Lilmod Ulelamaid

“kollel in EY is definitely not the easy way out!!

Going with the herd is certainly the easy way out. Especially in EY where the government supports the learners, and the monetary expectations are much lower, it is easier to be in Kollel than to fight the tide, leave Kollel (with all of the issues with the Army that come along with that choice) and then find a job in a society that doesn’t want to employ Charaidim. I agree with Joseph on this one, that it is much easier to be a Yeraim Jew outside of the state of Israel.”

Sorry, but I have to correct you on this one. There are many misperceptions about what goes on in EY, and about what’s involved in deciding between Kollel and army. I have lived in EY for many years and am very familiar with the issues and the challenges involved in these decisions. I know from personal family experience how DIFFICULT it is to decide to defer the army to go to Yeshiva. I have a family member who was was not able to live up to the challenge and gave in to the pressure from his mother who was not able to deal with the financial challenges involved in deferring army service.

It is very DIFFICULT to live in EY and not go to the army. If you don’t go to the army, you lose out on many rights and much financial aid from the government. You do not make any money while you are learning, and you can’t go to work. You are basically doomed to a life-long poverty.

If you do go the army, the army supports you while you are doing your army service. In some cases, they even give you more than enough spending money so that you can save it to pay for college afterwards (as one of my family members did). In many cases, they train you in a profession for free, and as soon as you finish your army training, you can get a top job in your field (as another family member did). I believe that there are also many other benefits that one who goes to the army gets.

Deferring army to go to Yeshiva is not going against the tide! It is very hard to live in a country like Israel which is constantly at war and where going to the army is the norm and so much is dependent on going to the army, and not go to the army! Anyone who thinks that it is easy knows nothing about the realities of living in EY today!

I had a brother who could have been a Rosh Yeshiva. He was very Frum and very into learning. He wanted to learn, but my mother pressured him to go to the army because she was worried about money, and his Dati Leumi Rosh Yeshiva told him to go (after promising me that he would tell him not to go). He thought he had to listen to his Rav, so he went to the army, and he is now completely chiloni. He was supported by the government while he was in the army being taught computer programming for free. He got a great job as soon as he finished the army before he even started college. He makes a lot of money today.

I have a sister who did sheirut leumi. She was supported by the government and given enough money to help her pay for college. She went to college and got a great job and now makes a lot of money, but is not so Frum (depending on how you define Frum -see previous threads – basically, she does not completely keep halacha).

I have friends whose husbands are big masmidim and Talmidei chachamim and they live on almost nothing but bitachon and are extremely “mistapek b’muat.” Even with being “mistapek b’muat” to an extreme that you can’t imagine, they have to have a lot of bitachon every month that they will make it through the month somehow.

Meanwhile, I see that people like my siblings are rolling in money.

So don’t try to tell me that Kollel is the easy way out!!!

I do agree though that someone who learns has more Olam Hazeh, but I do not agree that it is the easy way out!!

GAW: “The parents or the children? I get the children not following the rules, but I’m uncertain why the parents have rules (not related to their conduct in school). Your example of covering hair: If her Rov said she doesn’t have to (my understanding is that is not uncommon), what does the school care?”

The extent to which the schools should look at the parents (if they should look at them at all) is a complex issue. If a kid is starting high school and the kid is herself a great kid who is willing to comply with the school’s standards, then in most cases, it would probably make sense to accept the kid even if the family doesn’t comply by the school’s standards (although it might not be simple in high school either)

However, I was speaking of elementary school, although that might not have been clear. Most kids start elementary school at around 5. At that age, it’s the family that counts, since the kid is not independent of his family yet. I think you would have a hard time finding a family in which the mother doesn’t dress tzniusly, but the 5 year old kid does. (and if you found such a kid, I’d be a little nervous..)

When a kid is 5 years, you have to assume that he is a product of his home. Additionally, the other kids in the class are going to be going over to their friends’ houses, and their friends’ parents will be their role models on some level, and they will be exposed to the things in their friends’ houses. So yes, the kids’ parents have to be in the same general ballpark as the other kids’ parents in the school.

Personally, I was very happy when this lady told me that a certain school didn’t accept her kids, because I have a relative who will be attending that school. It is a somewhat more modern school and not a Bais Yaakov. On the one hand, I am happy that my relative is not going somewhere much more Yeshivish than her family because I don’t think it would be good for her, but on the other hand, I am glad that this school was Frum enough to not accept the children of a lady who looked like this one did. My relative’s mother does not dress or act that way; she should not be exposed to a parent body like that.

Re: divorced women covering their hair. I don’t know what most Rabbanim say. I am under the impression that most divorced women do cover their hair, or at least the ones who are on a certain religious level.I think it is generally done for the chinuch of the kids whether or not it is necessary according to strict halacha. I certainly think it is reasonable for a school to have such a standard. The school has a right to say, “if you want to send your child to our school, do x,y,z. If not, send him elsewhere.” The parent has the choice.

In terms of this lady, I don’t think the only issue was her uncovered hair. She was dressed very untzniusly and the way she was acting was untznius and inappropriate as well. I was quite relieved that she is not going to be my relative’s role model.

Little Froggie, thanks so much for your support! “When you state something which should be obvious, sensible, sometimes ‘the truth hurts’. And that causes some to respond, defend their positions.” I think you are right about that. I think what upsets me in particular is when other posters are either not paying attention to every post or are not shrewd enough to catch insinuations and don’t even realize when someone is being attacked, and mistake the attacked for the attacker.

But again, thanks for your support!

Happygirlygirl – that is a really strange thing to say.

btw, generally speaking, when someone says “no offence” it implies that they must have been saying something offensive.

Why did you choose Joseph? Is it your real name?

Joseph was my first choice – j.j.

Comlink-x: they sold Yosef because they thought it was the right thing to do. They made a mistake in that, as we know from Chazal. Once they sold him (thinking it was the right thing to do), they lied about it. Chazal tell us that that they made a mistake in selling Yosef. I am not aware that they tell us that the Shevatim made a mistake in lying about it (It could be that they do, but you would need to find a source). I think it’s unlikely that they would have made a mistake about the halacha regarding lying in such a circumstance. This is a separate issue from Mechiras Yosef. There are two issues here:

1. The selling of Yosef

2. If selling Yosef was the right thing to do (as they assumed), would lying about it be okay?

Basically, whether or not selling Yosef was really the right thing to do in the first place, their psak halacha about lying had to do with lying when you did something RIGHT (since they had thought they did something right). So even if it was wrong, their Psak Halacha was based on what one should do when he has done the right thing, so we can learn from it regarding whether or not one should lie when he HAS acted correctly.

What’s the reason to be nice only to older males?

Yeah, what is that about?

Happygirlygirl – that being said, you should definitely follow what your Rabbanim tell you to do.

Happygirlygirl- I guess that is why I teach Halacha and not you.

Sorry, comlink-x, by tafkid, I mean “role”. In this case, I mean her role as a wife. I don’t really mean “life purpose” because your “life purpose” can involve more than your role as a wife.

Comlink – x: “Both then and now, Joseph has a reputation for being

likely the most right-wing poster on the Coffee Room.”

He’s also one of the nicer ones. And there’s nothing wrong with being right-wing.

Joseph, I actually had you in mind when I wrote this:

“My sincerest thanks and appreciation to those who have stood up for me!”

Thank you for letting me know that I have more to thank you for than I realized!!

“Are you sure a vote of confidence from Joseph will improve her image ;)”

People seem to have this negative attitude towards Joseph – I really don’t see why…

Happygirlygirl – the fact that Rav Falk’s sefer has haskamos does not mean that the Gedolim say that every word in it is halacha.

I just want to point out that if someone sees someone else being attacked, it seems to me that if they don’t say anything, they may also be guilty, like by Kamtza and Bar Kamtza. As hurt as I am when I am attacked, it is even more upsetting when almost no one stands up for me.

My sincerest thanks and appreciation to those who have stood up for me!

Motzei Tisha B’Av I was the only one home and there was no grape juice in the house, so I had to make havdala on wine. I like wine though and it wasn’t such a big deal – I just went to sleep early.

Happygirlygirl – there are no halachos about hair length. You won’t find anything in the Shulchan Aruch or Mishna Berurah about it.

That being said, there are two aspects to tznius:

1. The technical halachos of which there are very few, such as covering your knees.

2. Using your common sense to realize that something is not tznius. Most things fall in this category, and something can be assur mitsad tznius even if you won’t find a specific halacha saying that it is assur.

There is also a third aspect, which is the fact that we are supposed to follow our Gedolim, so if they say something, we have to do it. As far as I know, Rav Falk is not considered one of the Gedolei hador, so his sefer should not be quoted as though it’s halacha. If someone wants to follow it, that is beautiful, as long as they realize it is not halacha.

In terms of the Gedolei Hador, I have not seen or heard them quoted as saying anything about hair length (which doesn’t mean they haven’t said anything). I may have heard some things about sheitel lengths, but I’m not sure of the specifics. I think they are more meikel for people living in the US than people in Eretz Yisrael. I think I heard something about 2 inches below the shoulder in EY, and 4 inches below in chutz L’aretz, but I am not sure, and in case, it might have only been a psak for specific people. But that was sheitels, not hair.

There is also a fourth aspect – minhag hamakom.

IF long hair is a problem it is because of 2 and possibly 4. If the Gedolim have said anything about it (which I don’t think they have) then it may be a problem in terms of #3 as well. It is almost definitely not a problem in terms of #1, unless someone here knows something I don’t know and would like to share it.

Generally speaking when schools won’t accept students, it is because those students do not abide by the school’s standards. It is not about learning full-time or not learning full-time, but about following the school’s standards in terms of tznius and shmiras haayin, etc. A school has a right to set standards. The school is responsible for its students and it is the school’s responsibility if the child ends up being “over” on big issurim as a result of attending the school. A parent has a right to choose a school for their child that lives up to his standards.

Unfortunately, people sometimes don’t want to admit that the school didn’t accept them because of their lack of tznius, so they will come up with other reasons, claiming that the school is prejudiced against them because of x,y, or z, without acknowledging that it is because of their refusal to abide by the school’s rules.

I recently met a lady who was insisting that the reason that none of the local schools accepted her kids was because she was divorced. From looking at her, I could think of plenty of other reasons. In the course of the conversation, it came out that they didn’t accept her kids because she doesn’t cover her hair (and since she doesn’t cover her hair because she is divorced, so to her, that translates as, “they won’t accept my kids because I am divorced.”)

Meno: “Is everyone in the coffee room yeshivish? I mean, even MO people drink coffee sometimes”

Personally, I’m curious to know what the non-Yeshivish people in the CR think about long hair.

I also really liked E.Nesbit’s books when I was a kid, and I think I would still enjoy them today. Good, wholesome, and old-fashioned, but interesting at the same time. I don’t think there were any pritzus issues.

“They even make flashlight keychains if you wanna go all out.”

lol.

I don’t know – he said he was looking for something cheap; that might be too expensive.

Yekke2 -beautifully written post!!!

a book or sefer, flowers, take care of the kids and housework for the day so she can take it easy, go out to eat with her (somewhere inexpensive), hire a babysitter and go out with her anywhere that doesn’t cost or doesn’t cost much like a park, a c.d. that she/he likes, something cute/meaningful from a dollar store type of place with a nice note attached.

“Presumably, Sparkly is looking for adult reading, although I myself love reading the old children’s classics.”

She said she wanted Kosher….

And many adults like reading these books.

I can’t imagine she wants to read Dickens! Is Austen kosher? Don’t know enough about it, but I wasn’t sure. I’m also not sure if it’s up Sparkly’s alley.

Winniethepooh, the “how to become more religious” question did not start off as hypothetical, so I’m not sure that it’s fair for people to keep referring to it.

Just my opinion.