants to set me up with. I told her that I am against having pictures sent. She told me that he won’t go out with me if I don’t send it. So I emailed her back that I wouldn’t want to go out with a guy who insists on seeing a picture before he will go out. So she emailed back that he respects that and wants to go out with me anyhow.
Good thing he didn’t ask if I know how to make chulent!
Tachlis, if a guy thinks it’s a problem to let the girl go first, maybe he should at least make sure she realizes that it’s out of respect for her that he is going first.
When I googled it, this is what I found: “According to Chabad.org, a site that reports on Judaism and the Torah, the “ladies first” rule is a very old tradition. The story goes that when Moses was instructed to inform the people of Israel about the Torah, he was told to “speak to the house of Jacob, and tell the sons of Israel.” Since the house of Jacob appears first in the instructions, and it refers to women, the theory follows that Moses had to speak first with the ladies. Probably a smart political move.”
I don’t know if this true or not, but it was certainly an interesting svara.
bump – Sparkly, where are you?
and no, I am not a zionist!
Yehudayon: “Nefesh B’Nefesh will have to expand their staff.”
Yehudayona, I like that response. That should happen either way. Yidden belong in Eretz Yisrael!
Golfer – I didn’t get that either. Maybe Absan meant “not a Sqarer chusid”. Maybe she didn’t want to say who the real Rebbe or Rav in the story was.
Mammele – Thank you for sticking up for me!
Health – I appreciate the fact that you do seem to be making an effort to respond more politely to my posts.
WinnieThepooh – thanks!
Meno – but you have to know if she knows how to make chulent so you can decide if there should be a second date.
Coffee Addict – good to know it’s possible to have a good first date!
MA – Wow you spent 3 months on dating her before proposing and becoming engaged? That’s pretty long
Are you being sarcastic? I hope so. Personally, I can’t imagine getting engaged in less than 2 months, although many do, and that’s great if it works for them!
I wasn’t talking about an objective maaleh. I meant it’s a maaleh for me.
This wasn’t my original point, but I do think it’s a problem when guys won’t go out with girls their own age or even a few years younger then them (in some cases, they will only go out with girls who are 10 or 20 years younger because they only want someone who is under 40 regardless of their own age). It comes from their wanting to have children, which is a maaleh, but I still don’t think they should be so picky about age. The result is that most of the time, they keep getting older without getting married, so that doesn’t really help them to have children. It’s their choice, but it does bother me.
There are all these campaigns to get guys in their 20’s to go out with older girls, but I don’t think anyone has started a campaign to get guys in their 40’s to go out with girls in their age range.
Coffee addict:
1. It is possible that there are other opinions, but in the context of the original discussion and the reason I brought in Rav Frand’s shiur in the first place, it is irrelevant if there are other opinions.
2. When someone quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach as saying something is muttar, you can’t just keep saying that YOU think it’s assur. If you know of another opinion that it is assur, please bring it.
3. Do you know of another opinion? If so, I would be happy to hear of it.
4. This is not a complete raayah, but I would imagine that if there is another opinion that the mainstream Litvish American world holds of, Rav Frand would have brought it. From listening to his shiur, it does sound like Rav Frand thinks this is the only opinion or at least the only one people should be listening to.
5. L’maaseh, let’s say there is another opinion. I don’t know if you are a boy or a girl, but let’s say you are a boy and you are on a date. Let’s say you have reason to believe the girl will be insulted if you walk ahead of her, and you know that you can be “somech” on Rav Shlomo Zalman and let her walk first. Don’t you think you should do so? If you walk ahead of her you will be insulting her and you can let her walk ahead of you without doing something “assur” since you can be “somech” on Rav Shlomo Zalman. Considering the fact that most people rely on Rav Shlomo Zalman for many things, why should you davka choose a more machmir opinion when someone’s feelings are at stake?
6. Re R’ Orlofsky’s shiur: you hadn’t yet mentioned it when I originally posted about Rav Frand’s shiur
7. I’m not sure what R’ Orlofsky’s shiur has to do with this topic. I listened to it many years ago, but as I recall it was about not talking to boys and about being shomer negiah. What does that have to do with a boy letting his date go ahead of him?
8. I always shake women’s hands, but I never shake men’s hands. Most people are fine with it when you explain it’s for Religious reasons. Once in Israel, I was with a girl who did shake a not-Frum Israeli man’s hand when he put out his hand because she thought she was supposed to halachically in order not to embarrass him. He responded by saying, “Oh, I thought you were Religious.” Apparently, he was testing her. I wouldn’t shake hands with men anyhow, but I do think that anyone who thinks they should in order not to embarrass the person should think carefully about it because Israelis often do know better and t/f may be testing them.
edited
“Wearing CZ is no more a false representation to the world as being a diamond than wearing a diamond is a false representation to the world as being a CZ.”
Joseph, good answer.
It’s only a false representation if you think it’s a maaleh to spend money on diamonds, and you are trying to prove you have that “maaleh” when you don’t. Some people think it’s a “maaleh” to spend less money.
Sparkly – when I checked it out on amazon.com, it was very cheap – I don’t remember the exact price, but I think it was only a few dollars (maybe $8)
“This makes no sense, because you could apply the same thing to a divorced guy!”
That’s true, at least to some extent. There are some divorced guys whom that applies to, especially if they had a lot of kids from their first marriage. But there are also many divorced guys with kids who are still very anxious to have more kids since the kids from the first marriage usually don’t live with them. So it does apply to widowers more often than divorced guys.
“These assumptions make no sense. Either a person can have kids or they can’t. Any woman can be tested if they are still able to have children. I personally would go out with s/o my age, if they can prove they can have children!”
Whether or not it makes sense, the reality is that many guys do not want to date girls over a certain age. I KNOW this for a fact, since I’m in the parsha. I’m not sure why you need a test to know if you can have more kids, but I also am not sure that I want to continue this discussion.
Also, the fact is statistically, that the younger someone is, the more likely it is that she will have kids, so that is why guys prefer to go out with younger girls. I have a lot of issues with that approach, but the fact is that it is common, and it doesn’t look like I will be able to change it that fast.
But, Boruch Hashem, not everyone thinks like that, and there are even guys who were never married before who don’t.
Joseph: “The gehenom both of you described sounds pretty easy on reshaim like Hitler and Arafat.”
Not so sure about that. Hard as it is to believe, they have Neshamas too, and in the World of Truth, their Neshamas also suffer when they realize how they have destroyed themselves.
It doesn’t sound so bad because we don’t understand what it means for a Neshama to suffer at the realization of how it has distanced itself from its Source (Hashem), but it is much worse than all of the suffering in this world put together (even worse than having a fly in your ear, and that is pretty bad!). That’s why we want to try to avoid it!
In any case, I wonder if there is a difference between the type of punishment given to complete reshaim who have no cheilik in olam haba and the type given to those people who require a tikkun before receiving their reward.
However you slice it, every type of Gehinom is really bad and something to be avoided at all costs!!!
Wolf: No one “owes” anyone a gift (if they do, it’s not a gift).
True. I like that line!
Dy – 🙂
Thanks DY!!! I appreciate that!
I’ll let you know bli neder after/if it ever happens! (although, if it ever happens, I probably won’t be on here anymore, so I won’t be able to).
zahavasdad- the stories you are talking about have nothing to do with the inyan here. I never heard of the stories you are quoting and no one was discussing those stories. No one mentioned any specific quotes from the Gedolim. What was being discussed was the fact that the Gedolim have said that Internet use should be limited and therefore someone started a thread in the Coffee Room talking about how he wants to follow the words of the Gedolim and limit his Internet use. Many posters agreed and were encouraging each other.
Then someone else got on attacking the Gedolim for being against Internet use as well as the posters in the Coffee Room for trying to live up to the words of the Gedolim. Then some other posters decided to join him in his attacks on the Gedolim.
Again, no one had brought any specific quotes from the Gedolim, and the issue being discussed was not whether or not the Gedolim were being quoted correctly.
The issue was that some people felt that they have a right to attack what the Gedolim say (they themselves were claiming that the Gedolim said these things – they weren’t arguing that the Gedolim did not really say these things).